7.62x54R Corrosive Ammo Question

SC4006 · January 15, 2013, 01:00 PM

I am just wondering if what I do to clean my mosin nagant after shooting surplus ammo is adequate. I basically wet a cotton patch with windex and run it down the barrel, then I use another cotton patch with windex and wipe the bolt face, and try and get the chamber with it. Then I resume cleaning with powder solvent as I usually do with my other guns. I occasionally shoot factory ammo like PPU or Winchester, but you just can't beat the cost of shooting surplus corrosive ammo.

emcon5 · January 15, 2013, 03:06 PM

Probably. I would do a couple patches with the Windex though, make sure a lot of liquid gets in the bore.

I used to clean the same way, and never had any issues. Now I just use hot water when I get home.

What neutralizes the salts is the water in the Windex.

bfoosh006 · January 15, 2013, 03:15 PM

A lot of people immerse the muzzle into a can of shallow water and swab the bore from the breech, drawing the water into the bore. I imagine that is how it was done in the field. And use a toothbrush with water on the bolt face.

You are trying to remove the salts left from the corrosive ammo. Water works best for this.

Oil it up when done.

SC4006 · January 15, 2013, 09:08 PM

Alright thanks guys. I think i'll maybe just use a little more windex, and try using a toothbrush to scrub the bolt face and if it fits i'll use it for the chamber too.

ATCDoktor · January 15, 2013, 10:20 PM

I have a WPA VEPR in 7.62X54 and it's a considerably more involved process to clean vice a bolt gun.

That said, I use Hoppes #9 on the bore, bolt and bolt carrier, oprod and gas tube and have never had a proiblem with corrosion.

Takes me about 45 minutes to clean and oil and it's good to go.

Windex will most assuredly remove the salts left behind behind corrosive priming but I don't know how well it removes carbon and powder fouling.

Hoppes will cut that junk to the quick, fast, and it's smell takes me back to the days of my youth.

emcon5 · January 16, 2013, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATCDoktor

That said, I use Hoppes #9 on the bore, bolt and bolt carrier, oprod and gas tube and have never had a proiblem with corrosion.

You might want to rethink that.

Using Hoppes no 9 to clean after firing corrosive ammo comes up fairly often, and one of the previous times this came up, a guy on Calguns ended up calling Hoppes to get the straight answer. Which was: "No"

The old formula worked fine, the current formula, not so much.

This is backed up by the excellent test Surplusrifle.com did a while back, testing various cleaners on removing salt from test strips of steel.

Introduction here:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews2...salt/index.asp

The page you want is here (scroll to the bottom):
http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews2...alt/index2.asp

Hoppes No9 plus is formulated for Black powder, and should work fine on corrosive primers. http://www.hoppes.com/bore-cleaners/no-9-plusl[/url]

**Mike Irwin** · January 16, 2013, 07:59 AM

Technically speaking, NOTHING will "neutralize" the salts in corrosive priming residue because they are, like table salt, a stable compound.

Water DISSOLVES the salts and flushes them away.

Russian cleaning kits often contained a two-compartment bottle.

One side held a strong alkaline and water solution, and the other side held oil.

The alkaline and water solution removed both the primer residue and any residual oil from the bore.

Here's some more information on the Moisin Nagant style cleaning kit: http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...t-Information-

**Mike Irwin** · January 16, 2013, 08:10 AM

"Hoppes No. 9 -- The old formula worked fine, the current formula, not so much."

Yep. This comes up frequently.

Hoppes does have SOME water in it, a component of the ethyl alcohol, but it's not nearly enough to ensure that it will remove corrosive priming salts.

Old forumula Hoppes had benzene in it, which is pretty effective at dissolving salts, but it's also a damned wicked chemical and is now highly regulated.

Erno86 · January 16, 2013, 12:12 PM

For corrosive ammo...I like the Simple Green Solution that I buy at Home Depot ---- or a 1/3 mixture of --- Simple Green, hydrogen peroxide and rubbing alcohol; in a non-clear plastic spray bottle.

When cleaning: use cotton flannel rod patches soaked with Simple Green {or the 1/3 solution} ---- till patches come out clean --- then use bronze core brushes soaked with copper remover {run thru bore six to ten times, repeat process...wait six minutes, then run non-soaked brush six to ten times --- 3 dry cotton flannel patches --- 3 patches soaked with Hoppes #9 --- 3 dry patches --- one oily patch; then one dry patch. Run cotton patches, only once thru the bore --- brushes --- back a forth.

emcon5 · January 16, 2013, 01:56 PM

Quote:

For corrosive ammo...I like the Simple Green Solution that I buy at Home Depot ---- or a 1/3 mixture of --- Simple Green, hydrogen peroxide and rubbing alcohol; in a non-clear plastic spray bottle.

