38 Spl

[Bucksnort1]

I'm loading 158 grain, jacketed hollow points, with cannelure, for 38 Special. For years, I have loaded various .357 bullets. I always seat to the cannelure because I see no instructions to the contrary. For the cartridge I'm loading today, the one referenced above, the overall length is shorter than the recommended maximum of 1.550". This doesn't create a problem with the cartridge in the cylinder but am I ok seating to the cannelure in this situation? Are there any pressure problems. Starting grains for Unique is 5.0 which is what I'm loading.

[Catfish]

You should have no problems at all as 5 gr. is the starting load in my Sierra manual. Personaly I pay no attention to the canalure on any bullet I load handgun or rifle. I do load for some rounds that require a heavy crimp to keep bullets from pulling and still get better accuracy from watching oal instead of crimping in cannalure.

[Bucksnort1]

Catfish, thanks. My recipe came from my Sierra book too. I have another question that has been on my mind a lot. I think I know the answer, but I'll ask anyway.

The Sierra book, for the 38 spl., 158 grain, shows two styles of bullets, neither of which are hollow points but both are jacketed soft point bullets. Is there a problem using the recipe we discussed with a 158 grain jacketed "hollow point" bullet? It seems the style of jacketed bullet should make no difference if the weights are the same.

[noylj]

If data had to be bullet specific, there would be no reloading.
All lead-core jacketed bullets of a given weight are loaded with the same data, provided you start at the starting load.
The manual's COL is NOT a recommendation—the most it is a an indication of a not to decrease below COL, since a shorter COL could produce higher pressure. For testing, most companies prefer a shorter COL than a reloader will/should use so the data is more of a "worst case." Since you don't have the exact bullet or components' lot numbers the test lab used, and particularly not the same gun, your mileage will be slightly different.
You should ALWAYS check at least two independent sources for load data and start with the lowest starting load and work up.
Alliant 2013 data shows 7.7gn Unique max of 158n jacketed bullet, so start is about 6.8gn. Thus, based on your source and mine, starting at 5.0gn should be a very good place to start.

[Jim243]

It seems the style of jacketed bullet should make no difference if the weights are the same.

As to using the same weight of powder for bullets of the same weight, that is true. As to OAL for different profile bullets, that is not true.

Hollow point bullets will have a slightly different OAL than that of FMJ. It will really depend on the construction and profile of each bullet. What I do when I have no direct information as to the OAL for a specific bullet, is measure the bullets for A) the FMJ and the hollow point and B) subtract the difference between the two.

Example: FMJ OAL = 1.550, --- FMJ bullet = .451 and Hollow Point bullet = ..446, and subtract the difference from the OAL, that would give a Hollow Point OAL of = 1.445. (0.451 - 0.446 = 0.005 or 1.550 - 0.005 = 1.445).

Since you are seating to the cannelure and will have a proper crimp on the bullet as well as using a starting number of grains of powder, you should have no problem with your load. As always start low and work your load up a little power at a time (while checking for pressure signs) until you have just the right load for your gun.

Stay safe and shoot straight.
Jim

[TimSr]

Essentially OAL is measuring seating depth by measuring the part of the bullet that is NOT seated. The specified OAL works great provided the bullet you are using is exactly the same shape and diminsions as the one specified in the reloading data. Actual seating septh is the part of the bullet that gets buried in the case, and you'll usually find a lot more uniformity between bullets of the same weight if you measure or compare the base of the bullet below the cannelure. Long pointy bullets of the same weight will have a longer OAL than a short, flat nosed bullet of the same seating depth. Seating in the cannelure is more likely to give you the same seating depth as another bullet of the same weight than measuring OAL.

[Bucksnort1]

Noylj,

You have brought up a good point which connects directly with my first posting on this topic and that is, if I seat to the cannelure, my COL is shorter than the posted data. I do have factory FMJ plinker .38s which measure 1.549

As I said, I've been loading jacketed .357 bullets for handguns for a long time and I've never had a problem with seating to the cannelure. Maybe I've been lucky. I just checked the length of Federal factory HPs and came up with 1.429, which is shorter than the 1.550 recommended.

[Bucksnort1]

Jim243,

Your last paragraph is what I want to know. For me to ask this question reminds me of going through life spelling a simple word thousands of times then one day, you look at the word and wonder if it's spelled correctly. I knew I was doing it correctly but suddenly I began wondering. Thanks, everyone, for your input.

The Firing Line blog is wonderful. Does anyone know if it is related to the Firing Line gun store in Aurora, CO?

TimSR, good point about the dimension of the bullet below the cannelure.

[Bucksnort1]

Noylj,

You have brought up a good point which connects directly with my first posting on this topic and that is, if I seat to the cannelure, my COL is shorter than the posted data. I do have factory FMJ plinker .38s which measure 1.549
As I said, I've been loading jacketed .357 bullets for handguns for a long time and I've never had a problem with seating to the cannelure. Maybe I've been lucky. I just checked the length of Federal factory HPs and came up with 1.429, which is shorter than the 1.550 recommended.

