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June 11, 2013, 08:44 PM | #1 |
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Felony conviction and guns you already own...
I know of a guy who was a Class III dealer, CHL instructor, and sold a bunch of weapons like full autos, silencers, etc. To make a long story short, he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and got himself convicted of a serious felony.
Of course, he lost his CHL and dealer privileges, and can't buy a firearm. But I understand that people with felony convictions not only can't buy guns, they can't even possess one. If that's true, I'm curious how it works. He had a TON of weapons, including a big arsenal of Class III toys. So what happens when you become a felon? Do the police go to your house and confiscate your guns, or are you supposed to "turn them in" in good faith or something? I personally have nothing to do with the guy - he's not a friend of mine or anything - but he was just locally very well known in his field, at least until now. He was also my CHL instructor. |
June 11, 2013, 08:55 PM | #2 |
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I would suppose you might get a chance to sell them. If so it would not be in good faith. They would most likely give you a time frame to get rid of them and if you failed to do so in the time allotment they probably just come confiscate them if they don't in the first place. I'm sure if they allow this there is some sort of receipt involved.
However class 3 requires a hard to get permit right? You can bet those permits are gone asap. Which means it is no longer legal for him to have those even if he is not yet convicted. |
June 11, 2013, 08:56 PM | #3 |
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MY understanding is he has to get rid of them - sell them, give them away, they are his property, he just can't own them or be around them
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June 11, 2013, 10:19 PM | #4 |
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This came up in a thread not that long ago. California has a team that does nothing else than retrieve firearms from those deemed no longer eligible to possess them.
I find it rather hard to believe that in this particular case, that a Class III dealer with NFA inventory was permitted to continue to possess them during a felony trial, and that it is being left to chance post-conviction that he will "do the right thing" and dispose of them legally. |
June 11, 2013, 11:34 PM | #5 |
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In this case, I think he lost his NFA license before the trial, and I'm sure he forfeited his inventory stock. I was referring more to personally owned weapons (NFA and non-NFA), not his retail inventory. This is in Texas, by the way. Say tomorrow I got convicted of a felony. Would some LEO knock on my door and clean out my gun cabinet?
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June 11, 2013, 11:47 PM | #6 |
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Being a felon would not preclude one's spouse from owning a bunch of firearms, would it? Meaning if I were convicted of a crime couldn't I sell all my guns to my wife (if I had one)? I would think the only requirement would be I not possess them. Of course, I could completely misunderstand the law.
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June 12, 2013, 12:05 AM | #7 |
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Overhead you may be onto something there, but that is very similar to a straw sale in nature. It is so obvious in fact I'm sure there has to be some sort of exclusion.
But then again we have a lot of stupid loopholes in our laws. This would be interesting to know for sure. |
June 12, 2013, 12:14 AM | #8 |
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G. Gordon Liddy claimed Mrs. Liddy owned a number of firearms.
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June 12, 2013, 12:49 AM | #9 |
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The safest route would be to find a gun shop willing to take them on consignment. Otherwise, I'd hand them off to a relative to sell.
He could give them to a spouse, but he wouldn't want to be caught in possession of them.
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June 12, 2013, 03:39 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
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June 12, 2013, 04:15 AM | #11 | |
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Quote:
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June 12, 2013, 07:48 AM | #12 |
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Interesting. So if I have prescription pain pills with a prescription written to me and she were in the same house with the pills and technically had access to the pills (not locked up) could she be charged with possession of prescription drugs just for being in the same room with the pill bottle?
I don't know the answer to this question. |
June 12, 2013, 08:12 AM | #13 |
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Actually, "ownership" is not so much the issue as "possession." While the terms are often used interchangeably, they are actually separate issues. As was noted, California has squads that go around rounding up firearms from convicted felons. Most states do not, though. My best guess: when the conviction is entered, the judge (or the intake officer, or someone with a badge) tells the newly-minted felon, "If you've got guns, you need to call your wife, your buddy or your grandmama, and have that person go pack them out of the house, so that they're not there when you get back. If you give them to your wife, they'd better be in a safe, and you'd better not have the keys. We've seen that trick before."
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June 12, 2013, 08:57 AM | #14 |
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I tried to do a search on court cases but I came up empty, or course my law library is pretty much wikipedia so I could have missed it. I guess it gets even more complicated, I assume there is a federal statute and there also is probably a state statute and they maybe different. I don't have time to fall down the internet rabbit hole searching for this stuff today, maybe I will have time later tonight.
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June 12, 2013, 09:06 AM | #15 |
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In some jurisdictions, like Florida, you can be convicted of a felony but they withhold adjudication meaning you have the record and you receive a punishment but you don't loose your rights. This usually occurs for first offenses of non violent crimes. Maybe this guy has a similar conviction.