While I am sure that works, simple green has a lot of water in it, and it it makes you happy, knock yourself out.

All you need to clean after firing corrosive ammo is water. I use hot water, right from the faucet. I occasionally boil it, but it isn't necessary.

--Fix bayonet and plant the rifle in the ground. Pour hot water down the barrel and let it water the grass.
--put a catch pan under the rifle.
--Spray the chamber and down the barrel with WD40 (WD="Water Displacement"), until it drips into the catch pan. If you want, run a patch through to push out the excess
--Spray the chamber and down the barrel with CLP/Break Free, until it drips into the catch pan. Run a patch through to push out the excess

Done. The corrosive salts are gone, and you can now put the old warhorse back in the closet/safe/rack/whatever.

If you want to do a full cleaning with powder/copper solvents, you certainly can, but all you need to use after shooting corrosive is water.

reynolds357 · January 16, 2013, 08:06 PM

I always used black powder solvent then finished up with barnes or Montana extreme. Have never shot the Mosin, but have dealt with a lot of corrosive 8mm.

sirdiealot · January 16, 2013, 08:50 PM

that looks about the easiest way ive seen to clean the mosin emcon....quick cheap and if it does the job the way im going to do mine now

Bamashooter · January 17, 2013, 03:04 AM

Mike Irwin nailed it.. Plain ole H2O down the barrel and on the boltface and clean it the way you would normally clean a rifle. I used to disassemble my bolt and clean it but its not necessary. I was also told many years ago that the hoppe's was all one needed to avoid rust but that isnt true. Found that out the hard way. No need for windex, simple green, crud eliminator 1000, or comet. Water and your favorite cleaning product and you are GTG.

**Mike Irwin** · January 17, 2013, 07:29 AM

Once again, I'll make the point that (one I make every time this discussion comes up), if there is oil or other lubricants in the bore of your gun, or on the bolt, etc., plain water may NOT be enough to remove all traces of corrosive fouling.

That's why bore cleaners used by most militaries contained alkalies, soaps, etc.... to REMOVE any oil that might be hiding traces of corrosive priming.

That's why it's a good idea to adopt the same cleaning process that served well militaries world wide for many decades.

Adding a little bit of soap or ammonia or whatever to your cleaning solution isn't hard, its not going to hurt anything, and in fact, it may well stop PREVENTABLE damage to your gun.

Bamashooter · January 17, 2013, 07:59 AM

If... Water by itself works just fine. But you guys go ahead and mix up some lame ass concoction if it makes you feel better. Who shoots a rifle lathered up with oil anyway? Kinda like the windex crap, not necessary. Why wouldnt water alone clean the corrosive salts out of the barrel including the corrosive salts trapped in minute puddles of oil? It will. You can use hot water if you want. Either way water will do its job and regular cleaning after the water will do its job.

**Mike Irwin** · January 17, 2013, 10:52 AM

OK, it's pretty obvious that you have absolutely no clue about the history of corrosive priming and the pervasive issues, including that cropped up in the 1920s.

Investigation into those problems revealed the issues with corrosive priming, the cleaning regimes of the day, and the fact that in order to prevent rusting, a change in how cleaning was done AND a change in the bore cleaners was needed, which included adding either ammonia to the cleaning solution or, later, other types of surfecants.

I guess, though, what you're saying, is that you're so much more "larned" then those dumb military hicks from days gone by. Obviously you have some sort of "new science" knowledge that tells you that water is an effective solvent for gun oils.

You must have discovered some new and previously unknown type of water, so I'd suggest that you run out and patent it lickety split and market it as the newest cleaning solution.

Either that or somehow the laws of chemistry are different where you are.

IF water "worked fine," military and civilan organizations around the world wouldn't have spent years developing, fielding, and marketing specialized cleaning solutions to combat the known problems caused by corrosive priming residue.

