Fire forming brass

TonyAR308 · February 16, 2009, 06:08 PM

will simply firing a empty shell with primer form brass or do you need the pressure of a complete round to accomplish this? Will primer only do anything to form the brass?

Antihero47 · February 16, 2009, 06:43 PM

The casing needs to have something to hold in the pressure. Once the pressure reaches a certain point it pushes against the bullet, launching it out the barrel. This pressure build up from the ignition is actually what forms the case as it expands.

You would need a projectile. But, if you used a projectile and the primer only you could potentially only push the bullet down the barrel and not exit. This will cause you to have a whole new problem altogether.

I recommend just using starting loads.

Answer = No.

F. Guffey · February 16, 2009, 07:22 PM

fire forming, I form brass from 30/06 to 8/57, 7/57, 7.65X53, 308 Winchester, 257 Roberts etc., without firing the brass in the chamber, I form brass for a 30 Gibbs from 280 Remington and 30/06, the 30 Gibbs has a neck length of .217, this means I have to fire form the brass to the chamber, fire forming moves the shoulder forward and blows the case out, this causes the case to form to the chamber.

I also form 8/06, 338/06 with dies before firing, I prefer unfired military brass with out head stamps, I get better results from 280 Remington cases because necking up a 30/06 case to 338/06 and 35 Whelen causes the cases to compress and or squat, the 280 compresses is longer than the 30/06 by .044 thousands, necking up can shorten the case .025 thousands +, this results in a case that requires trimming instead of a case that is too short (as much as .035 thousands.

I do not use Cheerios, Special K, meal, toilet paper or wax, I do not use reduced loads. When forming, I use heavy bullets and loads that could be near maximum after forming, meaning I would not start with that bullet and that amount of powder after the cases are formed.

F. Guffey

**Unclenick** · February 16, 2009, 08:56 PM

Some of the old timers fireformed by putting a partial charge of black powder in a case and topping it off with Cream of Wheat or tapioca rather than a bullet. It's not clear to me what the advantage is over just firing a bullet? Perhaps a little more control when making a big change?

hodaka · February 16, 2009, 09:00 PM

I try to use the cheapest bullets and powder that I have on hand for fire forming. I've gotten by for the longest time with Remington bulk bullets and a jug of WC860 that cost about $40/jug some years ago.

TonyAR308 · February 16, 2009, 09:37 PM

Thanks for the responses. I didn't think just a primer would be enough for a complete forming it just hit me that I might get enough of a movement from the brass that it would make some difference to the first reloads and would allow me to fine tune my trigger pull without disassembling my rifles at the range. I would never use just a primer and bullet nor would I shoot anything but a bullet through my barrels. Thanks to everyone who responded.

wncchester · February 17, 2009, 07:47 PM

"Will primer only do anything to form the brass?"

Yeah. But not the way you want it. You don't say what cartridge you are interested in but a primer can drive an empty bottle neck case forward hard enough for the chamber to act as a size die and set the shoulder back a thou or two.

amamnn · February 17, 2009, 09:41 PM

Nick, the purported advantage was that there was less barrel wear (throat erosion) when using this method. I personally know one old timer--omg he's a year younger than me--who can credibly debate that point--as he spent several times the cost of a new Shilen select match barrel on hospital fees................I drove him home...............

TonyAR308 · February 17, 2009, 10:00 PM

wnnchester; I was thinking about using this method for 25-06 and 308. Stevens and Tikka, respectively, if that matters.

amamnn; Can you expand on how your friend was injured.

TonyAR308 · February 17, 2009, 10:08 PM

The reason I asked about this was I have read a person should resize new brass or brass not shot from their weapon. I can understand brass that has shot form a different weapoon or that has been slightly dented or dinged but resizing new brass just baffles me. I don't doubt the reasoning just that resized new brass still must be fire formed and if you can get anything good from the primer method as far as brass forming it seems like a decent idea even if you still resize prior. It could help with trigger control just by getting a little bang when practicing a steady trigger pull. Maybe just a waste of time but I don't care to try it if it is dangerous in any way.

daywalker627 · February 17, 2009, 11:26 PM

I am glad you started this thread. I was actully going to ask if you still need to fire form even brand new brass for the rifle. I had bought new brass for my 30-30 and ran them through the full length die. I made sure the thength was correct and I primed them all. I was wondering if they needed to be fire formed before starting loading them. The other reason I ask, when someone purchases factory ammo for hunting, they are in theory brand new loaded brass that are not fire formed to my rifle when using for hunting. However, that could also be the reason a person reloads to begin with.

