Liberty Civil Defense 50 grain 9mm from rifle

mukjp22m · October 16, 2013, 01:17 PM

I'm intrigued by those newer 2,000 fps 9mm rounds. While I fully expect the answer to this to be disappointing (if anyone has an answer based on experience), I'm still clinging to hope in the meantime. How fast to these come out of a 9mm carbine, and how accurate are they at a distance? Velocity like that could make for flat shooting at 200 yards, but more likely they fly terribly and lose velocity fast...

Gbnk82 · October 16, 2013, 05:50 PM

I came across those on buds a few days ago while they do sound intresting im not sure how comfortable i would be with a 50 grain self defense bullet in my handgun.out of a carbine it may be intresting though..for now ill stick with my hornady 135 grain +p for for my ccw round as i know it feeds well in my gun hasand good penetration and is made by a proven dependable manufacturer.

Mobuck · October 17, 2013, 06:49 AM

A 50 grain 9mm bullet would have the sectional density of a badminton shuttle cock. Ballistically, this would only be useable for extremely short range and even then, might not have much penetration capability.

mukjp22m · February 1, 2014, 09:15 AM

I tried this yesterday at the longest indoor range around, 75 yards. I shot it from a RRA LAR-9 rifle with a red dot optic and 2x magnifier, and it performed very well at that distance. It formed a 1-inch group, much tighter than the Federal white box 9mm ammo I was also shooting. So, now I'm intrigued. Surely it will group well at 100 yards. What about 200? Once the weather lets up, I'll take it to the outdoor range.

Ozzieman · February 1, 2014, 11:05 AM

I have been trying to find some of those when I first heard of them here. I would be interested is trying some out of my Beretta carbine. I can get 4 inch groups out of my lead reloads at 100 on a really good day and 6 easily.
How was the flash when fired?

JD0x0 · February 1, 2014, 11:54 AM

Quote:

A 50 grain 9mm bullet would have the sectional density of a badminton shuttle cock. Ballistically, this would only be useable for extremely short range and even then, might not have much penetration capability.

Yep, Imagine shooting a .30 carbine cartridge that didn't penetrate well. That's essentially what a 50 grain 9mm is. Similar velocity, larger diameter bullet, with about half the mass of the .30 carbine load. Expect a terrible SD and BC, it's not much different than shooting a shotgun pellet. In fact, 000 buckshot is .36 and has a projectile weight of 70 grains. 00 Buckshot has a diameter of .33 and a weight of about 53.8 grains. Which means that both 00 and 000 buckshot should have better SD and BC's than the 50 grain .355 load. Yuck. That velocity is going to drop FAST due to the pathetic BC of the projectile and the low SD is going to have mediocre penetration. You're probably going to have a bad day, if it's windy too that little bullet is going to blow around quite a bit.
By 70 yards the projectile is likely moving about the speed of a 147 grain .355 bullet, out of the muzzle, with 1/3 the mass. In a 10mph crosswind, you're dealing with over 1 foot of wind drift at 100 yards.

**44 AMP** · February 1, 2014, 01:16 PM

While I haven't seen the bullet in question, based on the numbers, I'd pretty much agree it would be about like a single buckshot pellet, although going much faster to begin with. Agree about the SD, but I think the BC would have to be a little bit better than a round ball. probably not enough to matter, but at least a little better number, it is a bullet, not a sphere, right?

B.L.E. · February 1, 2014, 03:59 PM

I looked up the ballistics of a .350 lead roundball, 65 grains, in Lyman's Black Powder Handbook.
BC = .049

Starting at 2000 fps at the muzzle.

25 yards 1634 fps
50 yards 1330 fps
75 yards 1087 fps
100 yards 946 fps

5 mph crosswind deflection

25 yards .35"
50 yards 1.54"
75 yards 3.76"
100 yards 6.99"

10 mph crosswind deflection

25 yards .71"
50 yards 3.28"
75 yards 7.52"
100 yards 13.98"

At 200 yards you have 641 fps remaining velocity
wind drift:
5 mph 28.25"
10 mph 56.5"

A 50 grain 9mm bullet probably has a BC that's even worse. At 200 yards, hitting anything that the bullet still has the power to kill at that range, (ground squirrels?) would just about be hopeless in even a walking speed crosswind.

