What would you do? - Page 2

Brian Pfleuger · September 28, 2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

that wasn't true... "bloodshot" the bruising around the wound seemed to be as much related to the velocity of the bullet, as it's weight or diameter...

You're right. A good portion of the "bloodshot" meat comes from the effects of hydrostatic shock more than exactly bullet energy or size/weight. Speed produces hydrostatic shock completely independently of energy or size of the bullet. Energy and size/weight(momentum) will effect the penetration distance and may produce longer channels of lost meat but the diameter of the damage is highly dependent on high speeds causing hydrostatic shock.

On the 357mag.... I'd say you'd be fine for virtually ANY deer at distances out to 100 yards more, depending on the exact load. Contrary to popular internet lore, deer are not hard to kill. Pretty much any handgun with roughly 450ft/lbs or so of energy and just about any rifle bigger than 17 caliber is sufficient, given the proper bullet, placement and distances.

hogdogs · September 28, 2009, 10:31 AM

In my area and preference to be away from the slob hunters, I tend to need a DRT kill to avoid swimming the gator swamps chasing a runner.

On the flip side, I have a friend in a wheelchair so he absolutely can't track into thick stuff. He pokes the front shoulder with his .308... He says the loss of one front shoulder is the price he has to pay be both ethical getting his kill retrieved and to gather the meat he is after.
Brent

hornady · September 28, 2009, 10:46 AM

As stated above, shot placement is critical with the 30 and above. How ever, Several Bullet manufacturers make low recoil rounds. Also if you know someone that is a (competent reloader). They could download your Ammo. for you.

2damnold4this · September 28, 2009, 10:49 AM

How about 30-30?

300magman · September 28, 2009, 10:49 AM

Hogdogs....
That's Interesting, I have only hit a deer in the front shoulder once. It was from ridiculously close range with a 180gr psp federal from my 30.06. Of all the animals I've killed, it is the one that ran the farthest. It seemed to be thrown around 180 degress by the impact, (I say seemed because I'm not sure if a ballistic impact has enough energy to actually do that, the deer might have jumped around so quick it only looked like the bullet threw it around) But regardless, it landed on its feet and took off running (on 3 legs), it went all the way across the clearing 50-70 yards and ran head long into the first tree on the other side of the clearing then fell motionless and 100% dead.
To this day I refer to it as "dead deer running" as it seemed to have no idea what it was doing, it just went straight into that tree and I'm convinced it was dead before it ran into it. As for the running on 3 legs part, the impact of the bullet caused the bullet to turn to fine powder and the shoulder blade was half turned to powder as well and the other half was in about 10 distinguishable chunks. The bullet did not penetrate the shoulder but the impact liquified everything behind the shoulder to the point that all I did was open the deer up, pull out the pounch and everything else, which usually requires cutting and pulling, just ran out onto the ground...Nasty damage. Most meat, save for that shoulder and a few ribs was salvageable though.

I just thought I would mention that, as it is my one story about a shoulder shot and I wouldn't have thought about shooting a deer there if I wanted a DRT impact.
Any idea what kind of bullet your friend uses...probably something that holds together better?

hogdogs · September 28, 2009, 10:54 AM

300, Brian shot one each day both nice bucks on a limited mobility hunt I went with him on... He blew up a shoulder on each and both ran about a 75 foot "U-turn" as they fell over. After the first, as we talked of meat loss he told me he aims for "that spot" and sure-nuff he repeated it the next day.

As for the .30-30, out to 150 yards it kills as dead as any .30 bore rifle.
Brent

GeauxTide · September 28, 2009, 12:05 PM

You might consider a heavier (165 or 180) bullet. They will blow through without making a mess.

300magman · September 28, 2009, 01:01 PM

I assume you mean heavier jacketed, because in terms of weight, it already was 180gr....in my case

Lonestar.45 · September 28, 2009, 05:02 PM

You're "privileged to hunt a section of a well managed private ranch", and you don't want to hunt it now since they require .243 or larger???

I've shot tons of deer with my .270 and didn't detonate and ruin them, many within 50 yds. Same with the 7mm-08 and 30-30.

Buzzcook · September 28, 2009, 08:37 PM

100 pounds and up to about 140 is the average size for the blacktail most folks see. They do get bigger but you have to be pretty darn lucky to get a shot at them.
I took almost all of mine with a .30-06. Not a lot of meat damage, at least no more than the .30-30 I started with.

30-30remchester · September 28, 2009, 09:22 PM

I have shot lots of antelope with a 338 win mag and 375 H&H with very little meat damage, most you can eat right up to the hole.

taylorce1 · September 28, 2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Lonestar .45: You're "privileged to hunt a section of a well managed private ranch", and you don't want to hunt it now since they require .243 or larger???

