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July 12, 2008, 08:28 PM | #1 |
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First time reloading a semi-auto round (9mm) - help please!
So according to Lyman's 3rd Ed. Pistol and Revolver Handbook, a 9mm 125 gr. JHP should have an OAL of 1.075.
I'm using Golden Saber 124 gr. JHP with Unique - starting on the low end of the load, i.e. 4.5 to 4.6 (per Lyman recommendations). The problem that I think I have (but it may be no problem at all - thus why I'm writing) is that Unique pretty much fills up that cartridge - maybe 2/3rds full. So when I go and seat the bullet, I feel I'm really cramming down on the powder - compacting it. My OAL is a bit over the recommended length - 1.078 to 1.083. I feel like if I go lower, I'm REALLY compressing the powder. Indeed, I'm thinking I need to move up to 1.090 or so. Am I totally worried about nothing? I read in my Lyman's manual on page 55 a pretty good discussion of compressing powder, and while it appears from that reading that while over compressed powder can cause jamming and poor accuracy, no mention was made of any real danger of over-compressing, at least for handguns. Again, per Lyman's, I've taken careful OAL measurements, and will take them again in 24 hours to see if the bullet has been pushed up by the "internal upward force of the compressed powder" (to quote Lyman). I'm using a Dillon Square Deal. for what it's worth. Any insight would be much appreciated! Thanks, Brian |
July 12, 2008, 09:29 PM | #2 |
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The 1.075 in your Lyman book might be a minimum. My Speer 13 says an OAL of 1.12. 1.12 is what I load at for my Glock. You might want to make a round a little long and drop it in the barrel of the gun you are going to shoot them in. Keep seating it a little at a time until it is seated deep enough to drop in the barrel and fall back out when you tip the barrel up. Then check it with a caliper. I had the seat some down to 1.035 to get them to chamber in my CZ but I am using Titegroup which is a faster powder and doesn't take as much. I also reduced the load and worked it up. Hope this helps.
Rusty
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July 12, 2008, 09:54 PM | #3 |
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Hey Rusty - thanks for the advice. Not sure if I completely understand you though. When you say "drop it in the barrel", you mean load it in a magazine and see if it chambers? I've tried that and they chamber fine. Sorry if I'm a bit confused - again, new to reloading in a semi-auto handgun caliber.
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July 12, 2008, 10:27 PM | #4 |
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No he means to remove the barrel from the gun and see if the round will head space correctly. I wouldn't worry about the length sounds like they are fine, I just make sure they fit in the mag. As long as you use good data from a reliable source you should be good.
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July 13, 2008, 01:02 AM | #5 |
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Woah! One of us has a serious issue. I have the Lyman 3rd edition and mine says that overall cartridge length should not exceed 1.169, pg 140. That's from bullet tip to cartridge base. I routinely load to about 1.161 and have zero problems with it.
If your squeezing the cartridge length down below 1.1 I would say your having some serious powder compression, especially for a load that heavy. That can be a blow up in your face problem due to the fact that overseating causes terminal increases in pressure. Double check your load guide for that number. I've used mine in common loads and shot them without problem, though I used Titegroup with a minimum charge. Other than that I use the feed rule. On any new work up, prepare a dummy round, no primer no powder. Then feed it through your pistol. If it ramps well, then you're probably safe. Though as I said earlier, double check your numbers as an overseat can dangerously increase the pressure. thanks zac. |
July 13, 2008, 05:27 AM | #6 |
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Hey zac - that cartridge drawing OAL dimension you refer to on pg 140 is a "maximum allowable loaded cartridge dimension". See the explanation on pg. 122. As Lyman states, "it is unlikely that a reloader will ever encounter a cartridge with these dimensions unless a problem is present."
The dimension I am using as a guide can be found on pg. 142, for my specific bullet weight (i.e. 125 gr jacketed HP) - 1.075 OAL. So from what I understand, the drawing dimension really is just a maximum reference point. The closest any bullet should come to that maximum, in 9mm, is the 130gr FJM, listed as 1.160. |
July 13, 2008, 10:26 AM | #7 |
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wrong wrong wrong
First, Lyman shows an OAL for a specific bullet, to be tested in their gun/test barrel.
