Remington 241 guys. FTE/FTF ... Am I missing something?

FrankenMauser · August 22, 2016, 02:01 AM

I have a 1936 Remington 241 that has been a chronic pain in the backside of several family members for at least 30 years (maybe more).

It has, almost since the first day it came into my family, had an issue with randomly short-stroking and failing to eject. That, in turn, sometimes results in failures to feed when it barely manages to eject. And, on occasion, it fails to feed while stove-piping.

For the record: I have tested with all "power levels" of .22 LR ammunition. From 'standard velocity', to 'high velocity', to 'hyper velocity'; it all runs the same.

In all my tinkering with and cussing at this thing, I've decided that the magazine cutoff is working as intended (the weird toggle link with a pointed hook on the end, that has no spring, but interacts with the top of the slide). And, based on just an 'ejumacated' guess, I believe the recoil spring and firing pin spring to be adequate for the bolt.

However, when running action proving dummies or other real ammunition through the action (when safe to do so), I often see more than one cartridge 'pop' right through the cartridge stop on the feed ramp.

So, I believe the problem to be the cartridge stop. (Totally different design than the Remington 24 and Browning SA-22.)
The spring is strong. I've tried a new replacement, with the same results.
And the cartridge stop looks good. But it may be worn from the ~50 years of unknown use prior to coming into my family.

So... should I go ahead and try to have a cartridge stop reproduced by a machine shop or gunsmith? (I lack the capability to do it myself; and they are not available as replacement parts.)

Or am I missing something else?

Remington74 · August 22, 2016, 05:04 AM

Numrich shows that part as being sold out. Have you tried Jack First gun parts?

I took a look on E-bay and found some listings for 241 parts. Maybe something in there?

Example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Remington-24...MAAOSwkl5XeIDA

T. O'Heir · August 22, 2016, 01:02 PM

To have a cartridge stop reproduced would cost a fortune.
Anything visually unusual with the mag tube or its parts? Or anything odd in the chamber?
Not many aftermarket parts shops even mention the M241, but there's a few.
Model 24 parts fit the 241 too. Not much around though. None made since 1951.
https://www.remington.com/specialty-parts-dealers

FrankenMauser · August 22, 2016, 05:16 PM

I haven't tried Jack First.
Nor had I even heard of a few of the parts companies in that list provided by T.O'Heir. Those that I've contacted thus far don't have what I need. There are a few more for me to check with, and a few that were closed when I tried to call. Thanks for the list.

You are absolutely correct about parts being scarce. The high-wear parts are nearly impossible to get. As such, nearly everyone that I've talked to about 24s and 241s that malfunction has had the same thing to say about them:
1. Part it out.
2. Make the parts from scratch.
3. Spend 5 years waiting for the part(s) to come up for sale somewhere, and pray that they aren't also worn out.

I'll check eBay in a bit. I forget about eBay for parts like this, since I don't like their policies and avoid the business.

---

There's nothing unusual about the magazine, breech bolt, cartridge guide, chamber, or chamber face -- at least visually.

For clarity:
There are two cartridge stops in the rifle (all three versions: 24, 241, SA-22). One (the bolt-actuated 'toggle') stops cartridges that are still in the magazine, which Browning originally called a magazine cutoff, but Remington has had multiple names applied. The other stop is in the cartridge guide (feed ramp), which Browning called a cartridge stop, and Remington typically called the 'cartridge guide stop'.
When digging around the internet, or calling parts suppliers, the two stops are often confused and/or mis-labeled. But the stop in the cartridge guide is what I believe to be the problem.

As far as I can tell, the action runs perfectly unless the cartridge stop prematurely allows a cartridge through. (Used to be about 1 in 10 cartridges would result in a malfunction. Now it's up to five to seven in 10.)
Also, if you are not aware, the 241 uses a cartridge stop design that differs from the early 24s and Browning SA-22. Rather than a complicated bent spring on the cartridge guide (feed ramp), Remington went with a tiny plunger, spring, and center-drilled set screw that install from the outside of the receiver.

