Lead bullets for a marlin 336? - Page 3

Salmoneye · January 30, 2014, 07:29 AM

Quote:

I would put forward the idea that when you are shooting soft lead, a shallower rifling angle is more desireable than a sharp rifling angle.

No one has said otherwise...

In fact, lead for MG should be on the hard side and .002 over groove...For greater velocity a gas-checked bullet should also be used...

The 'myth' is that MG will not shoot lead accurately...It is indeed a myth...

MG may require hand loading by someone aware of the needs of MG, but they can quite readily be made to shoot cast with as much accuracy as jacketed...

Also remember that .30-30 in the Win '94 has a twist of 1:12, and that works out to an angle of 4.61º (if I did the math correctly), yet people rave about it's ability to toss lead...Never mind that the original loadings were all 'metal patched' (jacketed)...

Jimro · January 30, 2014, 03:53 PM

Salmoneye,

You did the math correctly.

Still, as long as there are people out there who don't follow the guidelines for shooting a microgroove barrel that "myth" will persist until they figure out how to do it right.

Kinda like the "use a left hand twist barrel South of the Equator" myth never seems to die.... Although that one makes for a better story when you ask for a detailed explanation.

Jimro

Real Gun · January 31, 2014, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:
I don't think everyone's using the same objectives, conditions and standards for judging accuracy.

Jim243- I don't think ANYONE understands that those barrels were not made for lead bullets. Why some one would want to lead up a perfectly good micro-grove barrel with lead is beyond me. The channel cuts are not made to stabilize non-copper jacketed bullets. Being cheap is one thing, but being hard on a perfectly good rifle is criminal.

Mine is in 35 Remington and I have no issues with accuracy when I reload the correct bullets for it.

Would that apply to using gas checks? Sometimes a person has to make his own bullets or be prepared to do so.

Slamfire · January 31, 2014, 10:40 AM

You can find 1950's articles on the introduction of the microgroove barrel. So microgroove was used in rimfires, but I don't think there was any expectation that for the centerfire versions the factory ever considered lead bullets.

Marlin went to a new broaching method, increased the number of grooves, and the claims for the period were with jacketed.

While there are vocal cast bullet shooters, they are a tiny fraction of the actual users of 30-30's. The average user is someone who buys their ammunition from a Country Store/ Gas Station and goes hunting with the rifle. They don't reload and seldom clean the things.

Jim243 · January 31, 2014, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Would that apply to using gas checks?

No that doesn't. The comment was about leading up microgroove barrels. Hard cast and gas checked should do very well in them. And I have a Marlin 22 Mag that is microgroove and is exceptional accurate.

Jim

Quote:

Kinda like the "use a left hand twist barrel South of the Equator"

Isn't that where rivers run North instead of South? (LOL)

Slamfire · January 31, 2014, 11:26 AM

Posted in wrong thread.

Real Gun · January 31, 2014, 07:36 PM

Quote:

While there are vocal cast bullet shooters, they are a tiny fraction of the actual users of 30-30's. The average user is someone who buys their ammunition from a Country Store/ Gas Station and goes hunting with the rifle. They don't reload and seldom clean the things.

That's speculation. The 30-30 is not reserved for rednecks or poor people, and most in this thread are likely reloading for 30-30 Winchester. With its 40-ish length, it is simply a good gun for close cover or scabbard carry, whether horse or ATV. Reloaders have made it reach out to 150 yards and beyond, while it's strength is supposedly closer to 50 yards.

Jimro · January 31, 2014, 08:50 PM

Real Gun,

A 30-30 actually has a "point blank range" zero of about 270 yards (depending on load) with commercial ammo. And yes, it is lethal well beyond that range.

Jimro

Real Gun · February 1, 2014, 09:06 AM

I may be confusing this with my 45 Colt Henry. I am pretty confident of having read those numbers in commentary on one of the caliber rifles I have. It may have been referring to the hunting application of an open sight rifle, historic versus modern ammo. I don't know, but I don't think my brain fabricated the idea.