Bamashooter · January 17, 2013, 03:05 PM

I dont really care about the history of corrosive salts including that cropped up in the 1920's ???. I know for a fact if you rinse the chamber and barrel with water and clean with hoppe's you will remove the corrosive salts and not have to worry about rust. Water removes the salts and hoppe's takes care of the ''oils''. I never said water alone was the magical solution but water and good ole hoppes #9 seems to be. Could be the chlorine in the water aiding in the salt removal. Its been working for me and my three mosin's for over 10yrs. Dont know jack about chemistry, just what works on corrosive ammo in my rifles.

reynolds357 · January 17, 2013, 06:00 PM

Black powder solvent is by far the best. It takes care of oil and corrosive salts. It is also simple. I even store my rifles that shoot corrosive with bore butter in them. The water cleaning I used to do let me down and I lost a $480 barrel on a Ruger 1H Tropical.

m&p45acp10+1 · January 17, 2013, 07:38 PM

A squirt bottle of water works well. Pull bolt, point barrel down. Squirt watter through bore. Run a couple of dry patches through the barrel. If you feel like it repeat witht the water, and a few more dry patches. Follow with a couple of patches soaked with your choice of gun cleaning solovent. Patch out the solovent. Dampen a patch with oil. Run it through. Follow with a couple of dry pathces. Wipe the rest of the rifle, and the bolt down with an oil soaked patch. Then wipe with a clean dry patch. Replace the bolt. Done.

Takes about 10 to 20 depeinding.

Heavy Metal 1 · January 19, 2013, 10:23 AM

I keep some h20 in a well cleaned out nasal spray bottle & keep that in my range box. I use it to douse the bore and run wet patches thru it & the bolt face, then clean w/ conventional cleaners, then oil. I use 5-20w synthetic motor oil as it has more "stick" to it than say Rem oil and it seems to have some cleaning power of its own. It is also substantially less expensive than commercial gun oils and a quart lasts for years. About every other range session or so I use Wipe Out foaming bore cleaner instead of Hoppes, etc and that really gets the crud out. I never thought about black powder solvent...that seems logical and when I run out of the Hoppes in my range box I will try that.

**Mike Irwin** · January 19, 2013, 05:06 PM

" The water cleaning I used to do let me down and I lost a $480 barrel on a Ruger 1H Tropical."

You're not the first person I know who has had that happen... stored the gun with an oiled bore, fired some corrosive ammo, did a water flush followed by some oiled patches, only to come back some months later and find a sewer pipe where they left their rifle.

Just curious, what were you shooting? Some old ICI or Kynoch .375?

reynolds357 · January 19, 2013, 10:43 PM

It was some old .416 Rigby ammo we found in the vault of an 80 year old man I worked for. That was 15 years ago that he gave it to me. I got around to shooting it a couple years ago. It had the potential for being some old stuff. I assumed it was corrosive and cleaned accordingly, but did not know for sure what the ammo was. Obviously my cleaning regimine did not work. He probably got in in Africa, he used to go on Safari every year. I gave the brass away. I need to see if the person I gave it to still has it so I can figure out exactly what it was. The person I gave it to used it to feed his wildcat.

January 15, 2013, 01:00 PM	#1
SC4006 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2012 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 525	7.62x54R Corrosive Ammo Question I am just wondering if what I do to clean my mosin nagant after shooting surplus ammo is adequate. I basically wet a cotton patch with windex and run it down the barrel, then I use another cotton patch with windex and wipe the bolt face, and try and get the chamber with it. Then I resume cleaning with powder solvent as I usually do with my other guns. I occasionally shoot factory ammo like PPU or Winchester, but you just can't beat the cost of shooting surplus corrosive ammo. __________________ I don't always go to the range, but when I do, I prefer dosAKs. They say 5 out of 4 people are bad at math.

January 15, 2013, 09:08 PM	#4
SC4006 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2012 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 525	Alright thanks guys. I think i'll maybe just use a little more windex, and try using a toothbrush to scrub the bolt face and if it fits i'll use it for the chamber too. __________________ I don't always go to the range, but when I do, I prefer dosAKs. They say 5 out of 4 people are bad at math.

