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Old March 27, 2014, 12:54 AM   #26
gyvel
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and I also remember most WW2 and Korean War vets trying to forget all about the rifles and how they were used.
You hit a nail on its head, scorch. My dad fought in France in 44-45, and I never understood his reticence about talking of his experiences until I went to Southeast Asia a little over 20 years later.
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Old March 27, 2014, 11:41 AM   #27
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I realize that there's appreciation and american dollar value coming in to play on all this, but it's still a little silly the prices being asked. all of my prices are taken from gun shows, gunbroker and arms list. I spent an entire gunshow weekend trying to get rid of an MAS36 and mosin nagant only to trade them for a reparked enfield and then when had the only person at the show with a M1917 laugh in my face when I offered $500 on account of a shot out bore.
Hmmm, seems to me if you want a good one, pay the price and if you don't want to pay the price don't buy one. Complaining is not going to get you a lower cost one.
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Old March 28, 2014, 06:31 PM   #28
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I don't think the issue is so two dimensional

On one hand we have folks that feel CMP prices are "going rate"
On the other we have folks that think the requirement for a 1000 dollar US milsurp is "shoots and is old"

Personally, I feel the truth is in the middle.
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Old March 29, 2014, 03:08 PM   #29
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Maybe what we need is a war.
Umm, Afghanistan and Iraq spring to mind.
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Old April 2, 2014, 09:47 AM   #30
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The reality is that these items were made at a certain point along our "timeline." We can only travel one direction in time, and these things are left behind. Time and attrition make these things get less and less common, while our population gets more and more numerous.

Let's face it: These things are getting to be 70++ years old. At one time you could buy like new surplus Civil War muskets for probably around a dollar. You can't do that now. A thousand dollar Garand now probably will become a two-thousand dollar Garand in the next 10-20 years. Also, bear in mind that our ever more repressive government will not allow us free access to many weapons that were used by our armed forces after the Garand, M-1 carbine, etc.

Bottom line, dwindling supply and increasing demand.
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Old April 2, 2014, 09:54 AM   #31
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CMP is not affected by govt blocking of imported firearms. "If" more Garands, Carbines, 1903's are returned to the Army from foriegn countries that we loaned them to they will be then turned over to CMP.
CMP is still the best deal around, well under the $1000 mark
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Old April 2, 2014, 11:26 AM   #32
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CMP is not affected by govt blocking of imported firearms. "If" more Garands, Carbines, 1903's are returned to the Army from foriegn countries that we loaned them to they will be then turned over to CMP.
CMP is still the best deal around, well under the $1000 mark
True enough, but I was thinking more along the lines that none of us will ever see "CMP" M-14s, M-16s, etc. (Barring a major revision of existing laws.)
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Old April 3, 2014, 09:58 PM   #33
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I have to agree with the supply and demand paradigm that others have stated. Ar prices went sky high but people came out of the woodwork to make money on that. Now AR's are a dime a dozen and super cheap. Why? They aren't making another 1943 Smith Corona 1903A3 and people pay it. Sarco will run some good deals on O3A3's. Maybe look there.
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Old April 4, 2014, 08:15 AM   #34
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And if you think prices are high now, wait a few years, the price will just keep climbing. I will never, ever sell any of my US military guns again. I did that once to finance a house and while I can't say that it wasn't worth it, I sure haven't been able to replace what I sold for anywhere near the money I got for them.
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Old April 5, 2014, 06:02 PM   #35
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Simply put its the supply and demand.

A lot of interesting and a diminishing supply. People still modify these guns and ruing the value through ignorance if not worse, store them badly etc.

WWI anniversary is coming up and that is going to peak demand again.

Unlike the ARs the price (sand a complete economic meltdown) is not going to fall again. It will go up slowly or jump and hold and then up etc but not going down.

Find a good one if you want it now, its going to get more costly each month that goes by.
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Old April 6, 2014, 08:08 AM   #36
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I feel its much too simplistic to simply assign supply and demand and chalk it up to that basic of economics.

I've seen this happen with objects much, much more expensive than even the Batte M1A1, let alone even a 'correct' M1 rifle or M1C for example.

Rarity is absolutely a factor, and yes, very true: they ain't making them any more. But remember about rarity- the junkyard is full of rare old cars. Rarity is a mitigatory aspect only. In and of itself it means little.

