About Professional Training Tactics

RoyalPython · November 23, 2004, 05:31 AM

I am not a professional in the field of tactical training by any means, so excuse me on my inexperience and ignorance.
There are a couple of tactics I see on television about professional tactical training centers that I do not understand of how they really help any.
One is that that the "good guy" will be going through some mock setup of a house or building and he walks through a doorway and sees a cardboard "bad guy". The "good guy" would then scream out, "Drop your gun!" or something in such a fast and a practically inaudible voice that that anyone wouldn't even understand yet even obey the command. It sounds more like, "Dropyaga!!! Dropyaga!!!"
If I was the "bad guy" I would probably get shot by the "good guy" not because I didn't want to obey his orders, but because I didn't understand him and was more confused by his screaming. I was watching some footage of some guy at some training center who would literally scream at the target to drop his gun and at the same time shoot the target.
Now tell me how screaming at the target to drop his weapon and shooting the target anyways makes any sense?
I also cannot see how a setup using fake targets that don't move or attack back is any good compared to a real person. Yes it may help improve your firearm aim as you shoot at some fake target, but shooting at a fake target takes away the stress of not only having to shoot at a moving target, but takes away the stress of having the "bad guy" shoot at you whether it is real bullets or paintballs. In real life, you aren't going to be standing there in perfect fashion, gun well aimed at target and having full control of the space your in and having all the time in the world to react. A real person shooting at you provides very little if any reaction time. A real life "bad guy" makes a lot of difference in how well trained you actually are in handling your weapon and handling yourself in a stressful and life threatening situation compared to a cardboard cutout of a "bad guy" that poses no stress or danger or will obey your command when you scream "Dropyaga!!! Dropyaga" (Drop your gun) at it.

This is just my humble opinion. I could be wrong.

Shorts · November 23, 2004, 12:03 PM

Quote:

If I was the "bad guy" I would probably get shot by the "good guy" not because I didn't want to obey his orders, but because I didn't understand him and was more confused by his screaming. I was watching some footage of some guy at some training center who would literally scream at the target to drop his gun and at the same time shoot the target.

my guess would be because bad guys don't normally say "could you repeat that please, i didn't understand you". more than likely, the bad guy has already pulled out his weapon and is trying to take the stranger down.

Quote:

I also cannot see how a setup using fake targets that don't move or attack back is any good compared to a real person.

you have to start somewhere - they are called fundamentals. plus, if you used real people and they get shot and die, its called murder/manslaughter.

anyway, the basics of ANY training, whether it'd be sports or self defense tactics, fundamentals must be learned and executed. without fundamentals, anything remotely resembling advanced work is going to be executed poorly. once the mind and body have become accustomed to functioning and moving a particular way, the less a person has to actually think and concentrate and they can just 'do'. that's the basics of motor learning.

para.2 · November 23, 2004, 12:24 PM

Some excellent questions....

There are a couple of schools of thought on "verbalization." One is that in law
enforcement type scenarios, the LEO is required to try to apprehend the suspect, and allow him to surrender, if that is his desire. Obviously it would be suicidal to wait too long for this decision to be made.
The other is that in individual CCW scenarios, we are "creating witnesses" by screaming "drop your gun! Don't make me shoot you!" etc. Bystanders can then say, "Yeah they shooter told the guy to drop his gun, and when he didn't, he shot him!"

On shooting stationary paper targets, even in scenarios, you're largely correct that it's nowhere near the same thing, but, as Shorts has pointed out, we have to learn to handle the firearm first. We start on a stationary square range, then move to paper targets in "shoot houses" and finally graduate to force-on-force training with simunitions, airsoft, etc, against living thinking bad guy role players.

Keep thinking! Your mind is your primary weapon!

eka · November 23, 2004, 09:26 PM

I think the issue of putting reality in training has been well covered. I would just add that giving verbal commands, if possible, is a statutory requirement in most states as well as police policy. If you don't give commands when you train, you won't give commands under stress in real life encounters. As with any other part of your training you have to keep at it until it happens automatically. And it does look good when the shooting is later reviewed for justification.

Take care.