I have some NATO 9x19 that mikes at 1.158" and another 'brand' goes 1.160". And CorBon 124g JHP at 1.108" (av) and Speer 124g Gold Dots at 1.123". And I run bullets weighing from 115g to 151g, from 1.100" out to 1.155". Make yours long enough to provide adequate case support for the bullet; make them to a reliable-functioning length based on your gun. Don't make hundreds; make twenty or so for testing first. Your charge weight of Unique is safe. (Try Alliant Power Pistol, too).
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July 13, 2008, 10:33 AM | #8 |
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As I recall, the Golden Saber bullets have a groove diameter bearing band, then a step down to a bore riding section, then curving off into the ogive. I have not loaded any, but from what I have read and seen in factory loads; the taper crimp should be right over the front edge of the bearing band. Take what OAL that gives you. Kind of like a revolver bullet, the construction determines seating, not an arbitrary number derived with another bullet.
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July 13, 2008, 10:50 AM | #9 |
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kinda mostly ditto
I don't use or have any component Golden Sabers for the .355" bores, but I have some for others.
Well described. Good advice letting bullet shape help determine at least OAL parameters, but there is a bit of fudge available. Only a bit.....
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July 13, 2008, 11:01 AM | #10 |
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THanks Jim and Weshoot and EPR. I am now getting a better understanding of the OAL data in manuals. I recall reading somewhere about crimping right over the front edge of the bearing band. My bullets are seated a bit deeper than that, so I'm going to work up some more after adjusting the seating die. I'll take whatever OAL that give me, but could I get a bit more help in understanding exactly how to figure out if the cartridge "head spaces correctly". They are loading in the magazine fine, and seem to chamber ok as well, but I'm sure I'm missing something.
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July 13, 2008, 11:10 AM | #11 |
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The best advise that I was given by the person that helped me set up my working press was to determine how much powder was going into the case, then look at how far the bullet needed to seat in order to reach your OAL. If you see significant powder compresion than there is a problem. Another big factor to watch is your roll crimp on the final stage. When I did mine initially, it was WAY too aggressive. Just a FYI, thanks for pointed out my duh! moment by the way... Need to spend less time on the board when I'm half asleep, thanks zac.
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July 13, 2008, 12:10 PM | #12 |
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Like epr said, I remove the barrel from the gun and use it for a case gage. I found out the hard way when I was new to reloading. I made 100 rounds for a new CZ75 BD Police 9mm pistol and went to the range. None of them would chamber because they were all too long. I set the OAL to what the Speer manual said was their test. I went home and took the barrel out of the gun. Took one round and kept seating it a little at a time until it would chamber. Then I seated the rest to match. I had to go from 1.120 to 1.035. I was at the minimum charge so I shot those and worked up until I found the charge I liked.
Rusty
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July 13, 2008, 12:28 PM | #13 |
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Factory Remington 124 Golden Sabers have an overall length of 1.120-1.125"
as the hollowpoint tips vary a little. Using Unique powder and various cases, mostly Winchester, 4.9 grains gives slightly less than 1000fps while 5.0 grains is a little over 1000fps. 5.0 grains is actually around 1050fps in my pistol. My load now is 5.1 grains of Unique, CCI 500 primer, Win cases, 1.120-1.125" oal. Very lightly taper crimp the GS to take the bell out of the mouth and for the case mouth to barely touch the smaller diameter of the bullet. I'd seat the GS's to the factory length as they feed and cycle well in 2 pistols and Kel-Tec carbine. Your starting load of 4.5 grains of Unique, I'm guessing due to my tests, will not break 900fps but your short oal length may raise that. Seated to factory length 4.6 grains gets 910-925fps with Unique and CCI500 primers in Win brass. I don't think 5.1 is quite maximum but watch very carefully above that. That's what I like about Unique with this load is that it fills the case. |
July 13, 2008, 12:58 PM | #14 |
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According to QuickLOAD, you're getting about 8% powder compression with a 124gr Golden Saber loaded over 4.6gr of Unique to a COL of 1.080". I don't generally like more than 2% compression, but to each his own. Increasing the COL to 1.160" uncompresses the charge completely, leaving 15% of air space beneath the bullet.