F. Guffey · February 17, 2009, 11:49 PM

Day Walker, I do not like to take credit for something I do/did not do, new and once fired brass is formed, after the first firing it becomes once fired, if I fire a case to move the shoulder forward .202 thousands remove some of the taper by increasing the body diameter by .019 thousands I have fire formed a 30 Gibbs, if I had cases that did not require moving the shoulder forward by firing, I could form the case before firing.

Again, I form 8/06, 8X57, 7X57 with dies, after I fire these case, they become once fired.

F. Guffey

daywalker627 · February 18, 2009, 12:12 AM

Thanks F. Guffey, still new and still learning. All info helps.

54321 · February 23, 2009, 08:48 AM

So do I fire form 25-20 to 218 bee or full length sizer die? Its a wheel gun.

FrankenMauser · February 23, 2009, 02:02 PM

If you buy new brass stamped for the cartridge you are loading, it is fully formed.
(Unless specifically stated by the manufacturer that -X- step was not completed, but this typically only applies to special order brass used by wildcatters.)

Factory ammo is also fully formed.

Some of you may be getting the concepts of fully-formed-brass and brass-formed-to-your-chamber confused.

Fully-formed brass is brass that falls within the SAAMI minimum and maximum specifications for cartridge dimensions of that particular cartridge; and should be safe in any weapon chambered for that cartridge.

Brass formed to your chamber, is exactly that. Every firearm's chamber is different. When you pull the trigger and fire that factory ammo (or first hand-load), it turns into once-fired brass. The once-fired brass is now formed to the chamber of the weapon it was fired in. It may or may not be within SAAMI specifications. There are many roads to take with once-fired brass; all dependent upon where you want to end up.

True fire-forming is only needed when a fully-formed case cannot be made by running once-fired or new brass through a full-length sizing die. Fire forming is typically needed when cartridges require the body to be blown out, the shoulder to be pushed forward, or a change in shoulder angle. (And any combination of those.)

Quote:

So do I fire form 25-20 to 218 bee or full length sizer die? Its a wheel gun.

.25-20 to .218 Bee is fully formed when full-length sized in a .218 Bee sizing die.

54321 · February 23, 2009, 03:36 PM

Thanks alot didnt think I was ever going to get a straight answer on that one.

TonyAR308 · February 23, 2009, 08:48 PM

I have read that fire formed brass will be more accurate than new brass. I was trying to figure out a way to get the brass formed to my chamber without firing fully reloaded ammo. Everything is scarce and I am having a fit trying to find all the components. I just wanted to save some time and money and get the best accuracy or best reload I could. I realize the steps to find the best combination, powder and bullets. I just wanted to eliminate the brass equation if I could. Maybe there is so little difference from fire formed brass and new brass that I shouldn't bother. I am not looking to win matches just brag about my groups.

FrankenMauser · February 23, 2009, 11:01 PM

Just buy cheaper components, if that's all you want to do.

Also be aware of what wild-catters sometimes refer to as "fire-forming syndrome". (Usually only occuring with cartridges that truelly need to be fire-formed, rather than just forming to a unique chamber.) Sometimes your fire-forming loads end up being the most accurate load the rifle will ever spit out. It is theorised that the extra expansion allowed by the brass stretching to fill the chamber actually smooths out pressure spikes, and causes better harmonics in the barrel.

El Paso Joe · February 24, 2009, 12:10 AM

What I usually do is run the case I am using to form through the die for the new caliber. There may be some dents in the new case. Then I will shoot a starting load with a light bullet to finish forming the case.

I form 32-40's from 32 Special brass (or 30WCF if I can't get the 32 Special). First I run the 30WCF through the 32-40 die. Carefully. Being sure to lube the case mouth. Then load a 170gr cast bullet over a light (starting) load. What I have at that point is good, fire formed 32-40 brass.

TEDDY · February 24, 2009, 08:07 PM

learn to load before trying the advanced steps.fireforming is not needed with new brass if the cartridge is the right one for your gun.you are trying to jump a few chapters in the book with out learning the steps in between.to much bull has many of you confused.one step at a time or some one is going to end up in the morg.

FrankenMauser · February 25, 2009, 01:55 AM

Quote:

learn to load before trying the advanced steps.fireforming is not needed with new brass if the cartridge is the right one for your gun.you are trying to jump a few chapters in the book with out learning the steps in between.to much bull has many of you confused.one step at a time or some one is going to end up in the morg

Teddy does have a good point. If you really want some better information, and a taste of wildcatting....

