Mauser 98 Missfiring - Page 2

Varmitzapper · November 7, 2007, 07:28 PM

Try visiting Mauser Central.com
Post your question there. Those guys live and breath Mausers.
Best i've seen on the net.

**4V50 Gary** · November 10, 2007, 10:12 PM

Thorough cleaning and good ammunition was all that was required?

Sometimes that's not at all surprising. About 90% of all gun malfunctions may be attributed to the weapon being dirty or poorly maintained. Then again there's bad ammo too.

bigbird34 · November 11, 2007, 07:37 PM

Well, I brought my son up to the range last weekend (friday) to show him his gun was fixed.....unfortunatley, after several rounds the gun misfired again,again,and again.....

So I thought it might be bad primers,I could not remember what vintage the primers were ......

So today I loaded up 20 more rounds,paying close attention to everything,case prep,primers used,shoulder length and overall length ....all 20 are good to go...

I setup my target at 100 yards,the 8mm is sighted in,I feel confident....number one thru number six fire without a hitch ....number seven does not fire

what the hell,primer is indented but ,I didn't get the "click" I was expecting ,I rechambered the shell and it fired ???? The next five shells fired also ,for a total of 12 firing I had one missfire ,NOT GOOD ODDS !
Well I think I need a new firing pin and spring ,but I don't really know what the standard lenght of the firing pin should be,so I looked up one on Gunbroker.com,the seller states 7-1/4" long ,my F.P. is a tad longer (7-3/8"o.a.l.) so I assume my firing pin is good ??? Then I started looking at springs,a surplus spring measured 5-1/4 inches,(mine is 5 inches ??? my spring that is

anyhow if you got to Midwayusa.com they sell 3 different springs,a 24,26 and 30 pound spring ??? which one should I purchase ??? 26 pound seems like average,but I'm not sure what one to get .
Anyhow any and all advice will be weighed ,before I make a purchase ....my son used my 338-06 this past weekend so there is no rush to get the mauser repaired....I just want to get it ready for next fall,and I want to be 100% confident that it will work correctly for my son......TIA Bigbird34

Harry Bonar · November 12, 2007, 05:56 PM

Naw!
I smell an amunition problem or a handloading problem! Any Mauser that's properly chambered has never misfired except with old ammo!
I've had old corrosive stuff that would go "click------------boom" quite a while later, but never one with factory or good lillitary ammo!
Something's fishy here. Even one with everything wrong (which is exceedingly rare) will hold the shell by the extractor enough to fire!

Harry B.

PzGren · November 13, 2007, 06:20 AM

Quote:

what the hell,primer is indented but ,I didn't get the "click" I was expecting ,I rechambered the shell and it fired ????

That is generally the sign for a primer not seated deep enough and for hard primers.
Somehow I suspect the primer seating to be responsible for your problems, to eliminate all possibilities, ream your primer pockets and make sure that the primer is seated deeper than the case head - unless you already do that.

bigbird34 · November 13, 2007, 07:30 AM

PZgren,the primer pockets were all cleaned by "me" primers were installed using a RCBS hand priming tool .....I'm not new at this, I have primed thousands of pieces of brass....all the primers looked alike when completed .....

I am leaning towards buying the 26 pound spring ,what is your opinion on my choice ?

TIA Bigbird34

PzGren · November 13, 2007, 02:54 PM

Bigbird,

the 26 lbs spring sounds like a good way to eliminate the next possibility.

This is just a wild guess but how is the exractor tension when you take the bolt out and keep a cartridge under the extractor?

James K · November 13, 2007, 06:58 PM

Not to flagellate a deceased equine, but I mentioned firing pin protrusion a while back and it sort of vanished from the discussion. Has it been measured?

Jim

bigbird34 · November 13, 2007, 08:17 PM

Yes! Jim it was discussed in my original post app.055" ....at this time I am going to try the 26 lb spring and see what happens,time is on my side (but shooting in the snow does not thrill me

)....I can't check the extractor tension,as the bolt is apart and in a ziplock bag on my desk,to remind me to order a spring .....Wolfe makes after market springs,available thru Midway,so I think I'll order one .....this repair will either be right or wrong ....I'll let you know! Tia Bigbird34

Jimro · November 13, 2007, 08:59 PM

quick way to check if a Mauser firing pin is long enough, pull the bolt, trigger the shroud to go to the "fired" position. Measure pin protrusion with a dime and a nickel. The pin should jut out further than the dime, less than the nickel.

