Trail Boss in a ROA?

[olyinaz]

Well we know that many early cartridges were loaded with black powder and that there are smokeless equvalents for those calibers available today. So why would it not be possible to load some sort of smokeless load in a black powder revolver? Especially the very stout Ruger Old Army? Trail Boss for example?

Just wondering out loud.

Thanks,
Oly

[CaptainCrossman]

exactly, and that's why a new smokeless loading has a big air space in it, with only a dribble of smokeless powder in the bottom- compared to the 1800's when the entire case was filled with blackpowder

yes you can do that, but I don't like to tell people to try it, because the tendency is to get carried away and put too much powder in next time, or switch to faster and faster powders- then kaboom the shooter gets hurt. There is a post on the net where some overly-enthusiastic shooter loaded an ROA for bear to prove it will "take anything"- and did manage to blow pieces off the gun- the guy posting it was the 'smith who repaired the gun for him- and the shooter had to make a trip to the hospital, to get fragments removed from his body. He did load it up with a mother-load of smokeless powder that was way too fast burning.

I have no experience with TRAIL BOSS and if it's a fast powder, then definitely do NOT do it

but in all honesty, 5 grains of Bullseye shotgun powder in a cartridge in an ROA is not going to hurt anything. I've been shooting 5 grains Bullseye behind 125 grain round balls, and 148 grain wad cutter slugs in a much weaker Armi San Paolo home-brewed 1851 conversion, and it's just about right- no black to clean up afterwards, and I can run 150 rounds through it with no cap jams or cylinder fouling (the cylinder has a built in gas check)- and no signs of excessive pressure anywhere. I did have to change the wedge, but that was long overdue anyway.

with 5 grains of Bullseye in the 38 Special case, it's just barely a bottomfull of powder in the case- with a lot of airspace- I settled on that load because it's the general amount of Bullseye powder the cowboy action shooters use. Yes, I know, airspace in a case is not the best idea for accuracy and even pressures shot-to-shot, but using wads and filler material is just too damned time consuming.

so to answer your question, keep the loadings down and the ROA will live just fine- it's bookoo strong, a lot stronger than this Italian ASP 1851- I'd look up a cowboy load first for the 44/45 Colt loadings, and get the LOWEST starting point, and keep it there.

see pic of gun

[Fingers McGee]

NO, NO, NO, NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[olmontanaboy]

What Fingers said Among other reasons, for a percussion revolver is the ignition system. too much blowback thru the nipple. whereas a cartridge is sealed by the case and primer.

[ClemBert]

That my friend is one of those experiments you do in the lab with a safety room to protect yourself and a long string to pull the trigger. Doesn't sound link a cool thing to do if you figure you can't afford to replace your ROA.

I think 40 grains of 777 is as far as I want to push the ROA in its standard configuration although some have experimented with 45 grains with a tapped cylinder.

Maybe we could get MythBusters to do a show and destroy some ROA's and other C&B's to show us what the limits are.

[Noz]

Go ahead and try it. Just tell us where to send the flowers.

[mykeal]

olyinaz - why would one WANT to do it?

[Smokin_Gun]

I thought this was a Black Powder Forum?
I know this has never been a Forum to condone suggested dangerous actions ...
Where's the moderator I think this thread should be dumped to do to dangerous & harmful information being distributed or suggested.
I would have been banned already in other forums for ranting on with harmful possibly fatal information being given.

This will be the last time I reply to the PVT. AIRGUN's Threads

[D.Delozier]

Just because you can do something does not mean you should!! I suggest you adhere to what it says on the gun BLACK POWDER ONLY!!!
(or a suitable substitute i.e. pyrodex, 777. APP )

[madcratebuilder]

Mind boggling that someone would actually give a recommended smokeless load for a BP revolver. You can get killed doing smokeless in a BP. Maybe that's why the Capt has problems breaking all the cheap soft revolvers.

[long rider]

The ONLY time you shoot smokles in a bp
pistol is when you have a conversion cylinder
then you only shoot cowboy loads, as for t/boss
i shoot that in my 58 rem, and yes i do have a
conversion cylinder, max 4.9 grns down to 3.5
grns of t/boss, but like the rest of the guys said
NO you would have to be NUTS to try it with a
p/cylinder.

[olmontanaboy]

Mind boggling that someone would actually give a recommended smokeless load for a BP revolver. You can get killed doing smokeless in a BP. Maybe that's why the Capt has problems breaking all the cheap soft revolvers.