Pick up a copy of P.O. Ackley's "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders" Vol. 1.
There is an abundance of good information on basic reloading techniques, and some advanced techniques. If you need to know more, you'll be able to search out the information a little easier after reading the book.

TonyAR308 · February 25, 2009, 08:51 PM

Don't worry guys. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel. I am waiting on components, have someone with years experience to go to (he's just not as available as this forum) , and I am smart enough to read manuals and ask questions prior to trying anything. I am asking questions here so I save several hours finding opinions one at a time elsewhere on the internet. Thanks to all who responded, it is appreciated.

Japle · February 26, 2009, 08:05 PM

I guess I'm one of the "old timers".
I form .358 Norma Mag brass from .300 Win Mag with 7 gr of Unique, enough Cream of Wheat to nearly fill the case and a wad of TP to hold it in.

Cheap, quick and easy.

February 16, 2009, 06:08 PM	#1
TonyAR308 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 102	Fire forming brass will simply firing a empty shell with primer form brass or do you need the pressure of a complete round to accomplish this? Will primer only do anything to form the brass?

February 16, 2009, 08:56 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Some of the old timers fireformed by putting a partial charge of black powder in a case and topping it off with Cream of Wheat or tapioca rather than a bullet. It's not clear to me what the advantage is over just firing a bullet? Perhaps a little more control when making a big change? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 17, 2009, 09:41 PM	#8
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	Nick, the purported advantage was that there was less barrel wear (throat erosion) when using this method. I personally know one old timer--omg he's a year younger than me--who can credibly debate that point--as he spent several times the cost of a new Shilen select match barrel on hospital fees................I drove him home............... __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

February 17, 2009, 10:00 PM	#9
TonyAR308 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 102	wncchester : amamnn wnnchester; I was thinking about using this method for 25-06 and 308. Stevens and Tikka, respectively, if that matters. amamnn; Can you expand on how your friend was injured.

February 17, 2009, 10:08 PM	#10
TonyAR308 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 102	Let me add one more thing. The reason I asked about this was I have read a person should resize new brass or brass not shot from their weapon. I can understand brass that has shot form a different weapoon or that has been slightly dented or dinged but resizing new brass just baffles me. I don't doubt the reasoning just that resized new brass still must be fire formed and if you can get anything good from the primer method as far as brass forming it seems like a decent idea even if you still resize prior. It could help with trigger control just by getting a little bang when practicing a steady trigger pull. Maybe just a waste of time but I don't care to try it if it is dangerous in any way.

February 16, 2009, 06:43 PM	#2
Antihero47 Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 111	The casing needs to have something to hold in the pressure. Once the pressure reaches a certain point it pushes against the bullet, launching it out the barrel. This pressure build up from the ignition is actually what forms the case as it expands. You would need a projectile. But, if you used a projectile and the primer only you could potentially only push the bullet down the barrel and not exit. This will cause you to have a whole new problem altogether. I recommend just using starting loads. Answer = No.

February 16, 2009, 07:22 PM	#3
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	fire forming, I form brass from 30/06 to 8/57, 7/57, 7.65X53, 308 Winchester, 257 Roberts etc., without firing the brass in the chamber, I form brass for a 30 Gibbs from 280 Remington and 30/06, the 30 Gibbs has a neck length of .217, this means I have to fire form the brass to the chamber, fire forming moves the shoulder forward and blows the case out, this causes the case to form to the chamber. I also form 8/06, 338/06 with dies before firing, I prefer unfired military brass with out head stamps, I get better results from 280 Remington cases because necking up a 30/06 case to 338/06 and 35 Whelen causes the cases to compress and or squat, the 280 compresses is longer than the 30/06 by .044 thousands, necking up can shorten the case .025 thousands +, this results in a case that requires trimming instead of a case that is too short (as much as .035 thousands. I do not use Cheerios, Special K, meal, toilet paper or wax, I do not use reduced loads. When forming, I use heavy bullets and loads that could be near maximum after forming, meaning I would not start with that bullet and that amount of powder after the cases are formed. F. Guffey

February 16, 2009, 09:00 PM	#5
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	I try to use the cheapest bullets and powder that I have on hand for fire forming. I've gotten by for the longest time with Remington bulk bullets and a jug of WC860 that cost about $40/jug some years ago.

February 16, 2009, 09:37 PM	#6
TonyAR308 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 102	Thanks for the responses. I didn't think just a primer would be enough for a complete forming it just hit me that I might get enough of a movement from the brass that it would make some difference to the first reloads and would allow me to fine tune my trigger pull without disassembling my rifles at the range. I would never use just a primer and bullet nor would I shoot anything but a bullet through my barrels. Thanks to everyone who responded.

