Scenario

David Scott · March 27, 2002, 10:23 AM

It's 9AM. You got up early on your day off to go to an unmoderated range in the National Forest. There's no ranger presence closer than the Ranger Station 12 miles away., and you're 25 miles from the nearest small town. You've been shooting for about 15 minutes when you FEEL the boom-boom of a 6,000 watt car stereo. Pulling into the parking lot is a lowered Cadillac STS with all the chrome replaced by gold trim.

Three guys get out. They are all wearing jeans, sleeveless T-shirts and baseball caps turned backward. Each one has a blue bandanna tied around his left knee. THey open the trunk and carry a pump shotgun, an AR-15 and an SKS to the line, plus a gym bag from which they unload a .38 snubbie, a Glock, a Ruger Security Six and a SIG P225. All the time they are trash-talking about how bad they are and about cappin' so-and-so.

They have obvious trouble figuring out how to operate some of the weapons. When they do get them working, they pay no attention to range safety rules, waving the weapon's muzzles around and playing grab-ass. They shoot the handguns turned on their sides, and the long guns from the hip. They can't hit jack.

One of them notices that you're punching consistent inch and a half holes in the target's 10-ring with your favorite CCW gun. He comes over and says, "Man, how do you do that? Show us how to shoot like that!"

Your answer?

Betty · March 27, 2002, 10:40 AM

These guys are already not-nice people, and it's not because they drive a lo-rider and have their hats on backwards. They're talking about capping people off, and they wear very well known gang colors, not to mention being unknowledgeable with their own firarms, which makes them a safety hazard to everyone including themselves.

In my case, the second I'm uncomfortable is the second I try to leave. If there's a bunch of thugs around, I start packing, so it shouldn't even get to the point where they notice my tight groups and ask about them. I'm outnumbered and outgunned, and even though I may be the better shooter, it doesn't matter.

And I always, always have another concealed loaded gun on my person, no matter what I'm shooting. And I never shoot alone, there's always someone with me (safety reasons).

But's let's say they do come over and ask. That's a tough one. If I say no, I might upset them and then they get aggressive. But I don't want to help them either, seeing how they're already bragging about popping off people. I'd probably make the encounter as brief as possible while I'm packing my range gear, all the while keeping my eye on all 3 guys. "Sure, the front sight divides the rear sight in half (little common sense stuff, without really telling him much)...Gotta go now guys, nice to meet you, but I've got an appointment to go to" that sort of thing. And if they won't let me go, well, that's another story....

C.R.Sam · March 27, 2002, 10:47 AM

Runt right.

Sam

yorec · March 27, 2002, 01:46 PM

And Runt left.

Well me too, why answer - I left when they started into thier badman act. There are plenty of other good ranges in my neck of the woods and I won't share them or my knowledge with the likes of those...

Jay Baker · March 27, 2002, 01:56 PM

I'm outta there, before they even get really started. I know too much about gangstas, not to know that sometimes, even the least "slight" or "funny look," or "wrong word," can set them off.

One against three? Huh uh, not this child.

(By the way, I don't go to isolated outdoor ranges alone, either.)

J.B.

Christopher II · March 27, 2002, 02:35 PM

Me, shoot 1-1/2" groups? Wow, thanks!

Same as most people, I don't go to public ranges alone, I keep a loaded gun on me when shooting, and I don't hang around with wannabe ghetto-thug types. So's as soon as I feel the bass, I'm gone.

But to go with the scenario, if they did ask for help, I'd put on my best zen master/hippie loser act and start talking about "feeling the aura of the target" and other such crap. Project a harmless image, right? Leave on the first possible pretext, and keep my options open if everything goes wrong and it becomes a gunfight.

- Chris

LASur5r · March 27, 2002, 03:00 PM

In soCal, the county has closed up a lot of the outdoor shooting areas so the wannabees come to the local ranges. I usually take a lunch break for stress relief or to try out some new toy, but sometimes, during the days, the wannabees show up on the range.

Nowadays, I just walk away and take a break outside until they leave or I go home. I used to trust the range master, but more and more I guess they kind of let things go.