January 16, 2013, 07:59 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	Technically speaking, NOTHING will "neutralize" the salts in corrosive priming residue because they are, like table salt, a stable compound. Water DISSOLVES the salts and flushes them away. Russian cleaning kits often contained a two-compartment bottle. One side held a strong alkaline and water solution, and the other side held oil. The alkaline and water solution removed both the primer residue and any residual oil from the bore. Here's some more information on the Moisin Nagant style cleaning kit: http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...t-Information- __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 16, 2013, 08:10 AM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	"Hoppes No. 9 -- The old formula worked fine, the current formula, not so much." Yep. This comes up frequently. Hoppes does have SOME water in it, a component of the ethyl alcohol, but it's not nearly enough to ensure that it will remove corrosive priming salts. Old forumula Hoppes had benzene in it, which is pretty effective at dissolving salts, but it's also a damned wicked chemical and is now highly regulated. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 16, 2013, 08:50 PM	#12
sirdiealot Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2012 Location: kansas Posts: 187	that looks about the easiest way ive seen to clean the mosin emcon....quick cheap and if it does the job the way im going to do mine now __________________ 9mm Luger: ...Wildly popular all over the world, mostly in countries where people don’t carry guns, and cops don’t have to actually shoot people with theirs.

January 15, 2013, 03:06 PM	#2
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	Probably. I would do a couple patches with the Windex though, make sure a lot of liquid gets in the bore. I used to clean the same way, and never had any issues. Now I just use hot water when I get home. What neutralizes the salts is the water in the Windex.

January 15, 2013, 03:15 PM	#3
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	A lot of people immerse the muzzle into a can of shallow water and swab the bore from the breech, drawing the water into the bore. I imagine that is how it was done in the field. And use a toothbrush with water on the bolt face. You are trying to remove the salts left from the corrosive ammo. Water works best for this. Oil it up when done.

January 15, 2013, 10:20 PM	#5
ATCDoktor Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2006 Posts: 172	I have a WPA VEPR in 7.62X54 and it's a considerably more involved process to clean vice a bolt gun. That said, I use Hoppes #9 on the bore, bolt and bolt carrier, oprod and gas tube and have never had a proiblem with corrosion. Takes me about 45 minutes to clean and oil and it's good to go. Windex will most assuredly remove the salts left behind behind corrosive priming but I don't know how well it removes carbon and powder fouling. Hoppes will cut that junk to the quick, fast, and it's smell takes me back to the days of my youth.

January 16, 2013, 12:12 PM	#9
Erno86 Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2012 Location: Marriottsville, Maryland Posts: 1,739	For corrosive ammo...I like the Simple Green Solution that I buy at Home Depot ---- or a 1/3 mixture of --- Simple Green, hydrogen peroxide and rubbing alcohol; in a non-clear plastic spray bottle. When cleaning: use cotton flannel rod patches soaked with Simple Green {or the 1/3 solution} ---- till patches come out clean --- then use bronze core brushes soaked with copper remover {run thru bore six to ten times, repeat process...wait six minutes, then run non-soaked brush six to ten times --- 3 dry cotton flannel patches --- 3 patches soaked with Hoppes #9 --- 3 dry patches --- one oily patch; then one dry patch. Run cotton patches, only once thru the bore --- brushes --- back a forth. Last edited by Erno86; January 16, 2013 at 04:47 PM.

January 16, 2013, 08:06 PM	#11
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I always used black powder solvent then finished up with barnes or Montana extreme. Have never shot the Mosin, but have dealt with a lot of corrosive 8mm.

January 17, 2013, 03:04 AM	#13
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	Mike Irwin nailed it.. Plain ole H2O down the barrel and on the boltface and clean it the way you would normally clean a rifle. I used to disassemble my bolt and clean it but its not necessary. I was also told many years ago that the hoppe's was all one needed to avoid rust but that isnt true. Found that out the hard way. No need for windex, simple green, crud eliminator 1000, or comet. Water and your favorite cleaning product and you are GTG.

January 17, 2013, 07:29 AM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	Once again, I'll make the point that (one I make every time this discussion comes up), if there is oil or other lubricants in the bore of your gun, or on the bolt, etc., plain water may NOT be enough to remove all traces of corrosive fouling. That's why bore cleaners used by most militaries contained alkalies, soaps, etc.... to REMOVE any oil that might be hiding traces of corrosive priming. That's why it's a good idea to adopt the same cleaning process that served well militaries world wide for many decades. Adding a little bit of soap or ammonia or whatever to your cleaning solution isn't hard, its not going to hurt anything, and in fact, it may well stop PREVENTABLE damage to your gun. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 17, 2013, 07:59 AM	#15
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	If... Water by itself works just fine. But you guys go ahead and mix up some lame ass concoction if it makes you feel better. Who shoots a rifle lathered up with oil anyway? Kinda like the windex crap, not necessary. Why wouldnt water alone clean the corrosive salts out of the barrel including the corrosive salts trapped in minute puddles of oil? It will. You can use hot water if you want. Either way water will do its job and regular cleaning after the water will do its job. Last edited by Bamashooter; January 17, 2013 at 08:29 AM.

