How tight a group can you shoot - Page 5

Hal · February 17, 2013, 11:14 AM

Well said Sgt. Lumpy.

Quote:

I did and do have skills to impart and so I teach. It costs me noting, I don't charge and I leave behind me a core of skilled shooters both police military and civilian who will be up for a challenge if they are ever called upon to use their guns.

And that's to your credit.
I, on the other hand, am a terrible "teacher".

Things I could teach would get people with lesser talents hurt or killed.
You'll notice if you care to look back @ 6000 plus posts I've made, I'm extremely careful not to offer any but the most general and/or obvious advice to someone in regards to how to shoot.

I don't compete for any number of reasons. You just happened to touch on one. My "style" is unique to me and the way I shoot. It's not something that should be mimicked.

Peter M. Eick · February 17, 2013, 11:21 AM

I shoot 2 handed, modified weaver stance normally. I have been experimenting with Isosceles but after decades of weaver it is a hard change to make. I view my efforts as ok, but I need a lot of work. I am only at 15 yrds and putting 50 rounds into one target really shows where your skill or lack of skill kicks in. I find fatigue is my biggest issue. After about 35 rounds I start to scatter and that is where I need to focus more.

Today, I would have problems duplicating the targets above because I have not been shooting much in the last 6 months. Business and primers have held me back. Once I get through the crunch and get shooting again, I expect in 6 to 9 months I will be right back on track again.

Some day I will make the complete jump to 25 yrds, but for the short time, I am still going 15/25 depending on how many folks are at the range and what lanes are open.

kahrguy · February 17, 2013, 11:35 AM

Open sights?? I can't shoot worth a darn anymore. Give me a dot or scope and I'm still a purdy good shooter.

darkgael · February 17, 2013, 01:47 PM

Y'know....I have to agree with the comment that "life isn't a contest."
And....y'all are making me rethink that feelng that I carry with me....that competitive drive to measure myself against others.
Sorry if my comments offended anyone.
I do find, though, that competition adds an element to my shooting that is missing when I shoot alone.
Pete

Sharpsdressed Man · February 17, 2013, 06:00 PM

I didn't pull down the target, but today I put five of five well into the head of a B-27 target at 25 yards from a standing, two hand, unsupported position on a 20 degree day here in Ohio with a Glock 29 10mm. It is nice to have a gun that will allow me to do my best. It is sighted dead on, and that group was about the size of a fist. Almost a stock gun; the only change was the previous owner added a front nite site. I am 60 years old, near sighted at about 20/60 in my dominant eye, and was not wearing glasses. If you aim at the same blur, your shots should be rather close together.

jad0110 · February 17, 2013, 09:39 PM

Standing, two handed, unsupported, if I take my time, I'm having a good day and I had a nice bacon and egg breakfast

I can usually put all my shots into a single ragged hole at 7 yards, and about a 3" or so grouping at 25. However, I don't often shoot that way. Most of the time I shoot on the move, behind cover, etc and I adjust my speed to keep my shots more or less in a target the size of a pie plate.

PzGren · February 18, 2013, 12:47 AM

I always considered someone a good shot if he can hit a 9" paperplate at 25 yards every shot of ten shots with an open sighted handgun, rifle would require the same at 100 yards. That would be off-hand, of course.

It is surprising how few people can do that on demand. For a serious target shooter 95% brings him into the top class and he usually has trophies gathering dust at home.

SgtLumpy · February 18, 2013, 10:06 AM

Quote:

darkgael wrote:
Y'know....I have to agree with the comment that "life isn't a contest."
And....y'all are making me rethink that feelng that I carry with me....that competitive drive to measure myself against others.
Sorry if my comments offended anyone.

I certainly wasn't offended. And I apologize if my come back sounded like I was argumentative.

I see a lot of private students (in several fields, music, shooting, athletics et al). A LOT of them, mostly males BTW, seem to want to view "success" as "winning contests". I'm not sure why the girlies are less contest oriented. My teaching approach is to try and allow the student to discover the zen of their movements rather than the "win or fail" mentality. It's not always easy to truly enjoy a trigger pull or a push-up or a single guitar chord. But that's the direction I want to allow my students to go.

I truly believe that ANY individual can excell at ANY endeavor, if they work at it. We were all born with two arms and two legs (some less). None of us were born with the "shooting chromosome" or the "guitar playing chromosome". "Talent" is not something anyone is born with. It's something ANYone can develop. Every one of us has the same challenges we need to confront and ACCEPT. Lots of us will confront and then FIGHT OFF the challenge by adopting the attitude like "Well, he's more talented than me, I could never shoot (play, run whatever) as good as him". To which I say - poo poo. Relax and feel the acceptance of the challenge. Embrace the challenge. Don't try and "conquer" the challenge, use it to improve.

Shoot straight. Straight into little bitty dots, far, far away.

Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

SauerGrapes · February 18, 2013, 02:48 PM

Geez, obviously none of you shoot at my club. Our baffle system is so shot up every year, we spend every good friday replacing badly splintered wood...lol.
I consider myself a decent shooter with a handgun. I'm impressed looking at the targets here.
I'm a ''B'' class USPSA shooter in production and limited-10 div. Shooting bullseye style @25yds, I'm very happy when everything is in the black on a B-16 NRA target.
50 yds? I can't even see 50yds......lol.

AK103K · February 18, 2013, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Our baffle system is so shot up every year, we spend every good friday replacing badly splintered wood...lol.

That wouldnt be BCF&G now, would it?

m&p45acp10+1 · February 18, 2013, 04:17 PM

I can shoot well enough to hit what I need. I am getting better at slow fire off of a sand bag at 25 yards. Though that is still noting to write home about. Here are a couple of targets that I shot with my most recent purchase.

Each was 10 rounds shot from Isocolese with about 2 seconds between shots. I was shooting over a chronograph so I had to slow it down a bit.The distance was 15 yards.

First target had 2 out of the 10 ring. Those were my doing. I was almost standing on one foot waiting for a ride to go to the rest room.

Second was after I got back. I would have my butt handed to me if I were to compete in bull's eye shooting. Though most of my shooting is done one handed.

I should also note I was more concearned with not shooting my buddies chronograph than I was about groups.

Japle · February 19, 2013, 04:27 PM

There’s slow fire and then there’s rapid fire. This was done today with my 625JM at 20 yds. Two cylinders full of my standard 200 gr .45ACP load at about one shot per second. Okay, maybe it was “timed fire” rate.

The group would have been 2 ¾” if it wasn’t for the flyer that opened it up to 3 ¾”.

Old Grump · February 19, 2013, 05:11 PM

Well Japle, I'd say you just about have the hang of it. We will call that stray off to the right an aberration caused by a solar flare and won't mention it again.

This was the first six shots fired from this gun, 10 yards with a cap and ball, 1861 Navy pistol in 36 caliber.

Ambishot · February 19, 2013, 05:28 PM

I've changed my pistol shooting practices over the years. At first I started shooting for the tightest groupings I could get. However, I've recently started focusing on combat accuracy.

Here [attached] are the results from breaking in my G19 at 25 yards with Federal 115gr FMJ.

Prof Young · February 22, 2013, 10:38 PM

Shooters:
I can shoot really tight groups . . . depending on how far I am from the target.

BuckRub · February 23, 2013, 01:55 AM

I can shoot excellent groupings, until I fire the second round

PzGren · February 23, 2013, 12:42 PM

I am so glad that I have not run into some of you guys at the matches where I used a Hämmerli 208 or Walther GSP. I would have been humiliated

.

FlyFish · February 23, 2013, 03:01 PM

Quote:

I am so glad that I have not run into some of you guys at the matches where I used a Hämmerli 208 or Walther GSP. I would have been humiliated.

Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing. I used to feel pretty good about my NRA Expert classification, but now that I know what goes on out there, I'm a bit embarrassed.

SgtLumpy · February 23, 2013, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:
I am so glad that I have not run into some of you guys at the matches where I used a Hämmerli 208 or Walther GSP. I would have been humiliated.

Follow up Quote:
Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing. I used to feel pretty good about my NRA Expert classification, but now that I know what goes on out there, I'm a bit embarrassed.

I've always felt that in shooting, more than any other sport or endeavor, matches were all about PERSONAL scoring and improvement much more than comparing to other shooters.

Seeing some shooter you've seen lots of times before, and who is known for great targets, suddenly throw a flier, for example, is kind of a let down to the rest of the participants - even though his scores may still be way higher than others.

I never feel bad when I see someone shooting tighter groups than me. I might try and pick their brains or get them to coach my shooting..

But I sure try and not look at it like it's a contest. Just a bunch of goofolios out shooting for the day.

And any time I feel like my performance is not "good enough" I'm really confident that practice will improve that performance.

Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

Old Grump · February 23, 2013, 05:50 PM

Quote:

I never feel bad when I see someone shooting tighter groups than me. I might try and pick their brains or get them to coach my shooting.. But I sure try and not look at it like it's a contest. Just a bunch of goofolios out shooting for the day.

And any time I feel like my performance is not "good enough" I'm really confident that practice will improve that performance.

Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

In my case it was being staged between Kim Dyer the women's national champion and Bonnie Harmon, men's national champion at the All Army pistol matches. I talked to him about my front sight problem and he told me to think of the front sight as being connected to the trigger and when I squeezed my trigger I was trying to maneuver the sight back through the center of the rear sight. It added 15 points to my average. Still not a winner in that level but it got me into the top 100 shooters. I even beat Kim on a 22 rapid fire string with x's and there was no way I could do that the day before. I won't tell you what her scores compared to my 45 scores were like. I could get close but never match her. You won't learn if you don't ask.