After reading some glowing testimonials about the 124gr Golden Saber bullets, I recently purchased some to test. The bullet averages about .575" in length, and the "driving band" measures about .170" up from the base. I want most (but not all) of the driving band inside the case, so I seat the bullet about .165" inside the case. Since my cases are .750" long, the final COL I'm looking for is about 1.160". These feed well in my Beretta 8000F. It's hard to believe, but increasing the COL on your load by only eight one-hundredths of an inch drops the pressure from over 30,000 psi to just over 21,000 psi. I really like the 9mm Luger, but seating bullets just a little too deeply can send the pressure skyrocketing. Make sure your expander is small enough so that the case can give significant grip to the bullet, and don't rely on the crimp to bail you out. You really don't want the bullet seating deeper on the rough trip from the magazine, up the feed ramp, and into the chamber. |
July 13, 2008, 04:51 PM | #15 |
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Thanks again for all the great help. I went to the range today with my test group of 20 bullets - the ones with 1.080 COL. As I expected, they all fed beautifully and seemed to be plenty accurate - no FTE or mis-feeds.
Nevertheless, I do believe that I"m over-compressing the powder. I'm going to adjust my crimp so that the case mouth barely touches the smaller diameter of the bullet, right above the bearing band. I'll be careful not to over-crimp. I'm thinking this will bring up the OAL to factory specs, or close to it. Still not entirely sure how to check headspace using a reloaded round (obviously, with out powder or primer) - but I think what's being suggested is to load the dud round into a magazine and see if it will chamber. Why remove the barrel? It's this last point that has me very confused (god, I feel like an IDIOT, actually). Thanks! BK |
July 13, 2008, 07:26 PM | #16 |
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I think I finally got it! I backed off the seating die till the lip of the case was just over the bearing band, and I backed off my crimping die so that the case mouth is just touching the smaller diameter of the bullet. This gives me an OAL of 1.145 - not quite factory specs, but I also don't want to risk compression. And they drop right into the chamber and fall nicely out when I tip the barrel. I believe I'm all set.
Thanks again for all the help! |
July 14, 2008, 11:36 AM | #17 |
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Check the case lengths. Max is .754". Trim-to is .751". If they're too long or too short, you'll have OAL issues. It's worse if the cases aren't all the same length. The OAL will be all over. Mind you, handgun cases don't stretch much.
Max OAL(that'd be with heavy bullets) is 1.169". The chamber does make the best chambering guage though.
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July 14, 2008, 01:25 PM | #18 |
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Yea, good point re: case lengths. Luckily for me, these are fresh spankin new Winchester cases. I'm at work now, but as I recall they all read about
.749 as I recall. I think I'm good to go there. |
July 14, 2008, 03:17 PM | #19 |
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Not saying you will but you may have a little problem seating them .020 thou. longer than factory. Maybe not? I started loading them at 1.140 and had a couple rounds out of the 1st 100 or so shot that failed to chamber in a G-19 pistol. The tip of the hollowpoint bullet caught on the feed ramp. Since seating to factory length I've had no jams in several hundred rounds. Keep your Unique to 5.0 or slightly less with your 124 GS's and the slight powder compression won't hurt a thing and may actually help get better burning of the powder.
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July 14, 2008, 06:35 PM | #20 |
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Thanks RG! I've got 100 rounds at 1.145 that I made up last night - plan on shooting them in the next day or so. We'll see how they feed in my Kimber Pro Carry II in 9mm, as well as my Glock 34. If I have any chambering issues, I'll bring down the OAL a bit next time and see how that works. I guess ya gotta experiment a bit at first till you get it just right, then stick to that recipe!
:-) Brian |
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