I was as confused as you at first there, but then I realized the real issue wasn't hunting with a larger caliber it was being told that he had to. I think the OP has his favorite rifle in a smaller caliber and is just ticked that he can't use it.

Quote:

BTW, a 30-06 frontal shot on a hog can liquidate the contents. This makes the rest of the process very odiferious.

This will happen with any shot of this type regardless of caliber.

troy_mclure · September 28, 2009, 10:34 PM

just get you a .45/70 as the saying goes "you can eat right up to the hole".

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 · September 29, 2009, 02:51 AM

G'day. Some parts of the opening statement got me thinking.

Quote:

I am privileged to hunt on a section of a well managed private ranch. Some moron (not on our section) decided to hunt with a .22 Hornet. Management found the dead deer

If it is well managed then they knew (and therefore approved) a .22 hornet was being used to hunt Deer. If they did not know a .22 hornet was going to be used or they didn't know the hunter was going to be there, then the ranch is not well managed. (I think it's called a catch 22)

How did the ranch management know a .22 hornet was used?

Swampghost. I'm not trying to flame you, just found the choice of words interesting.

What caliber did you use on that ranch?
Apart from Deer, what else is there to shoot at on that ranch?
How many people hunt there?

freedom475 · September 29, 2009, 09:50 AM

It's funny to see others perspectives,, and the rules of some places really can be questioned..

I have a small herd of Montana Whitetails that insist on eating my hay for my barn...because of all the livestock and a few houses around I ONLY allow hunting them with MY 22Hornet

Guys who want meat doe's, they come to my house, fire a few shots on tagets to get comfortable with the hornet capabilities ...(this shooting doesn't even scare the doe's from the hey yard less than 100yrds away.

All shots are 60yrds or less. I instruct all shooters to only shoot broadside and aim for the ear canal... I use a 35gr. V-max at 2980fps... and I have Never seen a single deer take a step after the shot... This is like the HAMMER of THOR A big cloud of hair usually drifts lightly in the wind after the shot.

Never seen a exit wound other than a few fragments, so the neighbors and my animals are all kept safe.

Swampghost · September 30, 2009, 10:54 PM

The ranch is large enough to host a full-time game manager and 2 full-time FWC employees, all with families and supply all with individual residences on site.

It leases parcels. The lessees are required to document all kills on their lease and include the lower jawbone of all deer killed.

Somebody made a bad hit with a small cal. I don't have all of the details but assume that they found the deer dead and performed a necroscopy.

S&Cbones, about a dozen on the lease but not all at once. Generally six on any given day.

Taylorf.,my minimum was the 5.65 but it never saw the woods here. The Mini didn't work that well down south. I've been using the .243 as my 'long haul' rifle over the pastures as everybody frowned on my 30-06 when I first entered the camp. At that time IT was considered overkill.

All of this has kept me busy. The 30-06 is sporting new glass, looking at scope mounts for the 30-40 and dialing in my mainstay for the season, 1894 Marlin.

freedom475 · October 1, 2009, 12:06 AM

"Somebody made a bad hit with a small cal."

I think this pretty much sums it up... someone made a "bad hit" and then tried to blame it on the caliber ... I wonder if this same "bad hit would have been lethal even with a big Ultra Mag?

wyobohunter · October 1, 2009, 11:45 AM

This sounds like a job for mr. thuddy-thuddy

Swampghost · October 1, 2009, 11:44 PM

There are also poachers. Given the canal network which limits the access it would be rather simple to apprehend them and nobody wants to be bothered.

crstrode · October 11, 2009, 11:04 AM

Skullandcrossbones wrote:

G'day. In Australia the Kangaroo shooters have to head shoot to be able to sell the game. A Kangaroo head is about the size of a 3/4 grown Rabbit.

Holy Crap! They must grow some grizzly-sized rabbits in Oz.

Or maybe those kangaroos are the size of gophers.

Speaking of gophers - I don't have much of a problem taking out a gopher or a ground squirrel at well over 100 yards. How come you guys are having such a hard time shooting a big ole' deer right between the eyes?

Art Eatman · October 11, 2009, 01:20 PM

Ahem! Cough, cough. To return to the subject of the thread: Thinking about the gun requirement on that ranch: It's their game, so they set the rules. Why worry about why they set their rules the way they want to? Either play by the game's rules or don't play the game.