Jimro

Harry Bonar · November 14, 2007, 09:20 PM

Sir:
Gentlemen! There is just something VERY, VERY fishy here! 98 Mausers DO NOT miss-fire unless there is a GREAT DEAL wrong with them!
Check and see if the striker assembly is screwed clear in.
Check the headspace.
Check the caliber.
Get fresh factory ammo!
Firing pin protrusion is .055-.060?
It'll go bang!
Harry B.

Harry Bonar · November 14, 2007, 09:36 PM

Sir:
Are you sure your bolt handle is going CLEAR down? Did someone weld a new one on? If they did that could be the trouble - not being fit all the way down to original level, - that can cause it. Is the handle hitting the wood stock>
Harry B. Something simple is wrong!

Harry Bonar · November 14, 2007, 10:03 PM

Sir:
When you resize your fired brass do you unscrew the striker mechanism and take a sized case, insert it under the extractor and see if when the bolt is closed you have any end-play in the bolt with the case in the chamber - you should FEEL the bolt close on the sized case (NO, NOT A LOADED ROUND!
Harry B.

**Unclenick** · November 15, 2007, 03:52 PM

Bigbird34.

I was double-checking the specs in Kuhnhausen. He puts the firing pin protrusion spec. between 0.055" minimum and 0.065" maximum and warns of the need to replace any pin with less than 0.055" protrusion. In post number one you said your's was between 0.050" and 0.055". Kuhnhausen is adamant that it needs replacement below the minimum. I would see if I couldn't borrow a depth micrometer and get a more exact measurement? I will speculate that Kuhnhausen's adamance is based not so much on, say, 0.050" protrusion being too litlte for ignition, but that a pin that starts out longer than that and sets back over time is likely losing proper nose contour.

Reviewing Kuhnhausen's misfire list, it also includes any bend in the firing pin, weak spring, excess headspace and an oversize firing pin hole (port) worn into the bolt. He comments that the most accurate rifles have 0.002"-0.003" firing pin port clearance. You will see crater rims (cratering) of your primers if the port is really wide.

Unless I am not seeing it, you have not mentioned what your primers are? About 20 years ago when I first got my Dillon Square Deal, I had to give up on CCI primers with it because it just didn't consistently bottom them out in my cases. The harder military brass cases in particular, even after cutting out the crimp, proved difficult with the slightly harder CCI cups. I hate to recommend a change in priming tool, but if this is your problem, K&M's Markel tool is the only one I know that absolutely positively lets you feel the primer cup touchdown on the brass in the flashhole. The priming tool built into the Forster/Bonanza Co-ax press is the only one I know that positively forces the primer 0.004" below grade, as it were, of the case head. Either tool will make sure your primers are where they should be. Going to a softer cup, such as the Federal primer (generally considered among the most sensitive primers, too), would be another approach to take if you aren't using them already?

The headspace thing still needs to be checked. As a shortcut, you can neck-size-only a few cases and see if that helps?

Nick

bigbird34 · November 18, 2007, 10:23 PM

Gentlemen thanks for all of your advice so far....

1).The head space was checked by a gunsmith,all ok.
2).The latest brass tested was all R-P.
3).The primers were this years Winchester L.R. primers.
4).The new 26# spring came in from midway,it is installed in the bolt,and I have fired the firing pin into spent brass primers,and there is a considerable difference in the primer indent (The gun has not fired live ammo yet!).
5).Off to the range Monday or Tuesday ,to test fire ...if it fails, I'll order a new firing pin,as when these missfires first occured,It was brought to my attention that the f.p.'s can wear from hard primers,time,and improper dissasembly and reassembly ...my firing pin measures at the questionable measurement/length .....
6).The new 26# wolf spring was longer then the original by about app.1" and took a little muscle to compress....and in the next 48 or so hours we'll know if I'm a). right,b).wrong.....