January 17, 2013, 10:52 AM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	OK, it's pretty obvious that you have absolutely no clue about the history of corrosive priming and the pervasive issues, including that cropped up in the 1920s. Investigation into those problems revealed the issues with corrosive priming, the cleaning regimes of the day, and the fact that in order to prevent rusting, a change in how cleaning was done AND a change in the bore cleaners was needed, which included adding either ammonia to the cleaning solution or, later, other types of surfecants. I guess, though, what you're saying, is that you're so much more "larned" then those dumb military hicks from days gone by. Obviously you have some sort of "new science" knowledge that tells you that water is an effective solvent for gun oils. You must have discovered some new and previously unknown type of water, so I'd suggest that you run out and patent it lickety split and market it as the newest cleaning solution. Either that or somehow the laws of chemistry are different where you are. IF water "worked fine," military and civilan organizations around the world wouldn't have spent years developing, fielding, and marketing specialized cleaning solutions to combat the known problems caused by corrosive priming residue. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 17, 2013, 03:05 PM	#17
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	I dont really care about the history of corrosive salts including that cropped up in the 1920's ???. I know for a fact if you rinse the chamber and barrel with water and clean with hoppe's you will remove the corrosive salts and not have to worry about rust. Water removes the salts and hoppe's takes care of the ''oils''. I never said water alone was the magical solution but water and good ole hoppes #9 seems to be. Could be the chlorine in the water aiding in the salt removal. Its been working for me and my three mosin's for over 10yrs. Dont know jack about chemistry, just what works on corrosive ammo in my rifles. Last edited by Bamashooter; January 17, 2013 at 03:12 PM.

January 17, 2013, 06:00 PM	#18
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Black powder solvent is by far the best. It takes care of oil and corrosive salts. It is also simple. I even store my rifles that shoot corrosive with bore butter in them. The water cleaning I used to do let me down and I lost a $480 barrel on a Ruger 1H Tropical.

January 17, 2013, 07:38 PM	#19
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	A squirt bottle of water works well. Pull bolt, point barrel down. Squirt watter through bore. Run a couple of dry patches through the barrel. If you feel like it repeat witht the water, and a few more dry patches. Follow with a couple of patches soaked with your choice of gun cleaning solovent. Patch out the solovent. Dampen a patch with oil. Run it through. Follow with a couple of dry pathces. Wipe the rest of the rifle, and the bolt down with an oil soaked patch. Then wipe with a clean dry patch. Replace the bolt. Done. Takes about 10 to 20 depeinding. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

January 19, 2013, 10:23 AM	#20
Heavy Metal 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2012 Posts: 247	I keep some h20 in a well cleaned out nasal spray bottle & keep that in my range box. I use it to douse the bore and run wet patches thru it & the bolt face, then clean w/ conventional cleaners, then oil. I use 5-20w synthetic motor oil as it has more "stick" to it than say Rem oil and it seems to have some cleaning power of its own. It is also substantially less expensive than commercial gun oils and a quart lasts for years. About every other range session or so I use Wipe Out foaming bore cleaner instead of Hoppes, etc and that really gets the crud out. I never thought about black powder solvent...that seems logical and when I run out of the Hoppes in my range box I will try that. __________________ The blood runs free, the rain turns red, give me the wine, you keep the bread.

January 19, 2013, 05:06 PM	#21
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	" The water cleaning I used to do let me down and I lost a $480 barrel on a Ruger 1H Tropical." You're not the first person I know who has had that happen... stored the gun with an oiled bore, fired some corrosive ammo, did a water flush followed by some oiled patches, only to come back some months later and find a sewer pipe where they left their rifle. Just curious, what were you shooting? Some old ICI or Kynoch .375? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 19, 2013, 10:43 PM	#22
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	It was some old .416 Rigby ammo we found in the vault of an 80 year old man I worked for. That was 15 years ago that he gave it to me. I got around to shooting it a couple years ago. It had the potential for being some old stuff. I assumed it was corrosive and cleaned accordingly, but did not know for sure what the ammo was. Obviously my cleaning regimine did not work. He probably got in in Africa, he used to go on Safari every year. I gave the brass away. I need to see if the person I gave it to still has it so I can figure out exactly what it was. The person I gave it to used it to feed his wildcat.