RoyalPython · November 23, 2004, 10:07 PM

Thank you all for your input. You all made sense about shooting paper targets to create the fundementals and how someone yelling "Drop your gun" would save a lot of legal headache if you had to shoot an armed person. But I'm sure that you better make sure he is armed and a danger to you or anyone else before you think that yelling "Drop your gun" is a legal excuse to shoot someone.
I wasn't intentioning for training to involve shooting live ammunition at people, but I'm sure you knew I meant using equipment such as paintball or airsoft weapons.
Though I know that in some exersises live ammo is used and this generates the skill of performing in a loud and intense scenerio and trains you how to safely handle and shoot your weapon when shooting it right next to your partner(s)

November 23, 2004, 05:31 AM	#1
RoyalPython Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2004 Posts: 4	About Professional Training Tactics I am not a professional in the field of tactical training by any means, so excuse me on my inexperience and ignorance. There are a couple of tactics I see on television about professional tactical training centers that I do not understand of how they really help any. One is that that the "good guy" will be going through some mock setup of a house or building and he walks through a doorway and sees a cardboard "bad guy". The "good guy" would then scream out, "Drop your gun!" or something in such a fast and a practically inaudible voice that that anyone wouldn't even understand yet even obey the command. It sounds more like, "Dropyaga!!! Dropyaga!!!" If I was the "bad guy" I would probably get shot by the "good guy" not because I didn't want to obey his orders, but because I didn't understand him and was more confused by his screaming. I was watching some footage of some guy at some training center who would literally scream at the target to drop his gun and at the same time shoot the target. Now tell me how screaming at the target to drop his weapon and shooting the target anyways makes any sense? I also cannot see how a setup using fake targets that don't move or attack back is any good compared to a real person. Yes it may help improve your firearm aim as you shoot at some fake target, but shooting at a fake target takes away the stress of not only having to shoot at a moving target, but takes away the stress of having the "bad guy" shoot at you whether it is real bullets or paintballs. In real life, you aren't going to be standing there in perfect fashion, gun well aimed at target and having full control of the space your in and having all the time in the world to react. A real person shooting at you provides very little if any reaction time. A real life "bad guy" makes a lot of difference in how well trained you actually are in handling your weapon and handling yourself in a stressful and life threatening situation compared to a cardboard cutout of a "bad guy" that poses no stress or danger or will obey your command when you scream "Dropyaga!!! Dropyaga" (Drop your gun) at it. This is just my humble opinion. I could be wrong.

November 23, 2004, 09:26 PM	#4
eka Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2004 Posts: 235	I think the issue of putting reality in training has been well covered. I would just add that giving verbal commands, if possible, is a statutory requirement in most states as well as police policy. If you don't give commands when you train, you won't give commands under stress in real life encounters. As with any other part of your training you have to keep at it until it happens automatically. And it does look good when the shooting is later reviewed for justification. Take care. __________________ EKA Sic Semper Tyrannis

November 23, 2004, 12:24 PM	#3
para.2 Member Join Date: November 9, 2002 Location: Southwest USA Posts: 91	Some excellent questions.... There are a couple of schools of thought on "verbalization." One is that in law enforcement type scenarios, the LEO is required to try to apprehend the suspect, and allow him to surrender, if that is his desire. Obviously it would be suicidal to wait too long for this decision to be made. The other is that in individual CCW scenarios, we are "creating witnesses" by screaming "drop your gun! Don't make me shoot you!" etc. Bystanders can then say, "Yeah they shooter told the guy to drop his gun, and when he didn't, he shot him!" On shooting stationary paper targets, even in scenarios, you're largely correct that it's nowhere near the same thing, but, as Shorts has pointed out, we have to learn to handle the firearm first. We start on a stationary square range, then move to paper targets in "shoot houses" and finally graduate to force-on-force training with simunitions, airsoft, etc, against living thinking bad guy role players. Keep thinking! Your mind is your primary weapon!

November 23, 2004, 10:07 PM	#5
RoyalPython Junior Member Join Date: October 18, 2004 Posts: 4	Thank you all for your input. You all made sense about shooting paper targets to create the fundementals and how someone yelling "Drop your gun" would save a lot of legal headache if you had to shoot an armed person. But I'm sure that you better make sure he is armed and a danger to you or anyone else before you think that yelling "Drop your gun" is a legal excuse to shoot someone. I wasn't intentioning for training to involve shooting live ammunition at people, but I'm sure you knew I meant using equipment such as paintball or airsoft weapons. Though I know that in some exersises live ammo is used and this generates the skill of performing in a loud and intense scenerio and trains you how to safely handle and shoot your weapon when shooting it right next to your partner(s)