In my youth, I've been known to load up and walk up to the wannabee in question and tell them what the range rule is, that they are violating. In the old days, too, the rangemaster would order them off the line.

Years back, I was with this rangemaster when he warned the wannabees that they were doing too much rapid firing with no control. They contested his call (three of them.) He just reached out and plucked that semi-auto right out of the WB's hand. and everyone on the line knew it was now get serious time. The other two started to raise their muzzles and about ten guys on the firing line had their guns either out or in their holsters and these guys all backed away from the firing line and made it clear that we were backing th rangemaster, who then gathered up their gear and escorted the three off the range. Got a little hairy.

Rickmeister · March 27, 2002, 03:18 PM

"Cómo dice? No entiendo Inglés. Habla usted Español?"

Nah, that'll probably get me into more trouble. Better yet:

"Bitte, sprechen sie Deutche? Ich spreche Englisch nicht gut."

While they scratch their heads and try to figure out whether I am a friend or foe, I'll make a clandestine exit...hand always on my new K40. And three double-taps in mind, if it comes to that.

Bogie · March 27, 2002, 05:13 PM

When I go to non-supervised public access ranges, I ALWAYS have an AR-15 with a pair of 30 rounders within reach. That's what they make slings for.

When they pulled up, I'd be in the wind.

pdmoderator · March 27, 2002, 05:49 PM

"Sorry, the agency doesn't permit our team to disclose that information."

Realistically, same notes as the others.

- pdmoderator

riverdog · March 27, 2002, 09:01 PM

"Sight alignment, trigger control and 20 years practice."

Really, it seems unanimous. First, I don't shoot alone in the National Forest. But for the scenario, I'd be packin' the truck and leaving before they started shooting.

therookie · March 28, 2002, 02:28 AM

For starters, don't shoot alone outdoors unregulated (probably just a good idea overall)

Running like hell sounds good, but if that doesn't work, that new age mumbo-jumbo that sounds fancy might work...

That and I can't make an 1.5 inch group with a handgun to save my life....

David Scott · March 28, 2002, 10:16 AM

All good answers, esp. the notions that (A) you should never go alone to the range, and (B) when bozos arrive, it's time to pack up and go.

Personally, I'd consider dropping by the ranger station, mentioning the degree of grab-ass being performed, and note that the PD may want to run the Caddy's license plate number (which I noted) and maybe stop 'em and see if those guns are on a hot sheet.

Carry24x7 · March 28, 2002, 04:03 PM

What!? Leave the range!?! And pass up a perfect opportunity to fire somebody else's ammo through somebody else's full-autos!?!?!

No way...

I'm going to load and holster myself and go over there and teach them how to shoot. And the sooner we shoot through their ammo the sooner they'll leave. And they might leave knowing more than they came with.

foghornl · April 2, 2002, 02:06 PM

I don't go to un-attended ranges, PERIOD.

When the thumping starts, I quit and pack it in for the day.

Vist the ranger or local PD with license number and car description.

Ryder · April 2, 2002, 10:34 PM

Not much chance of meeting any gangstas up here where I live but I did experience something very similar to that from a couple of off duty cops once. I had to step back after getting hot brass ejected all over myself and my 7 year old for two magazines in a row.

I had such serious safety concerns being anywhere near them once they began trying to learn quick draws that we backed off the range altogether leaving my guns sitting on the bench. Musta been newbies or reserve wannabees cause they weren't hittin schitt either.

If they'd asked me for shooting tips? Hahaha, not even a theoretical possiblility, we didn't exist to them. Half a dozen benches to shoot from and they set up between me and the nearest bench.

Most inconsiderate range users I've ever had the displeasure to observe in my life.