This ammo is for close quarters self defense use. Its high velocity makes that light bullet lethal at close range, but it sheds velocity fast. That's the whole point of this ammo, to not be lethal a mile away.
The slower normal bullets at long range will not only buck the wind better but will shoot flatter also because they retain their velocity better.

mukjp22m · February 1, 2014, 04:35 PM

Well, it may be similar in diameter and weight to a buckshot pellet, but it is not a ball, and it is spinning from the rifling. It has a deep hollow-point, but is solid in the back, so it probably does perform much better than a pellet in terms of flight pattern. Also, theoretically you might be right about the heavier bullets shooting flatter at long distances, but what distance? The 50 grain is obviously initially flatter, because of the velocity, so it might not be for a very long distance that the average speed would begin to favor the 115 grain. The 50 grain is probably still moving well over 1,000 fps at 200 yards, meaning it's surely flatter at that distance than a 115 grain starting 1,000 fps slower. That 2,000 fps claim has been confirmed by a few chrono's on the web, and that's from a handgun. Perhaps it comes out of a rifle closer to 2200 fps?

I would agree that lethality at 200 yards is probably not great, and wind probably would affect it a lot. However, I wasn't expecting good performance at 75 yards either, and it was excellent, so who knows for sure until we try? I'll report back in a couple months when I actually try it at 100 and 200. I'm really surprised nobody else on the internet has spoken of this, considering that 9mm carbines are fairly popular.

btw, I didn't notice any difference in flash, but I wasn't looking for it either. The sound was different, and the recoil seemed lighter.

**44 AMP** · February 1, 2014, 04:58 PM

until someone comes up the actual specs on the bullet, so we can calculate what it is actually doing at 100, 200yds, its all essentially moot speculation.

Accuracy can be good, even if the bullet has slowed waaay down. There are other factors involved in that.

I am reminded of the West German 7.62mm Nato training ammo. This stuff had a brass case head, but the case body and bullet (formed in one piece, the bullet tore off when fired) were plastic.

The bullet weighed about 17gr and came out of the muzzle at over 4000fps (maybe close to 5k I don't remember exactly anymore). Up to about a dozen yards, it was lethally dangerous. At 100yds, it stung like..well, a LOT, but wasn't dangerous unless you took one in the eyeball.

That's what sectional density and ballistic coefficient get you. Even though slower, heavier slugs carry more energy, further.

JD0x0 · February 1, 2014, 05:37 PM

SD of 50 grain .355 cal= .057
SD of 00 lead pellet= .061
SD of 000 lead pellet=.077

FWIW the 90 grain hornady XTP in .355 cal has a BC of .099, the XTP being all copper, if I am not mistaken, makes it long for weight, so that would probably be on the generous side of a 90grain HP bullet. I'd venture a guess and say the BC of the 50 grain bullet is between .05 and .06
I was not able to find any info on the net. I'm sure no one has cared to ask since the intended purpose is obviously for close range.

mukjp22m · February 6, 2014, 03:41 PM

I emailed Liberty ammo and they told me that the muzzle velocity from a 16 inch barrel is 2,500 fps. That's incredibly fast. They also said the accuracy at 100 yards was "good", but didn't have an exact dispersion. They had not tested it at greater distances, but I will soon.

mukjp22m · April 18, 2014, 09:01 PM

So, I finally tried it today. Nothing too exciting to report. The liberty rounds were plenty accurate at 100 yards, but no better than the cheap Federal 115-grain FMJ's I was also shooting. Both group maybe 2-4 inches at that distance. At 200 yards, the liberties were dropping a little less, I'd say about 6-8 inches less than the FMJ's. So, a little flatter at that range. Beyond 200, surely the FMJ's would take over in flatness. However, neither was very accurate at that distance. I would say 200 yards is about the max you could reliably hit a human torso with a 9mm. I'd probably rather take the liberty round to the chest at 200 yards, as it probably doesn't have much momentum at that distance. The FMJ would penetrate far more. Shooting into the 340-yard berm, I could not see the liberties splashing at all, but I could pretty consistently see the FMJ splash at that distance. There was a lot of drop, probably around 10 feet. It would be good for little more than covering fire at that distance.

However, in fairness to the 9mm rounds, I only have a 2x magnified red dot. It's possible it would group better at 200 yards with an actual scope on it.

Willie Lowman · April 19, 2014, 06:27 AM

Meh. I'll stick to my 124 and 147 grain for my 9mm needs.

Thanks for the range test though.

Art Eatman · April 19, 2014, 09:31 AM

This reminds me of a 1982 article on the copper "Arcane" bullet for .45ACP. Lathe-turned, sharp conical point, back-drilled for lighter weight. About 90 grains. The author claimed close-range penetration of sixteen layers of Kevlar, both sides of a cardboard box, and the grocery-store chicken inside the box.