I use the same trick when I am shooting rifles and it helps even more because of the extra distance involved. I had good days and bad days before, sometimes on the same day but bad days diminished a bunch after that little trick got burned into my 3 working gray cells.

SgtLumpy · February 23, 2013, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Old Grump:
...Bonnie Harmon, men's national champion at the All Army pistol matches. I talked to him about my front sight problem and he told me to think of the front sight as being connected to the trigger and when I squeezed my trigger I was trying to maneuver the sight back through the center of the rear sight. It added 15 points to my average...

Way to go, Grump! And thanks for remininding me of MSG Harmon.

Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

Japle · February 24, 2013, 09:02 PM

I was squadded with Mas Ayoob in an IDPA match once. I was shooting a tricked-out CZ75 SA that I'd used to win my class in the Florida Sunshine State Games. Mas was shooting a fixed sight .44 Spl revolver. He kicked my butt.

There's always somebody better. The trick is to get your skills up to the point where you're that "somebody".

fjlee · February 25, 2013, 02:26 PM

...how good am I at shooting groups with my revolver?

I'm not sure, cuz I've not been shooting my revolver for all that long. I have a Ruger GP100 .357 that I bought new.

I'm still at the stage where I'm carefully keeping records, as I want my shooting to tell me how I am progressing as a shooter, and also to tell me how my reloads are performing on a paper target.

I always shoot by myself, so I don't know what others are doing, or what is capable of being done.........with handguns. I do have a deeper background with rimfire and centerfire rifles.

I shoot at 7 and 25 yards, usually from sandbags. I shoot WW 125 gr. JHP bullets, at various velocities. All my groups are 5 shots.

My best 7 yard group measures .210 inch center to center. I have also shot quite a few other groups that were under 1/2 inch ((at 7 yds)).

My best 25 yards group measures .880 inch center to center. I also have shot several groups that were under 1 Inch ((at 25 yds))

I wish I had started "group size" record keeping on a spreadsheet, so I could quickly determine other bits of info.......such as "Average group size with Load XXX"..........

........and I can't convince my wife to get out all my used targets and enter the data into a SS................

Suffice it to say that my _average_ group size, at any distance, is substantially larger than my "personal all-time record group size".......!!

But it's all fun, eh?

FjLee SW Denver CO

February 17, 2013, 11:21 AM	#102
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	I shoot 2 handed, modified weaver stance normally. I have been experimenting with Isosceles but after decades of weaver it is a hard change to make. I view my efforts as ok, but I need a lot of work. I am only at 15 yrds and putting 50 rounds into one target really shows where your skill or lack of skill kicks in. I find fatigue is my biggest issue. After about 35 rounds I start to scatter and that is where I need to focus more. Today, I would have problems duplicating the targets above because I have not been shooting much in the last 6 months. Business and primers have held me back. Once I get through the crunch and get shooting again, I expect in 6 to 9 months I will be right back on track again. Some day I will make the complete jump to 25 yrds, but for the short time, I am still going 15/25 depending on how many folks are at the range and what lanes are open. __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

February 17, 2013, 11:35 AM	#103
kahrguy Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2012 Posts: 561	Open sights?? I can't shoot worth a darn anymore. Give me a dot or scope and I'm still a purdy good shooter. Last edited by kahrguy; February 20, 2013 at 12:30 PM.

February 17, 2013, 01:47 PM	#104
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Ok Y'know....I have to agree with the comment that "life isn't a contest." And....y'all are making me rethink that feelng that I carry with me....that competitive drive to measure myself against others. Sorry if my comments offended anyone. I do find, though, that competition adds an element to my shooting that is missing when I shoot alone. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member Last edited by darkgael; February 17, 2013 at 03:03 PM.

February 18, 2013, 02:48 PM	#109
SauerGrapes Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2009 Location: S.E.PA. Posts: 920	Geez, obviously none of you shoot at my club. Our baffle system is so shot up every year, we spend every good friday replacing badly splintered wood...lol. I consider myself a decent shooter with a handgun. I'm impressed looking at the targets here. I'm a ''B'' class USPSA shooter in production and limited-10 div. Shooting bullseye style @25yds, I'm very happy when everything is in the black on a B-16 NRA target. 50 yds? I can't even see 50yds......lol. __________________ NRA member, DCF&S member, PAFOA member, USPSA member, NSCA member R.I.P.____Murphy