March 27, 2002, 10:23 AM	#1
David Scott Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2000 Posts: 2,456	Scenario It's 9AM. You got up early on your day off to go to an unmoderated range in the National Forest. There's no ranger presence closer than the Ranger Station 12 miles away., and you're 25 miles from the nearest small town. You've been shooting for about 15 minutes when you FEEL the boom-boom of a 6,000 watt car stereo. Pulling into the parking lot is a lowered Cadillac STS with all the chrome replaced by gold trim. Three guys get out. They are all wearing jeans, sleeveless T-shirts and baseball caps turned backward. Each one has a blue bandanna tied around his left knee. THey open the trunk and carry a pump shotgun, an AR-15 and an SKS to the line, plus a gym bag from which they unload a .38 snubbie, a Glock, a Ruger Security Six and a SIG P225. All the time they are trash-talking about how bad they are and about cappin' so-and-so. They have obvious trouble figuring out how to operate some of the weapons. When they do get them working, they pay no attention to range safety rules, waving the weapon's muzzles around and playing grab-ass. They shoot the handguns turned on their sides, and the long guns from the hip. They can't hit jack. One of them notices that you're punching consistent inch and a half holes in the target's 10-ring with your favorite CCW gun. He comes over and says, "Man, how do you do that? Show us how to shoot like that!" Your answer? __________________ "As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms." -- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss

March 27, 2002, 01:46 PM	#4
yorec Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,328	And Runt left. Well me too, why answer - I left when they started into thier badman act. There are plenty of other good ranges in my neck of the woods and I won't share them or my knowledge with the likes of those... __________________ What part of "... shall not be infringed..." don't you understand?

March 27, 2002, 02:35 PM	#6
Christopher II Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Germantown, MD Posts: 2,349	Me, shoot 1-1/2" groups? Wow, thanks! Same as most people, I don't go to public ranges alone, I keep a loaded gun on me when shooting, and I don't hang around with wannabe ghetto-thug types. So's as soon as I feel the bass, I'm gone. But to go with the scenario, if they did ask for help, I'd put on my best zen master/hippie loser act and start talking about "feeling the aura of the target" and other such crap. Project a harmless image, right? Leave on the first possible pretext, and keep my options open if everything goes wrong and it becomes a gunfight. - Chris __________________ "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." – Robert Heinlein "Contrary to popular belief, your vote does not matter, and you cannot make a difference." - Bob Murphy, "Picking Neither of Two Evils" My PGP Public Key

March 27, 2002, 03:00 PM	#7
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Been there In soCal, the county has closed up a lot of the outdoor shooting areas so the wannabees come to the local ranges. I usually take a lunch break for stress relief or to try out some new toy, but sometimes, during the days, the wannabees show up on the range. Nowadays, I just walk away and take a break outside until they leave or I go home. I used to trust the range master, but more and more I guess they kind of let things go. In my youth, I've been known to load up and walk up to the wannabee in question and tell them what the range rule is, that they are violating. In the old days, too, the rangemaster would order them off the line. Years back, I was with this rangemaster when he warned the wannabees that they were doing too much rapid firing with no control. They contested his call (three of them.) He just reached out and plucked that semi-auto right out of the WB's hand. and everyone on the line knew it was now get serious time. The other two started to raise their muzzles and about ten guys on the firing line had their guns either out or in their holsters and these guys all backed away from the firing line and made it clear that we were backing th rangemaster, who then gathered up their gear and escorted the three off the range. Got a little hairy.

March 27, 2002, 05:13 PM	#9
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	When I go to non-supervised public access ranges, I ALWAYS have an AR-15 with a pair of 30 rounders within reach. That's what they make slings for. When they pulled up, I'd be in the wind. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

March 27, 2002, 10:40 AM	#2
Betty Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2000 Location: southern U.S. Posts: 1,807	These guys are already not-nice people, and it's not because they drive a lo-rider and have their hats on backwards. They're talking about capping people off, and they wear very well known gang colors, not to mention being unknowledgeable with their own firarms, which makes them a safety hazard to everyone including themselves. In my case, the second I'm uncomfortable is the second I try to leave. If there's a bunch of thugs around, I start packing, so it shouldn't even get to the point where they notice my tight groups and ask about them. I'm outnumbered and outgunned, and even though I may be the better shooter, it doesn't matter. And I always, always have another concealed loaded gun on my person, no matter what I'm shooting. And I never shoot alone, there's always someone with me (safety reasons). But's let's say they do come over and ask. That's a tough one. If I say no, I might upset them and then they get aggressive. But I don't want to help them either, seeing how they're already bragging about popping off people. I'd probably make the encounter as brief as possible while I'm packing my range gear, all the while keeping my eye on all 3 guys. "Sure, the front sight divides the rear sight in half (little common sense stuff, without really telling him much)...Gotta go now guys, nice to meet you, but I've got an appointment to go to" that sort of thing. And if they won't let me go, well, that's another story....