Worrying about why folks do what they do can lead to ulcers. Hey, I'm not gonna worry about why somebody doesn't like someone else's rules.

kron · October 11, 2009, 01:42 PM

Shot 5 doe last weekend with a 308 using Speer 125gr TNTs. Head or neck shots, and they dropped right away. Heart/lung shots, they ended up running/stumbling 50-75yds and dropped. In all instances, was able to use all quarters, and lost maybe a couple pounds of meat from each deer.

These were all 90-110lb Texas Hill Country deer. So about the same as what you would be hunting.

did see a couple that were shot that weekend with bigger calibers. In every case, shot placement and the angle of the deer determined how much meat was lost. The ones quartering away where bullet exited a shoulder ended up with one forequarter gone for the most part.

September 28, 2009, 10:49 AM	#30
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	^^^^ Hogdogs.... That's Interesting, I have only hit a deer in the front shoulder once. It was from ridiculously close range with a 180gr psp federal from my 30.06. Of all the animals I've killed, it is the one that ran the farthest. It seemed to be thrown around 180 degress by the impact, (I say seemed because I'm not sure if a ballistic impact has enough energy to actually do that, the deer might have jumped around so quick it only looked like the bullet threw it around) But regardless, it landed on its feet and took off running (on 3 legs), it went all the way across the clearing 50-70 yards and ran head long into the first tree on the other side of the clearing then fell motionless and 100% dead. To this day I refer to it as "dead deer running" as it seemed to have no idea what it was doing, it just went straight into that tree and I'm convinced it was dead before it ran into it. As for the running on 3 legs part, the impact of the bullet caused the bullet to turn to fine powder and the shoulder blade was half turned to powder as well and the other half was in about 10 distinguishable chunks. The bullet did not penetrate the shoulder but the impact liquified everything behind the shoulder to the point that all I did was open the deer up, pull out the pounch and everything else, which usually requires cutting and pulling, just ran out onto the ground...Nasty damage. Most meat, save for that shoulder and a few ribs was salvageable though. I just thought I would mention that, as it is my one story about a shoulder shot and I wouldn't have thought about shooting a deer there if I wanted a DRT impact. Any idea what kind of bullet your friend uses...probably something that holds together better?

September 28, 2009, 01:01 PM	#33
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	^^^ I assume you mean heavier jacketed, because in terms of weight, it already was 180gr....in my case

September 28, 2009, 10:34 PM	#38
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	just get you a .45/70 as the saying goes "you can eat right up to the hole". __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

September 29, 2009, 09:50 AM	#40
freedom475 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2008 Location: Rocky Mountains of Montana Posts: 292	It's funny to see others perspectives,, and the rules of some places really can be questioned.. I have a small herd of Montana Whitetails that insist on eating my hay for my barn...because of all the livestock and a few houses around I ONLY allow hunting them with MY 22Hornet Guys who want meat doe's, they come to my house, fire a few shots on tagets to get comfortable with the hornet capabilities ...(this shooting doesn't even scare the doe's from the hey yard less than 100yrds away. All shots are 60yrds or less. I instruct all shooters to only shoot broadside and aim for the ear canal... I use a 35gr. V-max at 2980fps... and I have Never seen a single deer take a step after the shot... This is like the HAMMER of THOR A big cloud of hair usually drifts lightly in the wind after the shot. Never seen a exit wound other than a few fragments, so the neighbors and my animals are all kept safe. __________________ Maker of Horse Tack and Cowboy Gear. www.7xleather.com Mister, why do you carry a 45? "Cause Sam Colt don't make a 46."

September 30, 2009, 10:54 PM	#41
Swampghost Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: Florida, east coast Posts: 2,106	The ranch is large enough to host a full-time game manager and 2 full-time FWC employees, all with families and supply all with individual residences on site. It leases parcels. The lessees are required to document all kills on their lease and include the lower jawbone of all deer killed. Somebody made a bad hit with a small cal. I don't have all of the details but assume that they found the deer dead and performed a necroscopy. S&Cbones, about a dozen on the lease but not all at once. Generally six on any given day. Taylorf.,my minimum was the 5.65 but it never saw the woods here. The Mini didn't work that well down south. I've been using the .243 as my 'long haul' rifle over the pastures as everybody frowned on my 30-06 when I first entered the camp. At that time IT was considered overkill. All of this has kept me busy. The 30-06 is sporting new glass, looking at scope mounts for the 30-40 and dialing in my mainstay for the season, 1894 Marlin. __________________ NRA Patron Member

September 28, 2009, 10:31 AM	#27
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	In my area and preference to be away from the slob hunters, I tend to need a DRT kill to avoid swimming the gator swamps chasing a runner. On the flip side, I have a friend in a wheelchair so he absolutely can't track into thick stuff. He pokes the front shoulder with his .308... He says the loss of one front shoulder is the price he has to pay be both ethical getting his kill retrieved and to gather the meat he is after. Brent

September 28, 2009, 10:46 AM	#28
hornady Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2009 Location: SWPA Posts: 428	As stated above, shot placement is critical with the 30 and above. How ever, Several Bullet manufacturers make low recoil rounds. Also if you know someone that is a (competent reloader). They could download your Ammo. for you.