Thanks for the info. I have a scope on my 336 that may prove useful at ranges like you mention.

Jimro · February 1, 2014, 10:54 AM

Real Gun,

Here is and article on how you can calculate a point blank zero: http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/...9/perfect-zero

Using the numbers for a 45 Colt, 200gr Sierra match bullet at 1400 fps (from a 20" 1892 carbine), with an 8 inch vital zone to set the pipe, (the bullet can't fly more than 4" above or below line of sight), the 45 Colt gets a max PBR of 175 yards, with 407 ft/lbs of energy remaining. 300 ft/lbs is the recommended minimum for big game in the 200 lb class, so it should provide a good thumping on deer, pig, coyotes, etc.

Swap the bullet for a 300 gr Sierra sports master (at 1300 fps), and you still get a 175 yard max pbr zero, but now your bullet whacks critters with 677 ft lbs of energy, moving up to what I would consider good minimum for a 300~400 pound game class (heavy mule deer, black bear for example).

You can check it out for yourself using jbmballistics trajectory calculator. Set the "Vital Zone" to the size of your "pipe" and then check the "zero at max point blank range" option and it will show you your pipe zero.

Jimro

January 30, 2014, 03:53 PM	#52
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Salmoneye, You did the math correctly. Still, as long as there are people out there who don't follow the guidelines for shooting a microgroove barrel that "myth" will persist until they figure out how to do it right. Kinda like the "use a left hand twist barrel South of the Equator" myth never seems to die.... Although that one makes for a better story when you ask for a detailed explanation. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

January 31, 2014, 10:40 AM	#54
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	You can find 1950's articles on the introduction of the microgroove barrel. So microgroove was used in rimfires, but I don't think there was any expectation that for the centerfire versions the factory ever considered lead bullets. Marlin went to a new broaching method, increased the number of grooves, and the claims for the period were with jacketed. While there are vocal cast bullet shooters, they are a tiny fraction of the actual users of 30-30's. The average user is someone who buys their ammunition from a Country Store/ Gas Station and goes hunting with the rifle. They don't reload and seldom clean the things. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading. Last edited by Slamfire; January 31, 2014 at 11:20 AM.

January 31, 2014, 11:26 AM	#56
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Posted in wrong thread. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading. Last edited by Slamfire; January 31, 2014 at 06:40 PM.

January 31, 2014, 08:50 PM	#58
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Real Gun, A 30-30 actually has a "point blank range" zero of about 270 yards (depending on load) with commercial ammo. And yes, it is lethal well beyond that range. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

February 1, 2014, 10:54 AM	#60
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Real Gun, Here is and article on how you can calculate a point blank zero: http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/...9/perfect-zero Using the numbers for a 45 Colt, 200gr Sierra match bullet at 1400 fps (from a 20" 1892 carbine), with an 8 inch vital zone to set the pipe, (the bullet can't fly more than 4" above or below line of sight), the 45 Colt gets a max PBR of 175 yards, with 407 ft/lbs of energy remaining. 300 ft/lbs is the recommended minimum for big game in the 200 lb class, so it should provide a good thumping on deer, pig, coyotes, etc. Swap the bullet for a 300 gr Sierra sports master (at 1300 fps), and you still get a 175 yard max pbr zero, but now your bullet whacks critters with 677 ft lbs of energy, moving up to what I would consider good minimum for a 300~400 pound game class (heavy mule deer, black bear for example). You can check it out for yourself using jbmballistics trajectory calculator. Set the "Vital Zone" to the size of your "pipe" and then check the "zero at max point blank range" option and it will show you your pipe zero. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

February 1, 2014, 09:06 AM	#59
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	I may be confusing this with my 45 Colt Henry. I am pretty confident of having read those numbers in commentary on one of the caliber rifles I have. It may have been referring to the hunting application of an open sight rifle, historic versus modern ammo. I don't know, but I don't think my brain fabricated the idea. Thanks for the info. I have a scope on my 336 that may prove useful at ranges like you mention.