Thanks again for all your help,Bigbird34

Harry Bonar · November 19, 2007, 04:57 PM

Sirs:
This isn't over yet!
Harry B.

bigbird34 · November 29, 2007, 06:43 PM

Well Harry,I love a challenge,and the Mauser is turning into that, "a challenge"....the 26 pond spring was installed and we went to the range and fired the mauser .....I don't like the 26 pound spring ....I fired a 1" group at 100 yards ,but I just don't like that heavy spring ......the rounds that would not fire "fired" ,and the remaining rounds that "I" loaded fired also ...we had one round that would not go off ,no matter what !
So, Based on the information provided by another poster I measured the firing pin protrusion ~.053",still kinda short.....so I took the bolt apart again,and had a machine shop measure the OAL length of the firing pin 7.322"...then on auction arms I found Mauser firing pins for sale and this nice gentlemen had me measure from the shoulder of "MY" firing pin to the end of the firing pin .....his is longer and mine is about .020" of an inch short (Don't tell my wife)....well a new firing pin is on it's way (from Alaska) I'll probably see it in Feb ,so I can go shoot in the snow (NOT) ....
I also started looking at the ole R-P brass I have been using,and once primed the primer is abot.008" of an inch recessed into the primer pocket,again probably more than should be .....so when the new firing pin arrives,and installed ,back to the range with 20 reloads ,and possibly(new factory loads ,OR new factory brass that I reload) (this is up to my son) it's his gun....but there is just not enough time in the day here in the cold north east to do all I need to do ,before we're up to our armpits in snow ,so getting ready for this winter is high on the list now,but I'll keep you all posted on my Mauser adventures .....Happy Holidays,Bigbird34

Harry Bonar · November 29, 2007, 09:06 PM

Sir:
Happy new year and have a merry christmas.
I so hope you get your rifle straightened out - I'm sure you will!
It sounds like it shoots well - better than most.

When I seat my primers I don't worry about measuring how deep they go - primers ought to be seated until they "stop" in the pocket - many of us want to "pre-stress" the mixture slightly. In all my primer seating I've never found one seated that way, fail, or be above the face of the cartridge!
And, most important - I want during full length resizing to feel the bolt close on the case! This assures you're at the datun line at the shoulder and against the bolt-face - loads tend to be more accurate that way because you're aligning everything on center. (hopefully). Be sure to keep all of us posted on progress - we'll figure it out.
Harry B.

P.S. Really, it doesn't matter if the pin strike is slightly "off-center" - matter of fact that lets the fin go against the anvil.

November 10, 2007, 10:12 PM	#27
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,840	Thorough cleaning and good ammunition was all that was required? Sometimes that's not at all surprising. About 90% of all gun malfunctions may be attributed to the weapon being dirty or poorly maintained. Then again there's bad ammo too. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

November 11, 2007, 07:37 PM	#28
bigbird34 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2007 Location: N.W.Vermont Posts: 291	Missfires continue Well, I brought my son up to the range last weekend (friday) to show him his gun was fixed.....unfortunatley, after several rounds the gun misfired again,again,and again..... So I thought it might be bad primers,I could not remember what vintage the primers were ...... So today I loaded up 20 more rounds,paying close attention to everything,case prep,primers used,shoulder length and overall length ....all 20 are good to go... I setup my target at 100 yards,the 8mm is sighted in,I feel confident....number one thru number six fire without a hitch ....number seven does not fire what the hell,primer is indented but ,I didn't get the "click" I was expecting ,I rechambered the shell and it fired ???? The next five shells fired also ,for a total of 12 firing I had one missfire ,NOT GOOD ODDS ! Well I think I need a new firing pin and spring ,but I don't really know what the standard lenght of the firing pin should be,so I looked up one on Gunbroker.com,the seller states 7-1/4" long ,my F.P. is a tad longer (7-3/8"o.a.l.) so I assume my firing pin is good ??? Then I started looking at springs,a surplus spring measured 5-1/4 inches,(mine is 5 inches ??? my spring that is anyhow if you got to Midwayusa.com they sell 3 different springs,a 24,26 and 30 pound spring ??? which one should I purchase ??? 26 pound seems like average,but I'm not sure what one to get . Anyhow any and all advice will be weighed ,before I make a purchase ....my son used my 338-06 this past weekend so there is no rush to get the mauser repaired....I just want to get it ready for next fall,and I want to be 100% confident that it will work correctly for my son......TIA Bigbird34

November 12, 2007, 05:56 PM	#29
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	mauser misfire Naw! I smell an amunition problem or a handloading problem! Any Mauser that's properly chambered has never misfired except with old ammo! I've had old corrosive stuff that would go "click------------boom" quite a while later, but never one with factory or good lillitary ammo! Something's fishy here. Even one with everything wrong (which is exceedingly rare) will hold the shell by the extractor enough to fire! Harry B.

