Head Space - How is it correctly measured? - Page 3

F. Guffey · December 1, 2012, 11:23 AM

“They've used shims between a die's lock ring and the press since then, too. Most common shim and die this was done with is probably the .38 Special dies when set about 1/10th inch higher in the press so .357 Mag. cases could be reloaded with the same die set. I've been using a set of washers doing this for years”

I believe I covered that last week, I can only guess you missed it. The shim before Skip’s shim measured thickness was the difference in length between the 38 Special and 357 Magnum, the difference in thickness between the 44 Mag and 44 special was the thickness of the washer included in the die set. “.38 Special dies when set about 1/10th inch higher” and “I've been using a set of washers doing this for years” again, the shim was added to the die set for seating/crimping bullets, the seating die was raised to facilitate crimping.

“I've been using a set of washers doing this for years” and I said there were reloaders that did not secure the lock ring to their dies because it was a bad habit. Those that did not secure the lock ring adjusted their dies therefore it was not necessary to have the spacer, washer, Skip type shim. Had I been Skip I would have given credit to RCBS, I have never been able to understand how RCBS managed to sell two different sets of dies for the 44 Mag and 357 Mag, if the die was for the 44 Mag and 357 Mag a reloader could not crimp cases for the 44 Special or 357 Mag neither case could reach the crimp portion of the die.

F. Guffey

SEHunter · December 2, 2012, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Nowadays, a collet die's available to do that. www.larrywillis.com is a site that has them. Read the stuff about this die; good to know.

Bart, the link is down as far as i can tell. Is that the only source to locate one of those dies that you know of?

Bart B. · December 2, 2012, 01:05 PM

SEhunter, I search the internet for a site that sells them; nothing showed up on this planet. I just checked his site and it doesn't show up. I've had this happen before referring it to someone then it's not available.

F. Guffey · December 2, 2012, 04:07 PM

“Bart, the link is down as far as i can tell. Is that the only source to locate one of those dies that you know of?”

“SEhunter, I search the internet for a site that sells them; nothing showed up on this planet. I just checked his site and it doesn't show up. I've had this happen before referring it to someone then it's not available”

F. Guffey says your effort will not be wasted on L. Willis’ effort to keep his his brand of tools at the top of Google search. Again, I do not find it necessary to size the belted magnum case in front of the belt, I am the fan of using a wider belt or a more shallow belt cut in the chamber, but! if I size cases to off set the chamber length with the length of the case expect the portion of the case head that is not supported to expand, heavy loads can upset the diameter of the case head, heavy loads can upset the thickness of the case head from the head of the case to the bottom of the cup above the web?

And a case that fits the chamber can stretch even though the clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber is .000”, and, when the clearance between the bolt face and case head is .000”.

F. Guffey

Again, there are shooters of magnum belted chambered rifles that never experience the do-nut in front of the belt, again, I had a new Model 70 Winchester rifle with the ugliest chamber I have ever seen, the most ‘unbrillient’ advise I had was size the case down in front of the belt so I could get the case stuffed into my die, I do not shoot cases from my dies, I shoot ammo from the chamber in my rifles, and I ask Winchester for a chamber that fit my dies or a set of dies that fit their chamber.

F. Guffey

Bart B. · December 2, 2012, 06:45 PM

I apologize for not mentioning that sizing fired belted case bodies down all the way to their belts only gains about 1/4 moa of accuracy. It'll cut 1/2 moa ammo's accuracy by 50%. If the best you and your stuff do is much greater, it'll be much harder to see the advantages of Willis' collet die.

It's like many tools and techniques that separate those on the medal platform and others in contention from everyone else playing the game. Some understand and benefit from it and the rest just keep on doing their own thing.

SEHunter · December 2, 2012, 07:17 PM

I pm'd "Innovative" and he confirmed that the web address is still the same so i guess i will keep trying. Im very excited about getting my hands on this die now that i know what it does and why.

This gun is the only belted cartridge i have and i suppose that i have always been intimidated by it because the techniques are slightly different than what im used to with rimless cases. Learning different techniques help me build confidence so i look forward to the next batch that will be headspaced on the shoulder in conjunction with the Larry Willis die.