February 17, 2009, 07:47 PM	#7
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"Will primer only do anything to form the brass?" Yeah. But not the way you want it. You don't say what cartridge you are interested in but a primer can drive an empty bottle neck case forward hard enough for the chamber to act as a size die and set the shoulder back a thou or two.

February 17, 2009, 11:26 PM	#11
daywalker627 Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Location: Dublin VA Posts: 105	I am glad you started this thread. I was actully going to ask if you still need to fire form even brand new brass for the rifle. I had bought new brass for my 30-30 and ran them through the full length die. I made sure the thength was correct and I primed them all. I was wondering if they needed to be fire formed before starting loading them. The other reason I ask, when someone purchases factory ammo for hunting, they are in theory brand new loaded brass that are not fire formed to my rifle when using for hunting. However, that could also be the reason a person reloads to begin with.

February 17, 2009, 11:49 PM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Day Walker, I do not like to take credit for something I do/did not do, new and once fired brass is formed, after the first firing it becomes once fired, if I fire a case to move the shoulder forward .202 thousands remove some of the taper by increasing the body diameter by .019 thousands I have fire formed a 30 Gibbs, if I had cases that did not require moving the shoulder forward by firing, I could form the case before firing. Again, I form 8/06, 8X57, 7X57 with dies, after I fire these case, they become once fired. F. Guffey

February 18, 2009, 12:12 AM	#13
daywalker627 Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Location: Dublin VA Posts: 105	Thanks F. Guffey, still new and still learning. All info helps.

February 23, 2009, 08:48 AM	#14
54321 Junior Member Join Date: February 23, 2009 Posts: 3	So do I fire form 25-20 to 218 bee or full length sizer die? Its a wheel gun.

February 23, 2009, 03:36 PM	#16
54321 Junior Member Join Date: February 23, 2009 Posts: 3	Thanks alot didnt think I was ever going to get a straight answer on that one.

February 23, 2009, 08:48 PM	#17
TonyAR308 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 102	Since I started this I have read that fire formed brass will be more accurate than new brass. I was trying to figure out a way to get the brass formed to my chamber without firing fully reloaded ammo. Everything is scarce and I am having a fit trying to find all the components. I just wanted to save some time and money and get the best accuracy or best reload I could. I realize the steps to find the best combination, powder and bullets. I just wanted to eliminate the brass equation if I could. Maybe there is so little difference from fire formed brass and new brass that I shouldn't bother. I am not looking to win matches just brag about my groups.

February 23, 2009, 11:01 PM	#18
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Just buy cheaper components, if that's all you want to do. Also be aware of what wild-catters sometimes refer to as "fire-forming syndrome". (Usually only occuring with cartridges that truelly need to be fire-formed, rather than just forming to a unique chamber.) Sometimes your fire-forming loads end up being the most accurate load the rifle will ever spit out. It is theorised that the extra expansion allowed by the brass stretching to fill the chamber actually smooths out pressure spikes, and causes better harmonics in the barrel.

February 24, 2009, 12:10 AM	#19
El Paso Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2006 Location: Spokane Valley Posts: 340	What I usually do is run the case I am using to form through the die for the new caliber. There may be some dents in the new case. Then I will shoot a starting load with a light bullet to finish forming the case. I form 32-40's from 32 Special brass (or 30WCF if I can't get the 32 Special). First I run the 30WCF through the 32-40 die. Carefully. Being sure to lube the case mouth. Then load a 170gr cast bullet over a light (starting) load. What I have at that point is good, fire formed 32-40 brass.

February 24, 2009, 08:07 PM	#20
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	fireforming learn to load before trying the advanced steps.fireforming is not needed with new brass if the cartridge is the right one for your gun.you are trying to jump a few chapters in the book with out learning the steps in between.to much bull has many of you confused.one step at a time or some one is going to end up in the morg.

February 25, 2009, 08:51 PM	#22
TonyAR308 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 102	Don't worry guys. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel. I am waiting on components, have someone with years experience to go to (he's just not as available as this forum) , and I am smart enough to read manuals and ask questions prior to trying anything. I am asking questions here so I save several hours finding opinions one at a time elsewhere on the internet. Thanks to all who responded, it is appreciated.

February 26, 2009, 08:05 PM	#23
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	I guess I'm one of the "old timers". I form .358 Norma Mag brass from .300 Win Mag with 7 gr of Unique, enough Cream of Wheat to nearly fill the case and a wad of TP to hold it in. Cheap, quick and easy.