1911 Hammer drop (with video)

[MrMcnasty]

Hey all,
I am a long time lurker, not sure if I've actually ever posted here before, so this may be my first post. haha.

Anyway, onto the good stuff...

Sooo, I have a Springfield 1911 A1 USGI that I hated the sights on. So I got myself some novak's, and while I was at it got a wilson combat trigger, sear, and hammer.

Since a gunsmith had to make novak cuts I figured I would have him do the trigger and stuff too while he was at it.

The trigger turned out SWEET, light and crisp, I shot it on fathers day and it was amazing.

ordered a wilson combat extended slide lock/release and while checking it for function I noticed the hammer was following the slide forward occasionally. I put in the stock slide lock and it does the same thing. Now I am REALLY glad I always practice extreme caution and muzzle awareness at the range because an AD or full auto 1911 could have been a possibility from the looks of it.

I have done a bunch of fiddling with the gun now, and I can't get it to do it with a snap cap in a mag. it seems to do it most when there is no mag inserted, which is good... but still...

Here is a video showing the issue at hand. I have to start the video with the slide already locked back, and pause the video between racks since I was filming with my phone in one hand and the 1911 in the other.

Is there something I can do to fix/remedy this? or does it have to go right back to the gunsmith?

Thanks in advance for any help.

https://youtu.be/QXjszjT8QAM

[James K]

The slide stop itself has nothing to do with the hammer following down; how it is used might.

Now here is the "problem". Many 1911 type target pistols have very light trigger pulls and if the slide is released with the slide stop, the impact of the slide going into battery will jar the trigger bar and cause the sear to jump out of the full cock notch; the hammer will be caught either in the half-cock notch or on the safety "shelf", depending on which the hammer has.

That will happen only if the slide is not slowed by feeding ammunition; when firing, the problem will/should not occur.

IF the slide follows down ONLY when the slide is released by the slide stop and with no ammo in the magazine, AND the trigger is otherwise acceptable, the answer is simple - don't release the slide that way. Release the slide by grasping it, retracting it slightly and letting it go forward under control.

If the hammer follows down in normal firing, return the gun to the gunsmith who did the trigger work; it is dangerous.

Jim

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Mr. Mcnasty

Is there something I can do to fix/remedy this? or does it have to go right back to the gunsmith?

That would be back to the same gunsmith who made it unsafe to begin with? I wouldn't trust him with it.

What does the trigger pull show when tested with a scale? There are a couple of things that can cause hammer follow:

• Hammer hooks on sear cut too shallow. Requires new hammer to fix this one.
• Trigger overtravel screw adjusted too far in, not allowing the sear to fully reset.
• Tension on left and/or center leaf of sear spring (or both) set too light. Solution here is to just bend the spring a bit.

[MrMcnasty]

Ok cool, that makes me feel a bit better that it is likely just a normal byproduct of the trigger job since I have yet to get it to do that with snap caps.

Note to self: get in habit it release slide by pulling it back instead.

Part of the reason why I posted here first rather than going straight to the gunsmith (or mentioning their name putting them on blast etc etc) is because of my ignorance on the subject, as this is my first 1911 and first handgun I've had custom work done to.

I gotta say though, out of all the handguns I've had, I am really enjoying the 1911, so much so I ordered a RIA 1911 TAC II in 9mm to dink around with, should have that by the end of the week

Thank you for your insight on this matter

[James K]

As you gather, the reason I put "problem" in quotes is that if the gunsmith is used to working on target pistols, what you experience may be normal and OK, but he should have explained to you what your options were and determined what you wanted. (A 3-4 pound target trigger would have no place on a self defense gun - too much chance of shooting someone by accident/negligence.)

Since he apparently didn't do that, I suspect that he might have not known what he was doing, in which case you might be better off taking the pistol elsewhere or resorting to a DIY job. If you choose the latter, you will have to analyze what he did and then buy new parts (hammer and sear at least). You will almost certainly end up with a heavier trigger pull, but it will likely be safer and you will have the opportunity to learn how the pistol works.

Jim

[MrMcnasty]

Hey James, thanks for the clarification on that. This isnt a defense gun in the sense that I ever carry it anywhere, its my nightstand gun and a range gun. I will just keep one out of the pipe while not at the range.

The overly sensitive trigger is likely my fault / a failure to communicate on both sides, as I took the gunsmith a bunch of these "match grade" parts and asked him to install. when he said "Do you wan't a trigger job too, or do you just want it installed and to make weight" I said go ahead on the trigger job. So he likely thought I was familiar with the byproducts of that. I would assume he is competent since his shop is at a local range and he's been there for quite some time.