November 13, 2007, 07:30 AM	#31
bigbird34 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2007 Location: N.W.Vermont Posts: 291	Primer pocket PZgren,the primer pockets were all cleaned by "me" primers were installed using a RCBS hand priming tool .....I'm not new at this, I have primed thousands of pieces of brass....all the primers looked alike when completed ..... I am leaning towards buying the 26 pound spring ,what is your opinion on my choice ? TIA Bigbird34

November 13, 2007, 08:17 PM	#34
bigbird34 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2007 Location: N.W.Vermont Posts: 291	Protrusion Yes! Jim it was discussed in my original post app.055" ....at this time I am going to try the 26 lb spring and see what happens,time is on my side (but shooting in the snow does not thrill me)....I can't check the extractor tension,as the bolt is apart and in a ziplock bag on my desk,to remind me to order a spring .....Wolfe makes after market springs,available thru Midway,so I think I'll order one .....this repair will either be right or wrong ....I'll let you know! Tia Bigbird34

November 7, 2007, 07:28 PM	#26
Varmitzapper Member Join Date: February 13, 2007 Location: G-Boro NJ Posts: 19	Try visiting Mauser Central.com Post your question there. Those guys live and breath Mausers. Best i've seen on the net.

November 13, 2007, 02:54 PM	#32
PzGren Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2001 Posts: 1,260	Bigbird, the 26 lbs spring sounds like a good way to eliminate the next possibility. This is just a wild guess but how is the exractor tension when you take the bolt out and keep a cartridge under the extractor?

November 13, 2007, 06:58 PM	#33
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Not to flagellate a deceased equine, but I mentioned firing pin protrusion a while back and it sort of vanished from the discussion. Has it been measured? Jim

November 13, 2007, 08:59 PM	#35
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	quick way to check if a Mauser firing pin is long enough, pull the bolt, trigger the shroud to go to the "fired" position. Measure pin protrusion with a dime and a nickel. The pin should jut out further than the dime, less than the nickel. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 14, 2007, 09:20 PM	#36
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	Mauser Sir: Gentlemen! There is just something VERY, VERY fishy here! 98 Mausers DO NOT miss-fire unless there is a GREAT DEAL wrong with them! Check and see if the striker assembly is screwed clear in. Check the headspace. Check the caliber. Get fresh factory ammo! Firing pin protrusion is .055-.060? It'll go bang! Harry B.

November 14, 2007, 09:36 PM	#37
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	98 Sir: Are you sure your bolt handle is going CLEAR down? Did someone weld a new one on? If they did that could be the trouble - not being fit all the way down to original level, - that can cause it. Is the handle hitting the wood stock> Harry B. Something simple is wrong!

November 14, 2007, 10:03 PM	#38
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	98 Sir: When you resize your fired brass do you unscrew the striker mechanism and take a sized case, insert it under the extractor and see if when the bolt is closed you have any end-play in the bolt with the case in the chamber - you should FEEL the bolt close on the sized case (NO, NOT A LOADED ROUND! Harry B.

November 15, 2007, 03:52 PM	#39
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Bigbird34. I was double-checking the specs in Kuhnhausen. He puts the firing pin protrusion spec. between 0.055" minimum and 0.065" maximum and warns of the need to replace any pin with less than 0.055" protrusion. In post number one you said your's was between 0.050" and 0.055". Kuhnhausen is adamant that it needs replacement below the minimum. I would see if I couldn't borrow a depth micrometer and get a more exact measurement? I will speculate that Kuhnhausen's adamance is based not so much on, say, 0.050" protrusion being too litlte for ignition, but that a pin that starts out longer than that and sets back over time is likely losing proper nose contour. Reviewing Kuhnhausen's misfire list, it also includes any bend in the firing pin, weak spring, excess headspace and an oversize firing pin hole (port) worn into the bolt. He comments that the most accurate rifles have 0.002"-0.003" firing pin port clearance. You will see crater rims (cratering) of your primers if the port is really wide. Unless I am not seeing it, you have not mentioned what your primers are? About 20 years ago when I first got my Dillon Square Deal, I had to give up on CCI primers with it because it just didn't consistently bottom them out in my cases. The harder military brass cases in particular, even after cutting out the crimp, proved difficult with the slightly harder CCI cups. I hate to recommend a change in priming tool, but if this is your problem, K&M's Markel tool is the only one I know that absolutely positively lets you feel the primer cup touchdown on the brass in the flashhole. The priming tool built into the Forster/Bonanza Co-ax press is the only one I know that positively forces the primer 0.004" below grade, as it were, of the case head. Either tool will make sure your primers are where they should be. Going to a softer cup, such as the Federal primer (generally considered among the most sensitive primers, too), would be another approach to take if you aren't using them already? The headspace thing still needs to be checked. As a shortcut, you can neck-size-only a few cases and see if that helps? Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; November 15, 2007 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Added information