The market is also artificially elevated by people that will pay the outlandish prices that are out of line, and by some of the knowledgeable collectors themselves. The people who are less informed that paid 15 or 20% too much now have a rifle that is "worth" what they paid. In this hobby an educated consumer is not the best buyer when that type of scenario reaches a certain level- which I believe it has- that dictates that this new "error price" for want of a better term is now the 'standard price'. This makes the rifle they thought they were buying even more expensive, which brings me to collectors that do know. When they see say a "correct" M1 rifle going for 1500 bucks and they can spot inaccuracies on it, they can point those out mentally. Now they have ammunition for a higher value for their actually correct weapons- regardless if they sell them or not - buy pointing out the flaws and how their own rifle doesn't suffer from them. Thus their rifle is worth that 'baseline' plus a premium. Now a new higher price can be quoted. And if that rifle is say a '100%' correct rifle, well my 75% correct one is "worth" 75% of that right? There's also a parallel in pro sports, with salaries.

Anyway, this happened with collector American cars from the '60s and '70s. The bubble burst but rebounded well and now it's not easy to participate in that hobby. The average guy can't do it any more. So while I agree, yes, buy these rifles now, they will not get cheaper, I have a very clear grasp of "worth" "price" and "value" and I see the market being churned upward artificially by people who both buy and sell.

Last edited by Chris_B; April 6, 2014 at 08:17 AM.
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Old April 7, 2014, 10:58 AM   #37
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But remember about rarity- the junkyard is full of rare old cars.
Apples and oranges. "Rare old cars" in junkyards are usually damaged beyond repair or rusted hulks. Either way, unsalvageable.

We are talking about a finite and dwindling supply of old guns and an increasing interested population, which (wait for it) results in an increased demand.

Take look at machine guns; A dwindling finite supply and an increasing demand; That's why a NIB Maremont M60 that I could have bought in the 80s for around $1500.00 is now $45,000.00.

Now, increasing population or not, if there were no real interest in old guns, there would be no demand, and, therefore, no increase in prices not accountable as a result of normal inflation.

Last edited by gyvel; April 7, 2014 at 02:04 PM.
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Old April 7, 2014, 06:19 PM   #38
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Apples and oranges. "Rare old cars" in junkyards are usually damaged beyond repair or rusted hulks. Either way, unsalvageable.
Hardly apples and oranges. I also mentioned a lot of other things besides that, by the way, such as how the collectors themselves influence rising price. Two points:

1) You have taken my statement well out of context. Please take my comment about rare cars in the context I provided regarding the quality of 'rarity', instead of removing the key aspect, and I quote myself here:
Quote:
But remember about rarity-the junkyard is full of rare old cars. Rarity is a mitigatory aspect only. In and of itself it means little.
I clearly defined my comment as being only in regard to the single quality of rarity. I could take a WIN 13 M1 rifle, saw it in half, and it's still rare, alright. However, in your example of increasing interest, the classic car market has hardly dwindled.

2) In any case, rare cars in junk yards are not usually "un-salvageable" so long as the VIN is still attached to the shell. Rare cars are worth much more than for example the well documented Batte M1A1 or your run of the mill class III MG...even if I double the price of the M2 BMGs I see online- we are talking about well over 100,000 dollar cars. Respectfully I have some experience in the auto restoration hobby, and I feel I have a valid opinion on the subject.

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Old April 8, 2014, 12:10 PM   #39
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Ah yes and there is the difference; a restored automobile versus an all original automobile of the same make model and year. Which would be worth more?

An all original M1 is an extreme rarity for several reasons. An arsenal repair rebuild is what most of the M1s from the CMP are. Take a 'BlueSky' import and you'll not get near the money and arsenal rebuild. To make matters worse many of the scrapped as un-repairable or worn receivers were cut to destroy them. Bought as scrap and welded back together. Those I'd never buy, but can everyone tell a 'REWELD'?

I bought an all original Sprinfield, 1955 vintage M1 from the CMP a few years back for $900 plus shipping. From what I see at the CMP there are none currently available.

http://www.scott-duff.com/

Peruse this for some rare M1 rifles.
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Old April 8, 2014, 07:55 PM   #40
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This thread was about historical firearms, not rare automobiles.

Firearms are associated with various world-wide earth shattering events; "Rare" automobiles are not, unless you are talking about Hitler's Mercedes or Ferdinand and Sophie's Gräf & Stift from Sarajevo.

I stand by my original statement that there is an increasing demand for U.S. service arms (as well as those of other nations) and a dwindling supply due to these factors: Increased interest in the involvement of these arms in our life-changing military conflicts and an ever-increasing population. (Which has doubled in the U.S. in my lifetime.)

Simple logic tells us that increased interest=increased demand. And increased demand+decreasing supply=increased prices.
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Old April 10, 2014, 11:22 AM   #41
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First of all rarity is a factor. MNs are available for little money as there is a ton of them. No rarity and the price is low.

However, you can have the only M34TLz in the world and if it has no interest, its worth nothing.