I don't have a clue what he's offered up, but I'm sure it's a do-zee
The ignore list is my friend

[Bigbadgun]

Yeah I dont think it would be to smart to run smokeless thru one of these reproduction revolvers.

[CaptainCrossman]

Olyinaz: I was a bit confused with your question and was thinking "smokeless cartridge cowboy load" in my first reply, cuz that's what everyone usually does when they don't use black/cap/ball- but do you want to put loose smokeless powder in the cap/ball cylinder ? That's another cup of tea, I never did it- nor would I attempt it without firing the gun at least 100 feet away, with a string, in a vice, to test it- myself behind cover. The ball would be seated way down below the cylinder opening, even with a small load of 5 grains of Bullseye powder- it may build a LOT more pressure than using a cartridge/cowboy load, due to the added resistance/compression- and may send fragments of the cylinder back into your face.

I'd not risk it myself- but if you do the experiment, let us know- just be super careful. The problem with these things is, the gun may shoot fine 10 times, then blow up. Why risk it ??

the brass casing inside the cylinder in a cartridge gun, gives added strength/protection to the discharge of the smokeless powder- you're in uncharted territory with loose smokeless in a cylinder- in this case I'd stick with the barrel warning "black powder only"

[CaptainCrossman]

madcratebuilder
Senior Member

Join Date: 2007-11-02
Location: Northern Orygun
Posts: 606

"Mind boggling that someone would actually give a recommended smokeless load for a BP revolver. You can get killed doing smokeless in a BP. Maybe that's why the Capt has problems breaking all the cheap soft revolvers."



madcrate, what is it with you guys ? yourself and a few other fellas bought brass frame revolvers that are made of copper alloy, with the consistency of goo, that are as weak as a Chinese cap gun- yet you can't take an honest opinion of those guns, so then you have an axe to grind and dog my posts- I thought he was loading his own cowboy action type cartridges- not putting loose smokeless in the c/b cylinder, read my post previous here for correction

you need to take a chill pill already, because that 5 grain Bullseye load, is direct from a reloading manual, for cowboy action 38 special- which we know the Italian replicas will take, and certainly a stainless/chrome moly steel ROA will take in spades easily

if you want to worry about something risky that may break, worry about your brass frame pistols- I'll stand by my CARTRIDGE load recommendation- and for the record, went to the range today, and ran ANOTHER 100 rounds through it, round ball seated over 5 grains of Bullseye.

what do you think Uberti and Pietta cartridge guns chambered in 38 special shoot anyway ? "cowboy action loads" of smokeless. Do some research dude !

[CaptainCrossman]

now this is cowboy action cartridge load data, not loose powder in a cylinder- got that MADCRATE ?

FWIW, you can get more velocity with full cylinders of blackpowder than with a cowboy smokeless load- the Walker, ROA, and Dragoons will all easily go over 1000 fps with black/pyro/H777

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=37

38 Special, 4.0gr Traill Boss, Leadheads 168gr Keith, 1.506" OAL, WSP primer, Federal brass, 4" Ruger GP100
720 fps, Std Dev 24 fps, ES 63 fps

44 Special, 5.0gr Traill Boss, generic 240gr LSWC, 1.500" OAL, WLP primer, Starline brass, 4" S&W M29-2
797 fps, Std Dev 10 fps, ES 23 fps

45 Colt, 5.0gr Traill Boss, Black River 255gr LSWC, 1.650" OAL, WLP primer, Federal brass, 5.5" Ruger Bisley
832 fps, Std Dev 17 fps, ES 45 fps

IMR Powder
38 Special 158gr LSWC 2.7 - 4.2gr (13,700 CUP 800 FPS)
44 Special 240gr LSWC 4.0 - 5.2gr (11,700 CUP 763 FPS)
44 Magnum 240gr LSWC 6.0 - 7.3gr (21,600 PSI 917 FPS)
45 Colt 250gr LRNFP 4.5 - 5.8gr (12,700 PSI 727 FPS)


so the question becomes, if 5 grains of Trail Boss in a 45 Colt cartridge is safe, in a cowboy action gun/ROA cartridge conversion cylinder- what would 5 grains of "loose" trail boss do in the blackpowder ROA c/b cylinder, with round ball pressed over it, and a cap ?

that is something you test with a 100 foot long string, from behind a sheet of steel

[4V50 Gary]

Let Mythbusters do the work. They've got the insurance, funding, safety equipment and it's none of our fingers or eyesight at risk. As for us, let's still with manufacturers' recommendations including using only blackpowder (or its modern substitutes) for blackpowder guns.