In a test by a friend of mine against 3" phone books at maybe five yards, a GI hardball penetrated 1-3/4 books. The Arcane penetrated 3-3/4 phone books.

The article's author claimed that the low SD and large diameter had it slowed to minimal harm to people at 50 yards.

Just off the cuff, IMO this 9mm load might be good on jackrabbits at 100 yards, but it could serve as a self-defense load at common self-defense distances--which to me are generally well inside of maybe fifty yards.

October 16, 2013, 01:17 PM	#1
mukjp22m Member Join Date: October 3, 2013 Posts: 44	Liberty Civil Defense 50 grain 9mm from rifle I'm intrigued by those newer 2,000 fps 9mm rounds. While I fully expect the answer to this to be disappointing (if anyone has an answer based on experience), I'm still clinging to hope in the meantime. How fast to these come out of a 9mm carbine, and how accurate are they at a distance? Velocity like that could make for flat shooting at 200 yards, but more likely they fly terribly and lose velocity fast...

February 1, 2014, 09:15 AM	#4
mukjp22m Member Join Date: October 3, 2013 Posts: 44	Update I tried this yesterday at the longest indoor range around, 75 yards. I shot it from a RRA LAR-9 rifle with a red dot optic and 2x magnifier, and it performed very well at that distance. It formed a 1-inch group, much tighter than the Federal white box 9mm ammo I was also shooting. So, now I'm intrigued. Surely it will group well at 100 yards. What about 200? Once the weather lets up, I'll take it to the outdoor range.

February 1, 2014, 11:05 AM	#5
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	I have been trying to find some of those when I first heard of them here. I would be interested is trying some out of my Beretta carbine. I can get 4 inch groups out of my lead reloads at 100 on a really good day and 6 easily. How was the flash when fired? __________________ It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe. Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe.

February 1, 2014, 01:16 PM	#7
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,843	While I haven't seen the bullet in question, based on the numbers, I'd pretty much agree it would be about like a single buckshot pellet, although going much faster to begin with. Agree about the SD, but I think the BC would have to be a little bit better than a round ball. probably not enough to matter, but at least a little better number, it is a bullet, not a sphere, right? __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 1, 2014, 03:59 PM	#8
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	I looked up the ballistics of a .350 lead roundball, 65 grains, in Lyman's Black Powder Handbook. BC = .049 Starting at 2000 fps at the muzzle. 25 yards 1634 fps 50 yards 1330 fps 75 yards 1087 fps 100 yards 946 fps 5 mph crosswind deflection 25 yards .35" 50 yards 1.54" 75 yards 3.76" 100 yards 6.99" 10 mph crosswind deflection 25 yards .71" 50 yards 3.28" 75 yards 7.52" 100 yards 13.98" At 200 yards you have 641 fps remaining velocity wind drift: 5 mph 28.25" 10 mph 56.5" A 50 grain 9mm bullet probably has a BC that's even worse. At 200 yards, hitting anything that the bullet still has the power to kill at that range, (ground squirrels?) would just about be hopeless in even a walking speed crosswind. This ammo is for close quarters self defense use. Its high velocity makes that light bullet lethal at close range, but it sheds velocity fast. That's the whole point of this ammo, to not be lethal a mile away. The slower normal bullets at long range will not only buck the wind better but will shoot flatter also because they retain their velocity better. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

October 16, 2013, 05:50 PM	#2
Gbnk82 Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2013 Location: Florida Posts: 293	I came across those on buds a few days ago while they do sound intresting im not sure how comfortable i would be with a 50 grain self defense bullet in my handgun.out of a carbine it may be intresting though..for now ill stick with my hornady 135 grain +p for for my ccw round as i know it feeds well in my gun hasand good penetration and is made by a proven dependable manufacturer.

October 17, 2013, 06:49 AM	#3
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	A 50 grain 9mm bullet would have the sectional density of a badminton shuttle cock. Ballistically, this would only be useable for extremely short range and even then, might not have much penetration capability.