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June 12, 2013, 01:02 PM | #16 |
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In WA, if you are prohibited person, and spouse is not, they can own guns, and have them in the house with you. You cannot have "access" to them. This means the guns have to be secured (safe or locked storage), and you do not have the keys, or combination.
If the safe key is on the ring with the car keys, and hanging up, where anyone can grab them, you have "access", under the current view of the law. G.Gordon Liddy can say, (and do) anything he wants, and I have no idea of the specifics of the law where he lives, but in WA, if Mrs Liddy "stored guns on his side of the bed" where he had access, then they would be breaking the law.
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June 12, 2013, 06:45 PM | #17 | |
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I'm not going to talk about any specific state or federal law. There are laws, however, that bar a felon from possessing a handgun and/or firearm of any type. Most jurisdictions also have a concept called constructive possession where a person is deemed to possess something while not in actual possession. Here is one definition I found that is pretty good:
Quote:
I am aware of persons convicted of constructive possession of drugs and, relative to the question posted, I am aware of persons convicted for felons being in possession of a handgun or firearm. I don't care what G. Gordon Liddy says. A spouse's "possession" of a gun may be deemed to be in the constructive possession of the other spouse if the government can show access to it. |
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June 12, 2013, 06:55 PM | #18 | ||
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The point in that case, United States v. Huet, 665 F.3d 588 (3rd Cir., 2012), was that the gun the prohibited person was charged with possessing was not secured against the prohibited person's access, supporting both the prohibited person's conviction for unlawful possession of a gun and the indictment of his cohabitant. From the opinion (at pg. 593, emphasis added):
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June 12, 2013, 10:12 PM | #19 |
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"Say tomorrow I got convicted of a felony. Would some LEO knock on my door and clean out my gun cabinet?"
Yes and no. When my neighbor got convicted of a felony, I helped him and his son load them ito an unused freezer and then haul the freezer to a storage locker. While in the process of filling the freezer in such a manner that the firearms would not be damaged his probabtion officer and a bunch of sheriff's deputies showed up with the intention of confiscating the guns. They were told the guns had been sold to his son and were being removed from the premises. They even went to the storage place and had their own lock placed and kept the key. is son hunts and he couldn't even get to his own guns. When my neighbor finished his sentence, I had the pleasure of helping him bring his guns home. Took a while as his P.O. couldn't seem to locate the key. If the fellow mentioned by the OP committed a federal felony, then he has no recourse and will never legally be able to regain his personal firearms. The state may be forgiving the the federal government is not. Paul B.
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June 12, 2013, 11:08 PM | #20 | |||
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Quote:
!8 USC 922(g)(1) defines a prohibited person to include anyone (emphasis added):
18 USC 921(a)(20) provides: So unless your neighbor's conviction fell under the exceptions specified in 18 USC 921(a)(20)(A) and (B), or he went the extra step and got his conviction expunged, he would still be committing a federal crime by taking his guns back.
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June 19, 2013, 11:38 AM | #21 | |
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Quote:
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June 19, 2013, 01:14 PM | #22 |
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Upon conviction of a felony a person finds themself banned from owning or possesing a firearm under federal law, and most state laws as well. Will a policeman come and get your gun(s)? that depends on where you live and the attention to detail of the court. In many states the court, and the police will have no idea of what gun's you own. But in a state like california they will know everything about what gun you own. The sourt might (probably) will order you to dispose of what ever firearms you own, and are in possesion of. How you do this depends on the state laws. In NYC... a policeman will come and pick them up. My experience in Florida is they will allow an FFL to pick up the firearm(s). The further disposition of the guns is up to you... You can sell them through the FFL, give them away through the FFL, or abandon them to the FFL.
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June 19, 2013, 05:09 PM | #23 |
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"So unless your neighbor's conviction fell under the exceptions specified in 18 USC 921(a)(20)(A) and (B), or he went the extra step and got his conviction expunged, he would still be committing a federal crime by taking his guns back."
I asked him about that and he has a written court order restoring all his civil rights signed by the same judge who sentenced him. A call to the local BATFE office confirmed that if a judge restored his rights, he was OK. He even has a CCW permit now. Paul B.
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June 19, 2013, 05:38 PM | #24 |
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@Frank, I'm guessing the assumed/inferred timeline is compressed relative to the actual timeline (ie the time elapsed between release from incarceration and the subsequent restoration of his firearms rights) is much greater than it might appear from the original wording.
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June 20, 2013, 12:29 AM | #25 |
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My nieghbors brother was convicted and sent to jail or prison. When he got out, he went to live with his sister, my nieghbor. Before his parole officer would lit him stay there my nieghbor had to store all his guns at my house until he left.
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