40sw snappier than 10mm?

[Oysterboy]

I had my Glock G29 10mm a couple of months and I was shooting Sig Elite 10mm 180 which is 1250 fps. Pretty darn stout loads I'd say, leaves my hand a little sore.

Few days ago I ordered a new rear sight (lower profile to correct high shooting) and a Lone Wolf 40sw barrel and received them yesterday. I went to the range with 10 Sig 180s and 20 Hornady 40sw 165 FTXs.

First I shot the Sig 180s and very satisfied that the new sight put the bullets into the bulls eye and around.

Then I shot the Hornady 40s and got the same groupings but man, my hand's smarting from the snappiness of the 40s. The 165s are 1175 fps.

Now I carry Hornady 10mm 175 Flexlock in my G29 and I shot one which is more pleasant but stout and is 1150 fps.

[testuser79]

It's possible, especially with the 155 and 165 grain loads. For any given power factor, you minimize recoil by maximizing bullet weight and minimize powder charge. Subsonic 155, 165 or 180 gr .40 would probably be less snappy.

I've played with a lot of .40 and 10mm loads and generally have stopped shooting supersonic .40 S&W. If I need the extra power, then I just turn to the 10mm, instead of hot rodding the .40.

[Sharkbite]

Its NOT possible..

Identical gun, just a different barrel.

180gn @ 1250 vs 165 @ 1175. Heavier bullet moving faster= more recoil then a lighter bullet moving slower. Basic physics.

What you MIGHT have experienced is increased muzzle BLAST that made it seem like more recoil. Different powders produce more or less blast and flash. Some people interpet that as recoil.

[JohnKSa]

Could also be that your hand was telling you it had had enough. I put about 1000 rounds through a Glock 20 in a day some years back and I would have sworn the last 100 kicked a lot more than the first 100.

[drobs]

Try some 180gr 40sw. Should be a little less snappy.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by sharkbite

Its NOT possible..

Identical gun, just a different barrel.

180gn @ 1250 vs 165 @ 1175. Heavier bullet moving faster= more recoil then a lighter bullet moving slower. Basic physics.

It's HIGHLY possible. Identical gun, totally different loads with unknown pressure profiles.

Depending upon the powder pressure profiles of the particular 10mm vs the 40 you were shooting, it's highly possible that the 40 uses a shorter but higher impulse to accelerate the bullet. In other words, the 40 accelerates quicker but for a shorter time than the 10mm, creating a "snappier" impulse.

My Suburban rolling in the driveway at 1/10 inch per second (6 inches per minute) has more momentum than either the 10mm or 40 loads described. Yet the felt recoil from pushing it to get it moving that fast is far less "snappy" than any pistol. That's because the impulse is spread over a far greater time period than the impulse used to launch the pistol bullet.

Basic physics.

Same reason astronauts could survive being accelerated to 36,000 ft/sec on the space shuttle. The accelerating impulse is softer but spread out over a far longer time.

[CDW4ME]

I'm not the typical 10mm shooter, I don't want nuclear power loads.
With select loads I see the 10mm (29) as a slightly more powerful 40 S&W (27) alternative.
The 29 has a thicker & heavier slide and thicker grip than the 27 which reduces felt recoil.
Glock 27:
Federal Hydra-Shok 180 gr. @ 940 fps / 353# KE / PF 169
Remington Golden Saber 165 gr. @ 1,028 fps / 387# KE / PF 170
Winchester Ranger T 165 gr. @ 1,113 fps / 454# KE / PF 184*
Glock 29 SF
Handload Barnes Tac-XP 140 gr. @ 1,190 fps / 440# KE / PF 167
Corbon 150 JHP @ 1,231 fps / 505# KE / PF 185*
Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,256 fps / 543# KE / PF 195

The 40 S&W 165 Ranger T and 10mm Corbon 150 JHP have essentially the same power factor (PF)
Felt recoil is greater with the 27 than the 29 given the same PF.

To address this specific thread, look at the PF for the hottest 40 S&W I listed, Ranger T 165, its 184.
Hornady 155 is on the lower end of "full power" 10mm and it has a PF of 195.
The low end of "full power" 10mm produces more recoil than a hot 40.

[stagpanther]

Could also be that your hand was telling you it had had enough. I put about 1000 rounds through a Glock 20 in a day some years back and I would have sworn the last 100 kicked a lot more than the first 100.

1K in a day? Were you by any chance following Jerry Mucilek's plan "How to kill All Your Hand's Nerve Cells"?

[Oysterboy]

You might find this interesting.

I was shooting my Sig P250c with these Hornady 165s and a box of Underwood 40sw 155 XTPs.

Now the Underwood is 1300 fps but the impulse is more like a push (with a report of a magnum) rather than a snap and the 165s were snappier than the 155.

I have nothing against Hornandy as they had been reliable that I have my 9mm, 40sw and 10mm loaded with them for SD.