March 27, 2002, 10:47 AM	#3
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Runt right. Sam

March 27, 2002, 01:56 PM	#5
Jay Baker Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2000 Location: S.W. Idaho Posts: 1,294	I'm outta there, before they even get really started. I know too much about gangstas, not to know that sometimes, even the least "slight" or "funny look," or "wrong word," can set them off. One against three? Huh uh, not this child. (By the way, I don't go to isolated outdoor ranges alone, either.) J.B.

March 27, 2002, 03:18 PM	#8
Rickmeister Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 797	"Cómo dice? No entiendo Inglés. Habla usted Español?" Nah, that'll probably get me into more trouble. Better yet: "Bitte, sprechen sie Deutche? Ich spreche Englisch nicht gut." While they scratch their heads and try to figure out whether I am a friend or foe, I'll make a clandestine exit...hand always on my new K40. And three double-taps in mind, if it comes to that.

March 27, 2002, 05:49 PM	#10
pdmoderator Registration in progress Join Date: November 6, 2001 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,202	"Sorry, the agency doesn't permit our team to disclose that information." Realistically, same notes as the others. - pdmoderator __________________ Give up no state. Give up no ground.

March 27, 2002, 09:01 PM	#11
riverdog Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2000 Posts: 824	"Sight alignment, trigger control and 20 years practice." Really, it seems unanimous. First, I don't shoot alone in the National Forest. But for the scenario, I'd be packin' the truck and leaving before they started shooting.

March 28, 2002, 02:28 AM	#12
therookie Member Join Date: February 15, 2002 Posts: 72	For starters, don't shoot alone outdoors unregulated (probably just a good idea overall) Running like hell sounds good, but if that doesn't work, that new age mumbo-jumbo that sounds fancy might work... That and I can't make an 1.5 inch group with a handgun to save my life....

March 28, 2002, 10:16 AM	#13
David Scott Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2000 Posts: 2,456	All good answers, esp. the notions that (A) you should never go alone to the range, and (B) when bozos arrive, it's time to pack up and go. Personally, I'd consider dropping by the ranger station, mentioning the degree of grab-ass being performed, and note that the PD may want to run the Caddy's license plate number (which I noted) and maybe stop 'em and see if those guns are on a hot sheet. __________________ "As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms." -- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss

March 28, 2002, 04:03 PM	#14
Carry24x7 Junior member Join Date: March 18, 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 196	What!? Leave the range!?! And pass up a perfect opportunity to fire somebody else's ammo through somebody else's full-autos!?!?! No way... I'm going to load and holster myself and go over there and teach them how to shoot. And the sooner we shoot through their ammo the sooner they'll leave. And they might leave knowing more than they came with.

April 2, 2002, 02:06 PM	#15
foghornl Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,354	I don't go to un-attended ranges, PERIOD. When the thumping starts, I quit and pack it in for the day. Vist the ranger or local PD with license number and car description.

April 2, 2002, 10:34 PM	#16
Ryder Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 222	Not much chance of meeting any gangstas up here where I live but I did experience something very similar to that from a couple of off duty cops once. I had to step back after getting hot brass ejected all over myself and my 7 year old for two magazines in a row. I had such serious safety concerns being anywhere near them once they began trying to learn quick draws that we backed off the range altogether leaving my guns sitting on the bench. Musta been newbies or reserve wannabees cause they weren't hittin schitt either. If they'd asked me for shooting tips? Hahaha, not even a theoretical possiblility, we didn't exist to them. Half a dozen benches to shoot from and they set up between me and the nearest bench. Most inconsiderate range users I've ever had the displeasure to observe in my life.