[Gadawg88]

You will tie yourself in knots comparing factory ammo col to load data which almost certainly uses a different bullet. You can compare two FMJ HP bullets of the same weight from two different manufacturers, I.e. Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dots and they will have very different profiles and length. Seat the bullet you are using to the cannelure. That is why it is there. Start your charge at the min listed and work up in increments and you should be fine. I always cross reference between as many sources as I can (manuals, bullet or powder manufacturer online database) to arrive at a comfortable starting point and end point.

[mikld]

I began reloading .38 Specials in '69 and seated all the bullets to the crimp groove/cannalure for many years before I went on line and saw so many concerns about revolver OAL. I think the bullet designers did not just haphazardly locate the cannalure/crimp groove but took into consideration case volume (after seating) and "normal" OAL if the seated bullet/completed round, and I continue to seat my bullets to the cannalure (if I reload jacketed bullets which hasn't happened in 11 years) or crimp groove. I cannot tell anyone what the OAL is on any of my revolver rounds (.38 Spec., .357 Mag., 44 Special, .44 Mag.) because I haven't measured the OAL in prolly 15 years, and I measured then just out of curiosity, not need...

[Salmoneye]

Originally Posted by Pogybait

I'm loading 158 grain, jacketed hollow points, with cannelure, for 38 Special....Starting grains for Unique is 5.0 which is what I'm loading.

If you are indeed loading .38spcl, and NOT .357 mag, then 5gr of Unique under a 158gr is right at +P territory in the manuals I am looking at...

Current Alliant max load for 158gr jacketed in a .38spcl using Unique is 4.7gr...And that is for a LSWC, not jacketed...

2004 Alliant paper manual give a +P max for a 160gr Jacketed at 4.4gr Unique...

Hornady #4 gives a +P max of 4.7gr Unique with a 158gr XTP...

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...3&cartridge=26

Originally Posted by noylj

Alliant 2013 data shows 7.7gn Unique max of 158n jacketed bullet, so start is about 6.8gn.

That is data for a .357 Mag...

[Bucksnort1]

Salmoneye,

Now you've opened a whole new can of worms and that is the differences for the same bullet from different manuals. The Sierra Reloading Manual, Edition V, calls for a starting load of 5.0 grains of Unique behind a 158 grain JHP bullet but mentions nothing about +P.

If you reload properly and have a horrible accident and you sue the manufacturer, you can bet their lawyer will ask if you used the same gun the manufacturer used. Most of us cannot afford to buy six or seven 38 Special handguns so we can choose the proper weapon when shooting a specific manufacturer's recipe; therefore, I can only assume that all starting loads for my 38, 158 grain JHP from all manufacturers, unless noted otherwise in their manuals, will be safe.

A friend loads 380 or 9mm, I don't recall which. He has two manuals. One calls for X grains of X powder as a starting load while the other manual uses this starting load and powder as their maximum. Go figure.

I LOVE BIG OIL AND BIG BUSINESSES AND SMALL BUSINESSES AND I BUY AMERICAN WHEN I CAN.

[Bucksnort1]

Mikld - prolly - your aging yourself. You must have read Sunday funny pages when you were a kid. Your login in name should be Pogo.

[Lost Sheep]

TimSr in post 6 is has his thumb on the pulse of the question.

The dimension, O.A.L. or C.O.A.L. is intended to inform the loader where to set the front end of the bullet to get the desired location for the REAR end of the bullet (for which there is no easy and practical way to measure directly).

It is the volume underneath the bullet, where the powder burns and creates pressure that we (as loaders) are concerned about. The smaller that volume, the quicker and higher the pressure goes. So, you don't want to set a bullet too deeply (on the BACK end) or you will get pressure problems.

On the other hand, you don't want to set a bullet to far our or you will get feeding problems up the feed ramp or magazine (for autoloaders, lever actions and such) or cylinder clearance problems (for revolvers) But the front end of the cartridge is easy to measure.

Hollow point bullets and pointier bullets will set the base of the bullet deeper than a flatter-nosed bullet of the same weight and overall length (all other things being equal) and the brass being the same, too.

I feel it is remiss of loading manuals to not publish the overall length of the BULLET (the slug, or projectile) from nose to base, but that would take more ink than most of us would find useful, so they don't.

As was pointed out, a small variation in that enclosed volume is not really significant if you start at the low end of the recommended charge weights.

Lost Sheep

[Nick_C_S]

I began reloading .38 Specials in '69 and seated all the bullets to the crimp groove/cannalure for many years before I went on line and saw so many concerns about revolver OAL. I think the bullet designers did not just haphazardly locate the cannalure/crimp groove but took into consideration case volume (after seating) and "normal" OAL if the seated bullet/completed round, and I continue to seat my bullets to the cannalure (if I reload jacketed bullets which hasn't happened in 11 years) or crimp groove. I cannot tell anyone what the OAL is on any of my revolver rounds (.38 Spec., .357 Mag., 44 Special, .44 Mag.) because I haven't measured the OAL in prolly 15 years, and I measured then just out of curiosity, not need...

This is me. Except change "'69" to "'84." And I still load jacketed bullets.

When I first started loading in '84, it was all revolver rounds. I bought a starter kit, but didn't even know why a set of calipers were included. The thought of measuring the OAL of a cartridge never crossed my mind.

Fast forward 30 years, and the calipers still rest in their case when I'm loading cannelured revolver bullets. Just seat to the middle of the cannelure.