what's the difference between Bullseye & 231 charge for charge ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I'm getting ready to load some 38 Long Colt for my conversion revolvers... purpose will be for occasional CAS use...

1st off, I can't really find any smokeless load data for 38 Long Colt, but my retired mentor buddy suggested looking at 38 S&W data, & going a max of 10-25% hotter...

I'm looking at 3 grains of either Bullseye or 231... I see the Bullseye offers higher velocity for the same charge, but neither manual has any pressure data...

I'd like to keep as low a pressure as possible but get at least 600 fps

I'm curious what pressure / burn differences are between the two powders at 3 grains, behind a 125 grain lead bullet...

[SHR970]

296 is waaaayyyyyyy too slow for what you want to do. 3 gr. and you WILL get a squib. Try W231 instead.

[mikld]

Whoa! Yer talking about two powders that are pretty close to the opposite ends of handgun powders. Bullseye is a pretty fast powder, and W296/H110 is a slow magnum powder (it is highly recommended to not reduce W296 charges).

I would recommend you do a bit more research and find a specific load for a specific weight bullet in your .38 LC. There's info out there somewhere, try google. Or check with some of your CAS buddies.

FWIW; My Lyman 48th shows loads for Bullseye in a .38 S&W to be 3.0 max. for a 120 gr. lead bullet and 2.6 gr. max. for a 160 gr lead bullet. So, mebbe rethink your 3.0 gr. Bullseye charge?

[Magnum Wheel Man]

yep... sorry... senior moment... 231 is what I meant to type in...

the 38 Long Colt case is nearly 1.5 times the capacity of the 38 S&W... & I always err on the side of caution... & would likely start with 2.5 grains... was just thinking around 3 grains would likely be where I ended up...

back to the original question... the powders seem to end up close to the same charge weights in the manuals I have, with Bullseye having higher velocities... but no pressures listed... I know some manuals have a tendency to favor some powders more... but I'm curious what I would see for pressure differences between the powders with equal charges ( 2.5 or 3 grains ) behind a 125 grain lead bullet...

[Salmoneye]

Use at your own risk:

http://handloads.com/loaddata/defaul...Powder&Source=

More detailed info here:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloadi...long-colt.html

[Magnum Wheel Man]

thanks for the links

[Nick_C_S]

This is a good thread for me because I'm going to start loading 38 Long Colt too. I would not be apt to use 38 S&W data, however. (I have used 38 S&W data as a starting point for 38 Short Colt - minus 20% or so, as a starting point.) I'm probably going to use 38 Special data and go minus 30% or so. I haven't dug that deep into it just yet. I just got the brass recently. That's why I like this thread because I would like to bounce the same thing off of other loaders.

As for the difference between Bullseye and W231 I do have some "for instance" data with 38 Special. . .

The following data is for 38 Special; not 38 Long Colt:

With a 148g DEWC, 2.9g of Bullseye yields 720 fps.
With a 148g DEWC, 3.4g of W231 yields 724 fps.

With a 158 LSWC, 3.2g of Bullseye yields 735 fps.
With a 158 LSWC, 3.7g of W231 yields 744 fps.

The test gun was a S&W Model 67 with a 4" bbl.

I know there's an "apples n oranges" thing here. But it does give some indication of the energy and/or yield difference between Bullseye and W231.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Thanks for the info...

anyone out there with that fancy puter program that can calculate the pressure differences ???

don't know if you guys caught the pics in my other thread, but this is the pair of guns fresh from machining, that I'll be shooting these in... cylinder stock could handle 357 magnum, but the base guns are just Pieta Colt clones, & nothing extra was done to strengthen the guns, so I'm looking to keep the pressures low, so I don't start peening the wedge area...

[Jim Watson]

Grain for grain, Bullseye will likelier give higher pressure and higher velocity than 231.

Speed for speed, there is not much difference. Adjust the load of each one individually for 700 fps and the chamber pressure will be very close.

If loading to low velocity - if 600 fps is enough - Bullseye will be more consistent. At least it is in .45.