February 18, 2013, 04:17 PM	#111
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I can shoot well enough to hit what I need. I am getting better at slow fire off of a sand bag at 25 yards. Though that is still noting to write home about. Here are a couple of targets that I shot with my most recent purchase. Each was 10 rounds shot from Isocolese with about 2 seconds between shots. I was shooting over a chronograph so I had to slow it down a bit.The distance was 15 yards. First target had 2 out of the 10 ring. Those were my doing. I was almost standing on one foot waiting for a ride to go to the rest room. Second was after I got back. I would have my butt handed to me if I were to compete in bull's eye shooting. Though most of my shooting is done one handed. I should also note I was more concearned with not shooting my buddies chronograph than I was about groups. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

February 17, 2013, 06:00 PM	#105
Sharpsdressed Man Junior member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,176	I didn't pull down the target, but today I put five of five well into the head of a B-27 target at 25 yards from a standing, two hand, unsupported position on a 20 degree day here in Ohio with a Glock 29 10mm. It is nice to have a gun that will allow me to do my best. It is sighted dead on, and that group was about the size of a fist. Almost a stock gun; the only change was the previous owner added a front nite site. I am 60 years old, near sighted at about 20/60 in my dominant eye, and was not wearing glasses. If you aim at the same blur, your shots should be rather close together.

February 17, 2013, 09:39 PM	#106
jad0110 Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2007 Posts: 761	Standing, two handed, unsupported, if I take my time, I'm having a good day and I had a nice bacon and egg breakfast I can usually put all my shots into a single ragged hole at 7 yards, and about a 3" or so grouping at 25. However, I don't often shoot that way. Most of the time I shoot on the move, behind cover, etc and I adjust my speed to keep my shots more or less in a target the size of a pie plate.

February 18, 2013, 12:47 AM	#107
PzGren Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2001 Posts: 1,259	I always considered someone a good shot if he can hit a 9" paperplate at 25 yards every shot of ten shots with an open sighted handgun, rifle would require the same at 100 yards. That would be off-hand, of course. It is surprising how few people can do that on demand. For a serious target shooter 95% brings him into the top class and he usually has trophies gathering dust at home.

February 19, 2013, 04:27 PM	#112
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	There’s slow fire and then there’s rapid fire. This was done today with my 625JM at 20 yds. Two cylinders full of my standard 200 gr .45ACP load at about one shot per second. Okay, maybe it was “timed fire” rate. The group would have been 2 ¾” if it wasn’t for the flyer that opened it up to 3 ¾”.

February 19, 2013, 05:11 PM	#113
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Well Japle, I'd say you just about have the hang of it. We will call that stray off to the right an aberration caused by a solar flare and won't mention it again. This was the first six shots fired from this gun, 10 yards with a cap and ball, 1861 Navy pistol in 36 caliber. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster-- Last edited by Old Grump; February 23, 2013 at 12:05 AM.

February 22, 2013, 10:38 PM	#115
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	I can shoot really tight groups . . . Shooters: I can shoot really tight groups . . . depending on how far I am from the target.

February 23, 2013, 01:55 AM	#116
BuckRub Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,046	I can shoot excellent groupings, until I fire the second round

February 23, 2013, 12:42 PM	#117
PzGren Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2001 Posts: 1,259	I am so glad that I have not run into some of you guys at the matches where I used a Hämmerli 208 or Walther GSP. I would have been humiliated.

February 24, 2013, 09:02 PM	#122
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	I was squadded with Mas Ayoob in an IDPA match once. I was shooting a tricked-out CZ75 SA that I'd used to win my class in the Florida Sunshine State Games. Mas was shooting a fixed sight .44 Spl revolver. He kicked my butt. There's always somebody better. The trick is to get your skills up to the point where you're that "somebody".

February 25, 2013, 02:26 PM	#123
fjlee Junior Member Join Date: November 10, 2007 Posts: 12	...how good am I at shooting groups with my revolver? I'm not sure, cuz I've not been shooting my revolver for all that long. I have a Ruger GP100 .357 that I bought new. I'm still at the stage where I'm carefully keeping records, as I want my shooting to tell me how I am progressing as a shooter, and also to tell me how my reloads are performing on a paper target. I always shoot by myself, so I don't know what others are doing, or what is capable of being done.........with handguns. I do have a deeper background with rimfire and centerfire rifles. I shoot at 7 and 25 yards, usually from sandbags. I shoot WW 125 gr. JHP bullets, at various velocities. All my groups are 5 shots. My best 7 yard group measures .210 inch center to center. I have also shot quite a few other groups that were under 1/2 inch ((at 7 yds)). My best 25 yards group measures .880 inch center to center. I also have shot several groups that were under 1 Inch ((at 25 yds)) I wish I had started "group size" record keeping on a spreadsheet, so I could quickly determine other bits of info.......such as "Average group size with Load XXX".......... ........and I can't convince my wife to get out all my used targets and enter the data into a SS................ Suffice it to say that my _average_ group size, at any distance, is substantially larger than my "personal all-time record group size".......!! But it's all fun, eh? FjLee SW Denver CO