There's an image of the three parts and their installation on RFC, here. (Late production 24s and all 241s.)

In comparison to the cartridge stops shown in photos, and the stops that I've seen in rifles for sale in local shops, my pin is definitely shorter and does not protrude into the cartridge guide nearly as much as the others.

I need a lathe...

Scorch · August 22, 2016, 11:38 PM

Call Wisner's. I just bought a bunch of parts for a model 24 last week. Not listed in their catalog, but they will make them anyway.

FrankenMauser · August 22, 2016, 11:58 PM

Ah, good to know.

Anything I've asked about in the past that wasn't listed resulted in the typical "we don't have it and don't make it."

I'll give them a call.

g.willikers · August 23, 2016, 10:18 AM

Boy, to keep messing with the same troublesome gun for 30 years, youse guys must be a real stubborn bunch of folks.

Since this model is a take down type, could there be some mis-alignment between barrel and receiver that's causing the problems?
Just a thought.

FrankenMauser · August 23, 2016, 11:19 AM

Misalignment is possible, but I haven't seen anything to make me suspect there's an issue. It also locks up nice and tight. The adjuster has probably been used a few times over the last 80 years, but that's what it's there for.

And, yes, we're stubborn.
But, while most of the 241s have been ridden hard, put away wet, never cleaned, and left to rot; this one was well cared-for and looks great. It's also a little special, since it is a "pre-Speedmaster" rifle. (First 12,000 or so, from what I've read.)
There used to be some familial 'heritage' that was a motivating factor in keeping the rifle going, but that, unfortunately, is no longer a consideration. (Of course, the details are not important. I only mentioned it because it was a factor for many years.)

FrankenMauser · August 23, 2016, 11:26 AM

Wisner's was a dead-end.

FrankenMauser · August 23, 2016, 11:48 AM

Jack First is making me two of the stops.
$6 and some change, apiece, as of today.

For future reference (mostly for the google hits that this thread will get), in the Jack First catalog, they have it listed as the, "cartridge stop plunger" as part number 113 in their diagram. And the lady wasn't clear about what she was looking at, but she also found their internal part number linked to the part listed elsewhere as "cartridge guide stop plunger".

As mentioned above, it was difficult to drill down to the correct part over the phone, since we had different diagrams with different part numbers. They had the magazine cutoff listed as "cartridge stop" under part number 22 in their diagram.

Dixie Gunsmithing · August 23, 2016, 05:58 PM

Make sure that the firing pin hasn't damaged the breech face of the barrel at the chamber mouth. One can get this from dry firing, and they make a chamber mouth iron to take this out on .22s, if the barrel shows signs of it. If that has happened, it can cause the expanded brass to hang up in the chamber, and cause the problems you're speaking of.

FrankenMauser · August 23, 2016, 10:33 PM

Thanks for the suggestion, but this chamber face is good.
And I do have a chamber iron, if the shows signs of peening in the future.

FrankenMauser · August 27, 2016, 01:15 AM

Sometimes, 0.015" is all it takes...

(Jack First "plungers" left and bottom right. Original top right.)

I have not yet test-fired the rifle, but it fed and ejected perfectly (with and without the barrel installed) with manually-cycled action proving dummies and then several varieties of 36 gr HPs, 38 gr HPs, and 40 gr RNs.

I didn't even have to tweak the part.
And I can't complain about the service. I found shipping to be a bit steep, but I had the parts in my hands less than three days after ordering them, and they were made-to-order. I've never had that happen before with gun parts.

--
I also tried some Colibris, but the short, conical nose doesn't play nicely with this action. ...Not that they should ever be fired in a barrel this long, anyway. (Been there. Done that. Saw the warning on the box. Had to try it.

)

g.willikers · August 27, 2016, 10:08 AM

It looks like you coulda' made one with a nail and washer.