February 1, 2014, 04:35 PM	#9
mukjp22m Member Join Date: October 3, 2013 Posts: 44	Well, it may be similar in diameter and weight to a buckshot pellet, but it is not a ball, and it is spinning from the rifling. It has a deep hollow-point, but is solid in the back, so it probably does perform much better than a pellet in terms of flight pattern. Also, theoretically you might be right about the heavier bullets shooting flatter at long distances, but what distance? The 50 grain is obviously initially flatter, because of the velocity, so it might not be for a very long distance that the average speed would begin to favor the 115 grain. The 50 grain is probably still moving well over 1,000 fps at 200 yards, meaning it's surely flatter at that distance than a 115 grain starting 1,000 fps slower. That 2,000 fps claim has been confirmed by a few chrono's on the web, and that's from a handgun. Perhaps it comes out of a rifle closer to 2200 fps? I would agree that lethality at 200 yards is probably not great, and wind probably would affect it a lot. However, I wasn't expecting good performance at 75 yards either, and it was excellent, so who knows for sure until we try? I'll report back in a couple months when I actually try it at 100 and 200. I'm really surprised nobody else on the internet has spoken of this, considering that 9mm carbines are fairly popular. btw, I didn't notice any difference in flash, but I wasn't looking for it either. The sound was different, and the recoil seemed lighter.

February 1, 2014, 04:58 PM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,843	until someone comes up the actual specs on the bullet, so we can calculate what it is actually doing at 100, 200yds, its all essentially moot speculation. Accuracy can be good, even if the bullet has slowed waaay down. There are other factors involved in that. I am reminded of the West German 7.62mm Nato training ammo. This stuff had a brass case head, but the case body and bullet (formed in one piece, the bullet tore off when fired) were plastic. The bullet weighed about 17gr and came out of the muzzle at over 4000fps (maybe close to 5k I don't remember exactly anymore). Up to about a dozen yards, it was lethally dangerous. At 100yds, it stung like..well, a LOT, but wasn't dangerous unless you took one in the eyeball. That's what sectional density and ballistic coefficient get you. Even though slower, heavier slugs carry more energy, further. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 1, 2014, 05:37 PM	#11
JD0x0 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 1,037	SD of 50 grain .355 cal= .057 SD of 00 lead pellet= .061 SD of 000 lead pellet=.077 FWIW the 90 grain hornady XTP in .355 cal has a BC of .099, the XTP being all copper, if I am not mistaken, makes it long for weight, so that would probably be on the generous side of a 90grain HP bullet. I'd venture a guess and say the BC of the 50 grain bullet is between .05 and .06 I was not able to find any info on the net. I'm sure no one has cared to ask since the intended purpose is obviously for close range.

February 6, 2014, 03:41 PM	#12
mukjp22m Member Join Date: October 3, 2013 Posts: 44	I emailed Liberty ammo and they told me that the muzzle velocity from a 16 inch barrel is 2,500 fps. That's incredibly fast. They also said the accuracy at 100 yards was "good", but didn't have an exact dispersion. They had not tested it at greater distances, but I will soon.

April 18, 2014, 09:01 PM	#13
mukjp22m Member Join Date: October 3, 2013 Posts: 44	So, I finally tried it today. Nothing too exciting to report. The liberty rounds were plenty accurate at 100 yards, but no better than the cheap Federal 115-grain FMJ's I was also shooting. Both group maybe 2-4 inches at that distance. At 200 yards, the liberties were dropping a little less, I'd say about 6-8 inches less than the FMJ's. So, a little flatter at that range. Beyond 200, surely the FMJ's would take over in flatness. However, neither was very accurate at that distance. I would say 200 yards is about the max you could reliably hit a human torso with a 9mm. I'd probably rather take the liberty round to the chest at 200 yards, as it probably doesn't have much momentum at that distance. The FMJ would penetrate far more. Shooting into the 340-yard berm, I could not see the liberties splashing at all, but I could pretty consistently see the FMJ splash at that distance. There was a lot of drop, probably around 10 feet. It would be good for little more than covering fire at that distance. However, in fairness to the 9mm rounds, I only have a 2x magnified red dot. It's possible it would group better at 200 yards with an actual scope on it.

April 19, 2014, 06:27 AM	#14
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Meh. I'll stick to my 124 and 147 grain for my 9mm needs. Thanks for the range test though.

April 19, 2014, 09:31 AM	#15
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	This reminds me of a 1982 article on the copper "Arcane" bullet for .45ACP. Lathe-turned, sharp conical point, back-drilled for lighter weight. About 90 grains. The author claimed close-range penetration of sixteen layers of Kevlar, both sides of a cardboard box, and the grocery-store chicken inside the box. In a test by a friend of mine against 3" phone books at maybe five yards, a GI hardball penetrated 1-3/4 books. The Arcane penetrated 3-3/4 phone books. The article's author claimed that the low SD and large diameter had it slowed to minimal harm to people at 50 yards. Just off the cuff, IMO this 9mm load might be good on jackrabbits at 100 yards, but it could serve as a self-defense load at common self-defense distances--which to me are generally well inside of maybe fifty yards.