[KyJim]

45_auto has a very plausible theory. Most shooters overlook impulse and just talk about recoil, but there is a difference. Recoil does not factor in time but impulse does.

[P71pilot]

It is not possible for a standard pressure .40 to have more recoil energy than a stqndard pressure 10mm. Either the 10mm loads you were shooting were extremely watered down, or your hand was just sore and was more susceptable to pain from recoil.

[Oysterboy]

You call the 10mm 180 at 1250 fps watered down?

And the 40sw 165 at 1175 fps standard?

I rested between the 10mm and the 40sw sessions. I took breaks during as well because the G29 is a beast to hold.

[Will Beararms]

The .40 in full size or compact frame handgun iteration is not snappy to me. It's a dang good self defense caliber and the most recent ammo is highly accurate in my Glock 22 Gen. 4.

A Taurus 605 with .357 Magnum is snappy to me. My S&W 442 with any load is snappy.

[Oysterboy]

Well bully for you.

[P71pilot]

Well the standard load for 10mm is a 200gr at 1200fps. So yes a little.

[Oysterboy]

I have this chart here.

[Ocraknife]

Could also be that your hand was telling you it had had enough. I put about 1000 rounds through a Glock 20 in a day some years back and I would have sworn the last 100 kicked a lot more than the first 100.

You're a lot tougher than I am, I'd have a tough time doing that!

[jmr40]

Some people confuse recoil force with recoil speed. The 10mm loads were pushing the gun back into the hand with more ft lbs of energy. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. The lighter 165 gr 40 S&W loads had less recoil, but very likely had more recoil speed.

Some people perceive more recoil speed to be more uncomfortable than actual recoil. You often see rifle shooters compare it to a sharp jab instead of a push. This is really more a mental thing than real. While the push of a slower recoiling gun may seem more comfortable at 1st and for a few rounds many heavy kicking guns are tolerable. After a certain number of rounds the body starts to reach it's limits. The gun with the most actual recoil will eventually prove to hurt more.

[stagpanther]

my "reference" load for full-power 10mm is Underwood's 180 gr xtp doing 1350 fps.

[Nathan]

This is hillarious! If i said i think my 45 Colt kicks more thsn my 458 lott both out of an Encore, what say you?

[Oysterboy]

Some people confuse recoil force with recoil speed. The 10mm loads were pushing the gun back into the hand with more ft lbs of energy. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. The lighter 165 gr 40 S&W loads had less recoil, but very likely had more recoil speed.

Some people perceive more recoil speed to be more uncomfortable than actual recoil. You often see rifle shooters compare it to a sharp jab instead of a push. This is really more a mental thing than real. While the push of a slower recoiling gun may seem more comfortable at 1st and for a few rounds many heavy kicking guns are tolerable. After a certain number of rounds the body starts to reach it's limits. The gun with the most actual recoil will eventually prove to hurt more.

that makes sense. That's what makes the 40sw snappier, the recoil speed.

[JohnKSa]

1K in a day? Were you by any chance following Jerry Mucilek's plan "How to kill All Your Hand's Nerve Cells"?

It was a 1000 round reliability match. I figured I'd do something different since most of the shooters were going to show up with a 9mm or a .45ACP.

It wasn't the most fun I've had with a gun, but it wasn't as bad as the day I put 200 rounds of .44Mag downrange.

You're a lot tougher than I am, I'd have a tough time doing that!

Or maybe I'm just not as smart. I don't do stuff like that anymore...

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by p71pilot

It is not possible for a standard pressure .40 to have more recoil energy than a standard pressure 10mm.

That's a very silly statement. Someone needs to do a LOT more study on the relationships between energy, momentum, and work. It's easily possible. I'll give you an example right here, where a .40 has almost twice the recoil energy of a 10mm:

Standard pressure .40 S&W, 180 grain @ 950 ft/sec in a Glock:

Recoil energy = 5.36 ft.lb.

http://www.hornady.com/store/40-SW-180-gr-XTP/

Standard pressure 10mm, 180 grain @ 1180 ft/sec in an H&K:

Recoil energy = 2.86 ft.lb.

http://www.hornady.com/store/10mm-180-gr-XTP/

SAAMI paper on calculating recoil energy is here. I used a charge weight of 10 grains for the 10mm and 9 grains for the 40 S&W:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...jb2c4g&cad=rja

Couple of excerpts below:

[stagpanther]

With respect 45 auto--your cited 10mm figures are not what I would call "standard"--in fact they represent what a "real" 10mm would be doing at somewhere between 75 and 100 yds from the muzzle after firing!

[45_auto]

Easy enough to change. 3 seconds in an Excel spreadsheet. What do you consider a "real" 180 grain 10mm muzzle velocity?

Even the Buffalo Bore 180's only run 1350 ft/sec at the muzzle, which means that with them the 10mm has 3.74 ft.lb. of recoil energy instead of 2.86. Still substantially below the 5.36 ft.lb. from the Hornady 40 S&W.