FrankenMauser · August 27, 2016, 03:39 PM

I considered trying to make the part out of drill rod and a washer or sheet steel.
But the geometry is a little more complicated than that.

There's a stepped taper on the long end to keep the spring from binding, and to keep the plunger from moving far enough to come out of the cartridge guide.
There's more to it, as well (very difficult to see in that photo); but that stepped taper, alone, was well worth $6.35 from my perspective.

August 22, 2016, 02:01 AM	#1
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	Remington 241 guys. FTE/FTF ... Am I missing something? I have a 1936 Remington 241 that has been a chronic pain in the backside of several family members for at least 30 years (maybe more). It has, almost since the first day it came into my family, had an issue with randomly short-stroking and failing to eject. That, in turn, sometimes results in failures to feed when it barely manages to eject. And, on occasion, it fails to feed while stove-piping. For the record: I have tested with all "power levels" of .22 LR ammunition. From 'standard velocity', to 'high velocity', to 'hyper velocity'; it all runs the same. In all my tinkering with and cussing at this thing, I've decided that the magazine cutoff is working as intended (the weird toggle link with a pointed hook on the end, that has no spring, but interacts with the top of the slide). And, based on just an 'ejumacated' guess, I believe the recoil spring and firing pin spring to be adequate for the bolt. However, when running action proving dummies or other real ammunition through the action (when safe to do so), I often see more than one cartridge 'pop' right through the cartridge stop on the feed ramp. So, I believe the problem to be the cartridge stop. (Totally different design than the Remington 24 and Browning SA-22.) The spring is strong. I've tried a new replacement, with the same results. And the cartridge stop looks good. But it may be worn from the ~50 years of unknown use prior to coming into my family. So... should I go ahead and try to have a cartridge stop reproduced by a machine shop or gunsmith? (I lack the capability to do it myself; and they are not available as replacement parts.) Or am I missing something else? __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

August 22, 2016, 05:04 AM	#2
Remington74 Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2012 Location: Carthage, NY Posts: 231	Numrich shows that part as being sold out. Have you tried Jack First gun parts? I took a look on E-bay and found some listings for 241 parts. Maybe something in there? Example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Remington-24...MAAOSwkl5XeIDA Last edited by Remington74; August 22, 2016 at 11:31 AM.

August 22, 2016, 01:02 PM	#3
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	To have a cartridge stop reproduced would cost a fortune. Anything visually unusual with the mag tube or its parts? Or anything odd in the chamber? Not many aftermarket parts shops even mention the M241, but there's a few. Model 24 parts fit the 241 too. Not much around though. None made since 1951. https://www.remington.com/specialty-parts-dealers __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

August 22, 2016, 05:16 PM	#4
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	I haven't tried Jack First. Nor had I even heard of a few of the parts companies in that list provided by T.O'Heir. Those that I've contacted thus far don't have what I need. There are a few more for me to check with, and a few that were closed when I tried to call. Thanks for the list. You are absolutely correct about parts being scarce. The high-wear parts are nearly impossible to get. As such, nearly everyone that I've talked to about 24s and 241s that malfunction has had the same thing to say about them: 1. Part it out. 2. Make the parts from scratch. 3. Spend 5 years waiting for the part(s) to come up for sale somewhere, and pray that they aren't also worn out. I'll check eBay in a bit. I forget about eBay for parts like this, since I don't like their policies and avoid the business. --- There's nothing unusual about the magazine, breech bolt, cartridge guide, chamber, or chamber face -- at least visually. For clarity: There are two cartridge stops in the rifle (all three versions: 24, 241, SA-22). One (the bolt-actuated 'toggle') stops cartridges that are still in the magazine, which Browning originally called a magazine cutoff, but Remington has had multiple names applied. The other stop is in the cartridge guide (feed ramp), which Browning called a cartridge stop, and Remington typically called the 'cartridge guide stop'. When digging around the internet, or calling parts suppliers, the two stops are often confused and/or mis-labeled. But the stop in the cartridge guide is what I believe to be the problem. As far as I can tell, the action runs perfectly unless the cartridge stop prematurely allows a cartridge through. (Used to be about 1 in 10 cartridges would result in a malfunction. Now it's up to five to seven in 10.) Also, if you are not aware, the 241 uses a cartridge stop design that differs from the early 24s and Browning SA-22. Rather than a complicated bent spring on the cartridge guide (feed ramp), Remington went with a tiny plunger, spring, and center-drilled set screw that install from the outside of the receiver. There's an image of the three parts and their installation on RFC, here. (Late production 24s and all 241s.) In comparison to the cartridge stops shown in photos, and the stops that I've seen in rifles for sale in local shops, my pin is definitely shorter and does not protrude into the cartridge guide nearly as much as the others. I need a lathe... __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