November 18, 2007, 10:23 PM	#40
bigbird34 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2007 Location: N.W.Vermont Posts: 291	New spring installed Gentlemen thanks for all of your advice so far.... 1).The head space was checked by a gunsmith,all ok. 2).The latest brass tested was all R-P. 3).The primers were this years Winchester L.R. primers. 4).The new 26# spring came in from midway,it is installed in the bolt,and I have fired the firing pin into spent brass primers,and there is a considerable difference in the primer indent (The gun has not fired live ammo yet!). 5).Off to the range Monday or Tuesday ,to test fire ...if it fails, I'll order a new firing pin,as when these missfires first occured,It was brought to my attention that the f.p.'s can wear from hard primers,time,and improper dissasembly and reassembly ...my firing pin measures at the questionable measurement/length ..... 6).The new 26# wolf spring was longer then the original by about app.1" and took a little muscle to compress....and in the next 48 or so hours we'll know if I'm a). right,b).wrong..... Thanks again for all your help,Bigbird34

November 19, 2007, 04:57 PM	#41
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	98 Sirs: This isn't over yet! Harry B.

November 29, 2007, 06:43 PM	#42
bigbird34 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2007 Location: N.W.Vermont Posts: 291	It's not over until............ Well Harry,I love a challenge,and the Mauser is turning into that, "a challenge"....the 26 pond spring was installed and we went to the range and fired the mauser .....I don't like the 26 pound spring ....I fired a 1" group at 100 yards ,but I just don't like that heavy spring ......the rounds that would not fire "fired" ,and the remaining rounds that "I" loaded fired also ...we had one round that would not go off ,no matter what ! So, Based on the information provided by another poster I measured the firing pin protrusion ~.053",still kinda short.....so I took the bolt apart again,and had a machine shop measure the OAL length of the firing pin 7.322"...then on auction arms I found Mauser firing pins for sale and this nice gentlemen had me measure from the shoulder of "MY" firing pin to the end of the firing pin .....his is longer and mine is about .020" of an inch short (Don't tell my wife)....well a new firing pin is on it's way (from Alaska) I'll probably see it in Feb ,so I can go shoot in the snow (NOT) .... I also started looking at the ole R-P brass I have been using,and once primed the primer is abot.008" of an inch recessed into the primer pocket,again probably more than should be .....so when the new firing pin arrives,and installed ,back to the range with 20 reloads ,and possibly(new factory loads ,OR new factory brass that I reload) (this is up to my son) it's his gun....but there is just not enough time in the day here in the cold north east to do all I need to do ,before we're up to our armpits in snow ,so getting ready for this winter is high on the list now,but I'll keep you all posted on my Mauser adventures .....Happy Holidays,Bigbird34

November 29, 2007, 09:06 PM	#43
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	98 Sir: Happy new year and have a merry christmas. I so hope you get your rifle straightened out - I'm sure you will! It sounds like it shoots well - better than most. When I seat my primers I don't worry about measuring how deep they go - primers ought to be seated until they "stop" in the pocket - many of us want to "pre-stress" the mixture slightly. In all my primer seating I've never found one seated that way, fail, or be above the face of the cartridge! And, most important - I want during full length resizing to feel the bolt close on the case! This assures you're at the datun line at the shoulder and against the bolt-face - loads tend to be more accurate that way because you're aligning everything on center. (hopefully). Be sure to keep all of us posted on progress - we'll figure it out. Harry B. P.S. Really, it doesn't matter if the pin strike is slightly "off-center" - matter of fact that lets the fin go against the anvil.