While at the range I didn't have one issue with the hammer following the slide while shooting or releasing the slide with the slide lock, so I am fairly confident the weight of the trigger and the lack of ammo slowing the slide down is indeed the issue.

I don't have a trigger scale so I cant measure it. However, I should probably get one since I do plan on tinkering around with the RIA quite a bit (I want to use it as an entry level comp gun and a guinea pig while I learn to work on 1911's myself)

[polyphemus]

Is there something I can do to fix/remedy this? or does it have to go right back to the gunsmith?

If this issue you report was not present before you had the pistol modified then
you can replace the trigger group with original parts.It is quite evident as James K. pointed out that the person who altered it knew not what he was doing so if you take back to him you're calling for further aggravation.
Hammer follow is a dangerous condition,please be careful.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by James K

As you gather, the reason I put "problem" in quotes is that if the gunsmith is used to working on target pistols, what you experience may be normal and OK, but he should have explained to you what your options were and determined what you wanted. (A 3-4 pound target trigger would have no place on a self defense gun - too much chance of shooting someone by accident/negligence.)

Respectfully, I would not put "problem" in quotes. While it is true that this is too often the result of setting the trigger pull too light, the condition is NOT normal for a 1911 and I don't know anyone who considers a gun that does it to be "safe."

MrMcnasty, this condition is a frequent enough issue on target 1911s with light triggers that Colt modifies the trigger/sear mechanism in their Gold Cup models with an additional spring that keeps pressure on the sear until the trigger is pulled, specifically to alleviate this problem.

If the trigger is set so light that you're getting hammer follow but you aren't at least a regionally-ranked bullseye competitor, I respectfully suggest that the trigger is TOO light. It doesn't need to be that light for us ordinary people. If you read any description of how to check out a used 1911 before buying, this is one of the tests. And the recommendation is always that a pistol that allows the hammer to follow in this test is unsafe and should not be purchased, unless the price is adjusted to account for having a gunsmith fix the problem.

I also think you should go ahead and buy that trigger scale. It's not possible to discuss this issue in any more detail without knowing what your actual trigger pull is.

[tangolima]

Isn't a "night stan gun" meant to be for self defense in case you hear something unusual in the middle of the night?

I wouldn't call hammer follow-down normal either. It should not happen even with empty slide released from the slide stop. It is one of the things to check after a trigger job.

-TL

[44 AMP]

Ok cool, that makes me feel a bit better that it is likely just a normal byproduct of the trigger job ..

NO, IT IS NOT!!!

It is NOT the byproduct of a PROPER trigger job!

OK, so the hammer doesn't follow the slide when you use a snap cap, or live ammo RIGHT NOW. But, it WILL. What do you think that "wonderful" trigger job will do when it gets a bit worn in?

1911A1 parts MUST be able to remain engaged while withstanding a certain degree of shock as the pistol fires and cycles. There IS a point where you can go too far "lightening" the trigger. It's a fine line, but when the hammer follows the slide, FOR ANY REASON the line has been crossed.

MAYBE the gunsmith cycled the slide 100 times, and all was well. And on cycle 147 (in your hands) the hammer starts following. He was trying to do the best job he could, and everything was fine when it left the shop, right??

(numbers for illustration only)

No one can predict exactly when the trigger job will fail with live ammo, only that since it HAS done it (empty gun), it WILL DO IT at some point while shooting!!!

WHEN (not if) this happens, you will have either a gun that doesn't work semi auto (won't stay cocked) OR a gun that runs away full auto, and there is no way of knowing which of these will happen, only that eventually something WILL happen. It could take hundreds of rounds (maybe more) OR it could happen the very next time you shoot it.

Get the gun fixed.

Good Luck.

[1911Tuner]

Do a quick test.

Empty gun. Lock the slide to the rear. Pull the trigger fully rearward and hold it there.

Use the slidestop to release the slide.

If the hammer doesn't follow, you can probably cure it by bending the center leaf of the sear spring forward for more tension on the trigger. You'll add about a half pound to the trigger pull, but the trigger will stop bumping the disconnect and moving the sear.

Be sure to support the sear spring a little above the junction before you start crankin' on it, or it'll snap like a dry twig.

If the hammer does follow, you've got more serious problems that won't be as simple to remedy...but I suspect that it's a matter of needing more sear spring tension.