August 22, 2016, 11:38 PM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Call Wisner's. I just bought a bunch of parts for a model 24 last week. Not listed in their catalog, but they will make them anyway. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

August 22, 2016, 11:58 PM	#6
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	Ah, good to know. Anything I've asked about in the past that wasn't listed resulted in the typical "we don't have it and don't make it." I'll give them a call. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

August 23, 2016, 10:18 AM	#7
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Boy, to keep messing with the same troublesome gun for 30 years, youse guys must be a real stubborn bunch of folks. Since this model is a take down type, could there be some mis-alignment between barrel and receiver that's causing the problems? Just a thought. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

August 23, 2016, 11:19 AM	#8
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	Misalignment is possible, but I haven't seen anything to make me suspect there's an issue. It also locks up nice and tight. The adjuster has probably been used a few times over the last 80 years, but that's what it's there for. And, yes, we're stubborn. But, while most of the 241s have been ridden hard, put away wet, never cleaned, and left to rot; this one was well cared-for and looks great. It's also a little special, since it is a "pre-Speedmaster" rifle. (First 12,000 or so, from what I've read.) There used to be some familial 'heritage' that was a motivating factor in keeping the rifle going, but that, unfortunately, is no longer a consideration. (Of course, the details are not important. I only mentioned it because it was a factor for many years.) __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

August 23, 2016, 11:26 AM	#9
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	Wisner's was a dead-end. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

August 23, 2016, 11:48 AM	#10
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	Jack First is making me two of the stops. $6 and some change, apiece, as of today. For future reference (mostly for the google hits that this thread will get), in the Jack First catalog, they have it listed as the, "cartridge stop plunger" as part number 113 in their diagram. And the lady wasn't clear about what she was looking at, but she also found their internal part number linked to the part listed elsewhere as "cartridge guide stop plunger". As mentioned above, it was difficult to drill down to the correct part over the phone, since we had different diagrams with different part numbers. They had the magazine cutoff listed as "cartridge stop" under part number 22 in their diagram. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

August 23, 2016, 05:58 PM	#11
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Make sure that the firing pin hasn't damaged the breech face of the barrel at the chamber mouth. One can get this from dry firing, and they make a chamber mouth iron to take this out on .22s, if the barrel shows signs of it. If that has happened, it can cause the expanded brass to hang up in the chamber, and cause the problems you're speaking of.

August 23, 2016, 10:33 PM	#12
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	Thanks for the suggestion, but this chamber face is good. And I do have a chamber iron, if the shows signs of peening in the future. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

August 27, 2016, 10:08 AM	#14
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	It looks like you coulda' made one with a nail and washer. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

August 27, 2016, 03:39 PM	#15
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	I considered trying to make the part out of drill rod and a washer or sheet steel. But the geometry is a little more complicated than that. There's a stepped taper on the long end to keep the spring from binding, and to keep the plunger from moving far enough to come out of the cartridge guide. There's more to it, as well (very difficult to see in that photo); but that stepped taper, alone, was well worth $6.35 from my perspective. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.