So, demand, desire and or area of interest that creates that is a major factor as well.

WWI and WWII have somewhat available service arms in a quantity that allows a wide spread participation as you can get those (Vietnam on of course not).

I like them to shoot, but I also am fully aware of the value and what I am buying or have bought and its collector value. At some point they will be sold as I don't have anyone to hand them down to and they are a small part of retirement investments.

At worst I get back what I paid for and far more likely they go up and maybe a lot. Will see.
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Old April 10, 2014, 12:09 PM   #42
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First of all rarity is a factor. MNs are available for little money as there is a ton of them. No rarity and the price is low.
They are getting rarer, and the price is going up, accordingly.
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Old April 10, 2014, 01:16 PM   #43
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I can't afford to replace any of my old mil surplus rifles. Looks like I am going to have a great estate sale because I am keeping them until you can pry them from my cold dead fingers.
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Old April 12, 2014, 10:41 AM   #44
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and don't forget to factor in the fact that our dollar is not worth what it was, even a few years ago.

Because everyone knows they don't make 'em anymore, and there is increasing interest, which increased with the 50th anniversary of WWII, and really jumped after the movies like Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers, it is essentially a seller's market.

Is Springfield Armory still making new Garands? I know they did for a while. From what I heard, they were good guns, but didn't sell well, because "real" (read historical) Garands were cheaper.

Auto Ord is making new M1 carbines. They are expensive (IMHO, but then, I'm cheap) but considering what's being asked today for the "historical" ones, not terribly so.

I fully agree on the point that people who pay more than they "should", will certainly consider their purchase worth it. If I pay $600 for what ought to have been (and previously was) a $300 gun, then by gosh, I've got a $600 gun, and unless I get desperate, I'm not going to part with it for a penny less!
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Old April 12, 2014, 12:01 PM   #45
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Garands have gotten very expensive. My dad said he got his for about $100 shipped from the CMP program about 10 years ago. Since then, they have gotten rarer and I think OBAMA recently ended the CMP, something about not being able to import any more rifles from outside the US.

Garands used to be the best value rifle you can buy, now you pay a premium for a piece of history.
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Old April 12, 2014, 05:28 PM   #46
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There were no Garands for $100 from CMP 10 years ago. The cheapest they had then as I remember were the woodless Danes $295.00 plus ship
Obama has absolutly no affect on CMP as the do not import anything. Rifles that were loaned to other countries are returned to the US Army when they are done with them then they are turned over to CMP.
You can still get a Garand from CMP for $525
CMP is alive and well today
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Old April 12, 2014, 10:38 PM   #47
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Garands have gotten very expensive. My dad said he got his for about $100 shipped from the CMP program about 10 years ago. Since then, they have gotten rarer and I think OBAMA recently ended the CMP, something about not being able to import any more rifles from outside the US.

Garands used to be the best value rifle you can buy, now you pay a premium for a piece of history.
as you're new to the forum I will try to take it easy on you but you seriously need to research or put disclaimers to your statements.
1. CMP still exists, Obama did not "end" them.
2. 10 years ago, you could barely get an Enfield for $100, no less a garand.
3. CMP does not import the guns that they sell. they get them straight from USG storage facilities. as the obama executive orders do not ban government organizations from re importing us service rifles the CMP is not going to be affected in the least.
4. Garands have not gotten rarer. they are one of the few rifles that do not lend themselves to sporterizing practices. they are not easy to rechamber(because of the clips), they are not easy lighten(because of the stock design), they are not easy to accurize(also because of the stock) and they do not have a design conducive to most scope mounts. there is the occasional guy that cuts the whole thing down to a "tanker" or converts to a box magazine instead of en bloc clips but the vast majority stay original. more garands have been entering the market than being destroyed, the opposite of becoming rare.
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Old April 13, 2014, 01:37 AM   #48
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Whatever the reasons or motivating forces are, the fact remains that all these guns are just going to climb in price. Get 'em now; They'll be more expensive tomorrow.
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Old April 13, 2014, 03:37 AM   #49
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Blame it on the influx of movies from WWII. Hardly anybody cared about Russian bolt actions until "Enemy at the gates" came out. Seems the same with U.S. rifles and Japanese rifles in the last few years. I am out of gun work now, but it always amazed me how people could be influenced to buy (At stupid prices) a gun just from seeing a movie or reading an article. Remember the Smith 29 craze?
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Old April 14, 2014, 02:34 PM   #50
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Remember the Smith 29 craze?
A friend of mine paid $450 for a 6" nickel 29 in 1977. MSRP at the time was $283.50.

On the other hand, he didn't have to wait two years to get the gun!
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