[RickB]

Allowing the slide to drop on an empty chamber - once or twice - is a test of a trigger job. If the gun fails, and yours has, get it fixed.
As noted, it could be something as simple as tweaking a little more resistance into the sear spring, or it could be as serious as the hammer and/or sear needing to be reworked or replaced.
Once the hammer has followed (once), you have to believe that it could follow again.
In the past (40 years ago), it was acceptable to hold the trigger to the rear while loading the gun, to help prevent hammer follow, so some really old gunsmiths or shooters might still think it acceptable, but it's not acceptable or necessary today.

[polyphemus]

Out of my whole small collection(1911's all I got) the nicest trigger by orders of
magnitude is in the '43 Randy and I don't shoot it.
I have FP safeties and no FPsafeties,some better than others but nothing like
Randy I just don't get this trigger job thing.A properly machined pistol does not
need it.I think the trouble comes when gun owners try to customize a production pistol into something it was not made to be in the first place.

[1911Tuner]

In the past (40 years ago), it was acceptable to hold the trigger to the rear while loading the gun, to help prevent hammer follow, so some really old gunsmiths or shooters might still think it acceptable, but it's not acceptable or necessary today.

The practice of holding the trigger back started because of the heavy steel triggers that were used. Since the introduction of lightweight/low mass triggers, it's become largely unnecessary...at least in theory. I know a few BE competitors who still do it...but it's ill-advised for fast "action" type competition. Under the clock, "Pull trigger, release slide" could easily become "Release slide, pull trigger" before the gun is pointed downrange.

At any rate, it's probably the sear spring...evidenced by the fact that it falls to half cock and doesn't do it when he's firing the gun.

[James K]

There are many 1911's with light pulls that will "jar off" if the slide is dropped by releasing the slide stop with the magazine empty or removed. The reason is that when the slide goes into battery it jars the whole gun forward. The trigger bar tries to remain in place from inertia, so it moves back in relation to the gun and strikes the disconnector and through it, the sear.

That is the reason for lightweight triggers and why many target shooters will hold the trigger back while releasing the slide to chamber the first round.

As to pull weight, IIRC, the minimum pull weight for NRA matches is 4 pounds, but I see folks on these sites saying that they have guns with pulls of 2-3 pounds. One person, exhibiting the arrogance of the ignorant, declared that he would never own a 1911 that had more than a 2 ounce trigger pull!

Just for fun, I measured the pull weight of the 1911A1 I have carried and also used as a nightstand gun. It is 7.2 pounds. I think that is about right; I would not want it much lighter in a stress situation.

Jim

[polyphemus]

James you had me scratching m'head.Thiis trigger bar,do you mean the stirup? Please don't give a terminology infarction.
Tuner.so glad you survived your experiment!

[1911Tuner]

Tuner.so glad you survived your experiment

We haven't done it yet.

Hunter promises that it'll be sometime this summer.

Jim meant the trigger stirrup. It's been a while since I've heard it called the trigger bar...but it's a legit term.

[James K]

I think Colt calls the whole assembly the "trigger". Regardless, it is free in the frame with only light spring pressure, and subject to the laws of inertia. That can create problems that would not be present in a gun with a pinned trigger, but a pinned trigger would require a tool for takedown, something Browning avoided because the Army wanted to minimize takedown tools.

Jim

[1911Tuner]

I think Colt calls the whole assembly the "trigger". Regardless, it is free in the frame with only light spring pressure, and subject to the laws of inertia.

Yep. That straight-line trigger can play havoc...especially if it's made of steel and the hammer hooks have been shortened and squared.

Because tweakin' the sear spring is usually part of a trigger job, it's a pretty delicate balancing act to create the proverbial glass rod trigger that so many seem to want these days without causing other problems. Like...hammer follow...for instance.

And to complicate things even further, the balance that is struck when the work is fresh can go sideways when the sear spring changes a little through normal use...or the hammer hooks wear just a wee bit...or both.

I'm with Jim on this one. 56-ounce match grade triggers are great on a slow fire Bullseye course...but they have no place on a pistol intended for serious purpose.

Just my 2% of a buck. YMMV

[745SW]

Personally, with the exception of 22LR, range toy or not a firearm must be reliable with no safety issues. Yes I know of people with light hair triggers but that does not mean it's right or proper.

[745SW]

A probable issue of replacing trigger parts for a very fine trigger is the lack of precision of a production firearm in the first place. It's said the pin holes of the trigger group can be off, not ideal.