(That and the fact i floated the barrel last week and am anxious about seeing if i will close in the 4" group at 200 yards that i had last year...that was a real bummer!)

December 2, 2012, 04:07 PM	#54
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	“Bart, the link is down as far as i can tell. Is that the only source to locate one of those dies that you know of?” “SEhunter, I search the internet for a site that sells them; nothing showed up on this planet. I just checked his site and it doesn't show up. I've had this happen before referring it to someone then it's not available” F. Guffey says your effort will not be wasted on L. Willis’ effort to keep his his brand of tools at the top of Google search. Again, I do not find it necessary to size the belted magnum case in front of the belt, I am the fan of using a wider belt or a more shallow belt cut in the chamber, but! if I size cases to off set the chamber length with the length of the case expect the portion of the case head that is not supported to expand, heavy loads can upset the diameter of the case head, heavy loads can upset the thickness of the case head from the head of the case to the bottom of the cup above the web? And a case that fits the chamber can stretch even though the clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber is .000”, and, when the clearance between the bolt face and case head is .000”. F. Guffey Again, there are shooters of magnum belted chambered rifles that never experience the do-nut in front of the belt, again, I had a new Model 70 Winchester rifle with the ugliest chamber I have ever seen, the most ‘unbrillient’ advise I had was size the case down in front of the belt so I could get the case stuffed into my die, I do not shoot cases from my dies, I shoot ammo from the chamber in my rifles, and I ask Winchester for a chamber that fit my dies or a set of dies that fit their chamber. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; December 2, 2012 at 04:10 PM. Reason: change an i to an o

December 1, 2012, 11:23 AM	#51
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	“They've used shims between a die's lock ring and the press since then, too. Most common shim and die this was done with is probably the .38 Special dies when set about 1/10th inch higher in the press so .357 Mag. cases could be reloaded with the same die set. I've been using a set of washers doing this for years” I believe I covered that last week, I can only guess you missed it. The shim before Skip’s shim measured thickness was the difference in length between the 38 Special and 357 Magnum, the difference in thickness between the 44 Mag and 44 special was the thickness of the washer included in the die set. “.38 Special dies when set about 1/10th inch higher” and “I've been using a set of washers doing this for years” again, the shim was added to the die set for seating/crimping bullets, the seating die was raised to facilitate crimping. “I've been using a set of washers doing this for years” and I said there were reloaders that did not secure the lock ring to their dies because it was a bad habit. Those that did not secure the lock ring adjusted their dies therefore it was not necessary to have the spacer, washer, Skip type shim. Had I been Skip I would have given credit to RCBS, I have never been able to understand how RCBS managed to sell two different sets of dies for the 44 Mag and 357 Mag, if the die was for the 44 Mag and 357 Mag a reloader could not crimp cases for the 44 Special or 357 Mag neither case could reach the crimp portion of the die. F. Guffey

December 2, 2012, 01:05 PM	#53
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	SEhunter, I search the internet for a site that sells them; nothing showed up on this planet. I just checked his site and it doesn't show up. I've had this happen before referring it to someone then it's not available.

December 2, 2012, 06:45 PM	#55
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	I apologize for not mentioning that sizing fired belted case bodies down all the way to their belts only gains about 1/4 moa of accuracy. It'll cut 1/2 moa ammo's accuracy by 50%. If the best you and your stuff do is much greater, it'll be much harder to see the advantages of Willis' collet die. It's like many tools and techniques that separate those on the medal platform and others in contention from everyone else playing the game. Some understand and benefit from it and the rest just keep on doing their own thing.

December 2, 2012, 07:17 PM	#56
SEHunter Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2009 Posts: 332	I pm'd "Innovative" and he confirmed that the web address is still the same so i guess i will keep trying. Im very excited about getting my hands on this die now that i know what it does and why. This gun is the only belted cartridge i have and i suppose that i have always been intimidated by it because the techniques are slightly different than what im used to with rimless cases. Learning different techniques help me build confidence so i look forward to the next batch that will be headspaced on the shoulder in conjunction with the Larry Willis die. (That and the fact i floated the barrel last week and am anxious about seeing if i will close in the 4" group at 200 yards that i had last year...that was a real bummer!)