September 28, 2009, 10:49 AM	#29
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	How about 30-30?

September 28, 2009, 10:54 AM	#31
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	300, Brian shot one each day both nice bucks on a limited mobility hunt I went with him on... He blew up a shoulder on each and both ran about a 75 foot "U-turn" as they fell over. After the first, as we talked of meat loss he told me he aims for "that spot" and sure-nuff he repeated it the next day. As for the .30-30, out to 150 yards it kills as dead as any .30 bore rifle. Brent

September 28, 2009, 12:05 PM	#32
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	You might consider a heavier (165 or 180) bullet. They will blow through without making a mess.

September 28, 2009, 05:02 PM	#34
Lonestar.45 Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2004 Posts: 261	You're "privileged to hunt a section of a well managed private ranch", and you don't want to hunt it now since they require .243 or larger??? I've shot tons of deer with my .270 and didn't detonate and ruin them, many within 50 yds. Same with the 7mm-08 and 30-30.

September 28, 2009, 08:37 PM	#35
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	100 pounds and up to about 140 is the average size for the blacktail most folks see. They do get bigger but you have to be pretty darn lucky to get a shot at them. I took almost all of mine with a .30-06. Not a lot of meat damage, at least no more than the .30-30 I started with.

September 28, 2009, 09:22 PM	#36
30-30remchester Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: mountains of colorado Posts: 977	I have shot lots of antelope with a 338 win mag and 375 H&H with very little meat damage, most you can eat right up to the hole.

October 1, 2009, 12:06 AM	#42
freedom475 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2008 Location: Rocky Mountains of Montana Posts: 292	*"Somebody made a bad hit with a small cal."* I think this pretty much sums it up... someone made a "bad hit" and then tried to blame it on the caliber ... I wonder if this same "bad hit would have been lethal even with a big Ultra Mag? __________________ Maker of Horse Tack and Cowboy Gear. www.7xleather.com Mister, why do you carry a 45? "Cause Sam Colt don't make a 46."

October 1, 2009, 11:45 AM	#43
wyobohunter Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Back in Wyoming Posts: 1,125	This sounds like a job for mr. thuddy-thuddy

October 1, 2009, 11:44 PM	#44
Swampghost Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: Florida, east coast Posts: 2,106	There are also poachers. Given the canal network which limits the access it would be rather simple to apprehend them and nobody wants to be bothered. __________________ NRA Patron Member

October 11, 2009, 11:04 AM	#45
crstrode Member Join Date: August 13, 2008 Posts: 41	Godzilla Rabbits Skullandcrossbones wrote: G'day. In Australia the Kangaroo shooters have to head shoot to be able to sell the game. A Kangaroo head is about the size of a 3/4 grown Rabbit. Holy Crap! They must grow some grizzly-sized rabbits in Oz. Or maybe those kangaroos are the size of gophers. Speaking of gophers - I don't have much of a problem taking out a gopher or a ground squirrel at well over 100 yards. How come you guys are having such a hard time shooting a big ole' deer right between the eyes?

October 11, 2009, 01:20 PM	#46
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Ahem! Cough, cough. To return to the subject of the thread: Thinking about the gun requirement on that ranch: It's their game, so they set the rules. Why worry about why they set their rules the way they want to? Either play by the game's rules or don't play the game. Worrying about why folks do what they do can lead to ulcers. Hey, I'm not gonna worry about why somebody doesn't like someone else's rules.

October 11, 2009, 01:42 PM	#47
kron Member Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 36	Shot 5 doe last weekend with a 308 using Speer 125gr TNTs. Head or neck shots, and they dropped right away. Heart/lung shots, they ended up running/stumbling 50-75yds and dropped. In all instances, was able to use all quarters, and lost maybe a couple pounds of meat from each deer. These were all 90-110lb Texas Hill Country deer. So about the same as what you would be hunting. did see a couple that were shot that weekend with bigger calibers. In every case, shot placement and the angle of the deer determined how much meat was lost. The ones quartering away where bullet exited a shoulder ended up with one forequarter gone for the most part.

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