[jad0110]

I agree with 44 AMP. If you are getting hammer drop under some conditions, I wouldn't dream of using the gun for self defense. That's all you need ... for the gun to go full auto in a self defense situation . The DA would have a field day with that one.

IMO, a second opinion is in order.

Tuner,

Increasing the sear spring tension might do the trick, but (and I'm no 1911 expert), if the gunsmith in question was nothing more than a hack with a dremel, won't that just be like putting a band aid on a broken leg? If the gunsmith removed too much metal, won't there eventually be a failure as 44 AMP describes?

[Mike_Fontenot]

Originally Posted by James_K

[...]
As to pull weight, IIRC, the minimum pull weight for NRA matches is 4 pounds, but I see folks on these sites saying that they have guns with pulls of 2-3 pounds.
[...]

Some of us just LIKE shooting with light triggers, for ALL our shooting (whether at the range OR in an actual self-defense situation).

I had my (full-time-carry) 10mm 1911's trigger set at about 2-1/2lb, and it worked fine, until I increased the recoil spring from the standard 18.5lb to 20lb (to reduce the battering I was seeing from the full-spec 10mm ammo). With the stiffer recoil spring, the slide slams home harder when a first round is chambered, and I got a hammer-follow (down to the half-cock) once during practice. Normally this is prevented by my technique (staying off the grip lever during first-round chambering), but in this one case, I apparently inadvertently compressed the grip lever very slightly (and it doesn't take much to unblock the trigger on my particular gun).

So, to make sure that my gun was safe (especially for other shooters who don't use my handling techniques) I had to increase the trigger to about 3lb. I don't like it nearly as much as the 2-1/2lb that I had previously, but that's just the price I have to pay for the fact that EVERYTHING is inter-related on a 1911. On my S&W69 .44mag revolver, the trigger is at 2-1/2lb (and feels even lighter than the previous 2-1/2lb trigger on my 1911), and that causes no problems at all, because the trigger pull is essentially unrelated to other functioning of the revolver ... nicest trigger of any gun that I have.

I hadn't heard before about the technique of pulling the trigger before releasing the slide on a new mag, to prevent hammer-follow. I can see why that would work, because the trigger/disconnector won't be reset when the slide slams home. (That's also why I never got any doubling when actually firing with my previous 2-1/2lb trigger). But the order IS critical: pull trigger THEN release slide, NOT the other way!

As to the argument that a 7 lb trigger (minimum) is necessary to prevent inadvertent trigger-pulls under stress, it has been shown that in a startle response, the trigger finger can exert MUCH more than 7 lb (perhaps as much as 50 lb or so). So the idea that a 7 lb trigger will protect you against inadvertent discharges is probably false security. I think that if all of your training is always based on "keeping the finger out of the trigger guard until ready to shoot", that a light trigger is perfectly reasonable in a self-defense gun (provided the gun/holster/handling-techique is safe during all non-firing operations).

[marine6680]

If the trigger has reached the point that its exhibiting hammer follow...


It is no longer acceptable as a defensive pistol... carry or nightstand.



While opinions are mixed on whether or not hammer follow when dropping the slide on an empty chamber, when the trigger has been lightened for target/competition uses, is acceptable...


Such behavior is not good on a defensive pistol... it means the trigger pull is too light as well. Whether you keep it condition 3 or not when it is sitting on the night stand.

Many say that 5.5lb is a minimum for a 1911 trigger to be used for defense, and that is for well practiced shooters.

Light triggers can be seen as a liability. While pistols with trigger jobs with reasonable weight trigger pulls are not likely to be a problem... A very light target trigger may bring up questions.

[45Gunner]

I had a couple of 1911's modified down to 2.5 -3.0 lbs trigger pull. I really liked the light trigger but after several thousand rounds through each of those guns, things started to happen that I didn't like. After having my gunsmith do some further work with me and running a bunch of experiments, I discovered that 3.75 to 4.25 pounds worked great for me and I had all my 1911's retuned that way. I have had no further glitches or strange things happen and I always slingshot the slide...never release it with the slide stop.

In case you're wondering what strange things started to happen, the most common was the grip safety was taken out of the equation and the guns would shoot without gripping the grip safety. Another thing that started to happen is that every once in awhile, the gun would fire off and cycle two or more rounds with a single pull of the trigger. Never want to have that in a gun you are going to use as a carry gun or home defense gun.