[Nick_C_S]

Adjust the load of each one individually for 700 fps and the chamber pressure will be very close.

I agree.

For the 148 DEWC 38 Special loads I listed above, both the Bullseye and W231 create "cylinder blow back" (not sure if there's a better term for it) as it is. Both generate pressures too low to keep the brass expanded up against the charge hole wall during the burn cycle.

As an interesting aside note: Bullseye will foul the charge holes to the point were it's difficult to insert fresh ammo, after about 150 rounds. The W231 creates no fouling to speak of.

Sorry I don't have a pressure data program for you. It's my understanding that Quick Load (?) or whatever it's called isn't that accurate for straight walled cartridges anyway. I'm not sure how vital it is to know the pressure.

[Unclenick]

Exactly. The burn rate isn't the only difference. There is grain shape and energy content. The two just don't have the same pressure curve shapes as a result. So where a weight ratio of 1:1.03 may work at one load level, it could be 1:1.10 at another load level.

Generally, you will find Bullseye ignites a little more easily, which is why it produces better velocity consistency in some of the really light loads.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

The .38 S&W is not a great model. The case has 12 grains water overflow capacity vs. 17 for the Long Colt. That difference doesn't sound huge, but when you look at how much room is left over after seating the Lee 125 grain RF, the difference is around 3:1 in powder space.

For the Lee 125 grain RF nose bullet widened to .361, QuickLOAD has 3 grains of Bullseye producing 8254 psi and 766 fps from a 4" revolver barrel. For 3 grains of 231 it give 7747 psi and 734 fps. The 231 load needed to match velocity is 3.11 grains. The load needed to match velocity is 3.16 grains. So, in these instances it is a 1:1.037 for pressure and 1:1.053 for velocity. Both loads are well below the 13,000 psi maximum.

Note that QuickLOAD has data from tested powder purchases and not from exact data powder. Allow that the small ratio can vary from lot-to-lot just as the .38 Special ratios are different in the Lyman book. I would suggest you can take a chronograph and load either powder to 750 fps and be fine with pressure.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

thanks for the replies guys... just what I was looking for...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I loaded up a box of the 38 Long Colt cartridges last night after my new carbide die set got here, & I got them set up... a little unsettling putting only 3 grains of 231 in that case ( about 1/4 or 1/5 of the available case capacity )... dies came with some load data albeit not for 231 or Bullseye, but did have data for Trailboss... 2 grains of Trailboss might be 1/3 to 1/2 have a case full, & closer to what I strive for... bullets I'm using are 125 grain lead flat points...

I may do another box of 50 with Bullseye, as per NICK, it may be more consistent with light loads... will also have to see if I have any of the powders of the loads listed with the dies... I'm not positive, but think Universal, Clays, & 2-3 other powders were listed

... but I'll get the Navies sighted in with the hand weighed 231 cartridges, & go from there... supposed to be close to 50* on Saturday, so I plan on taking the new gals out to the range for the 1st time...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

so I loaded up 50 rounds of each of these...

2.0 grains of Trailboss
3.0 grains of W-231
3.0 grains of Bullseye

the 231 is a little more dense than the Bullseye... a 0.3cc dipper gives 3.0 grains of 231 pretty consistently ( though I weighed each charge ), it took more than a dipper full to get 3 grains of Bullseye... a 0.5 CC dipper threw pretty consistent charges of 2 grains of Trailboss...

all cases used a CCI 500 primer, & all used a 125 LFP bullets

this target shows my results ( with the fog & moisture, I didn't pull the chrony out, but all "seemed similar in recoil, noise, & velocity, as best I could tell )

the Trailboss, & 231 burned cleaner ( less sooting on the cases, than the Bullseye ) but at least with these particular charges, Bullseye may have a slight edge on accuracy...

This target shot at 25 ft with my forearms rested on my chrony table to steady...

the top row was shot with the revolver serial ending in 3, the bottom row shot with the serial ending in 5