Barnes triple shock for deer??

[Savage99]

Show me an exit wound from a broadside hit on a deer where the X bullet did not hit heavy bone first!

[Brian Pfleuger]

I can't "show you" a picture but I can tell you what I've seen.

How about a 110gr 7mm Barnes TTXS, fired from a 15" Encore Pro Hunter handgun, with a muzzle velocity of 2,850 fps? Small, button buck at 40 yards. Shot hit high on his right side (I was 25 feet in the air) and exited low on his left side. Did not hit any bone heavier than a 6 month old bucks ribs. He was DRT. It took me a few minutes to find the ENTRANCE wound but the exit was obvious. It was larger than my thumb is wide, which is almost exactly 1". The wound was probably about 1 1/4" wide.

[wxl]

Barnes TSX is (was) my go to bullet for game in my 270s, 308s, 300WinMag, 300WSM, 416 Rigby, AR 6.8SPC, 7-08, 7 Rem mag, and 284 Win. Taken deer, hogs, coyotes, elk and Aussie buff. Almost all my whitetail bucks were 1 shot kills either dropped dead or less than 30 yards.

Guess I better look for a better bullet.

[skoal3]

Thanks for all the info, there is no doubt in my mind anymore that this bullet is more than capable of doing anything I would ever ask of it.

[myfriendis410]

The only issue would be if your rifle likes them. It may take some experimentation to find the right load (if you handload).

Another great bullet is the Nosler Accubond. They guarantee 70% weight retention and they have a good b.c. Not as good as the Barnes for weight retention as those typically are 99%, but not bad. After all; you have to feed your rifle what it wants to shoot.....

[schmellba99]

In larger calibers (say .243 on up), I have heard nothing but good things about the TSX performance.

However, my personal experience with them in .223 caliber tells me that they are not great projectiles for deer or larger sized game. Sure, they get the job done, but the performance was decidedly substandart for a premium projectile marketed towards hunters. Remember - this is in .223 projectiles only.

I still stand by my Ballistic Silvertips for deer and elk. Just can't seem to find anything that does better for me.

[Marco Califo]

in .223 caliber tells me that they are not great projectiles for deer or larger sized game. Sure, they get the job done, but the performance was decidedly substandart for a premium projectile marketed towards hunters. Remember - this is in .223 projectiles only.

Barnes makes 224 caliber bullets in a wide weight range of 36 to 70 grs.
I am curious as to which specific weight bullet your comment is directed at. Specifically, I have read excellent reports regarding the 70 grs. TSX on white tail deer ( http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby...mensionid=6291 )

[schmellba99]

The 70 grain pills. They did not expand all that well, especially compared to what their capabilities are in larger calibers.

They still got the job done, but I would not use them in the .22 caliber on anything larger than a coyote personally.

Oh, and thanks for the link. You just forced me to buy 1000 more projectiles!

[allaroundhunter]

I handloaded some 70 gr TSX for .223 for a good friend's young daughter who was going on a hog hunt and didn't like the recoil of anything else. He took her to the range and she was shooting lights out at 100 yards and then went on her hunt the next weekend.

They had a nice group of about 5 pigs at the feeder about 50 yards in front of them and my friend told her to shoot the big one (which he thought was about 125 lbs). She pulled the trigger and then all 5 started running and the big one didn't seem like it was hit. He looked at his daughter and said, "I think you missed him, but don't worry, they might come back." She looked at him confused and said, "Dad, he's dead right out by that tree!" Sure enough, she had shot the 'big' one. What my friend didn't see was a 230 lb boar about 40 yards to the right of the group. That little girl put that bullet through both lungs and heart of that pig and dropped him DRT. When they recovered the bullet it had 96% weight retention and had stopped about 3" short of exiting the animal.

I wish I still had the picture of that bullet (he sent it to me after digging it out), but I forgot to transfer it off of my other phone

Guess what bullets my friend hunts with now?

[Marco Califo]

Oh, and thanks for the link. You just forced me to buy 1000 more projectiles!

Schmellbag.: So that is WHY Midway is out of stock of those 70's!

[reynolds357]

Savage99, I do not have a picture of it, but I shot an ElK with my 7 Rum and an orig X. Bullet went between ribs on entry, and took out two ribs on exit. Exit wound was the size of a baseball. Wound cavity was progressively enlarging. The bullet was definitely expanding prior to hitting bone.

[allaroundhunter]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

S.: So that is WHY Midway is out of stock of those 70's!

...... No comment

[huntinaz]

A bullet that strikes an animals vitals and fragments will produce a larger wound and therefore the animal will die sooner.

The size of the wound channel matters not at all, when the wound channel is in the right place.

[skoal3]

My rifle likes the Barnes pretty well, actually better than the accubonds, in factory loads anyway. I wanted it to like the accubonds and it probably could with the right hand loads. I had the best groups with the hornady American whitetails which are interlock bullets if I'm not mistaken, 3 shot groups with all holes touching. I had a couple misfires with those though and have probably shot 40 to 50 round since without a problem, different ammo. Not sure if I should blame the gun or the rounds? Would hate for that to happen with an animal in the crosshairs though.

[schmellba99]

chmellbag.: So that is WHY Midway is out of stock of those 70's!

I didn't buy any 70's. Now I may plead the 5th on 55 gr Dogtown Hollow Points and some 62 gr Varmageddons....

[Doyle]

One more thing to consider is that one gun may love the TSX, another gun may hate them. My reloading buddy couldn't get one of his rifles to group worth a crap with any of weight TSX. On a whim, he tried T/TSX bullets and got superb groups. I think both perform the same way in game - just need to pick the one that groups in your rifle.

[ammo.crafter]

I load the triple shock in my 21" Contender in 7-30 Waters for wild boar.

It's one of the only bullets that delivered instant kill.

Try it, you'; like it.

[Paul B.]

What experience I have with the TSX bllts is quite thin at this point. I've taken two cow elk with them amd killed a lot of paper with others.

The .257 Robt. with 100 gr. TSX is giving at this point adequate groups. I'm now playing with seating depth and have gotten some iprovment in groups. Groups have gotten down to 1,25" from 1.5 to 1.75". I'm at the max load in the latest Barnes manual. More powder just open up groups.

The 7x57 Mauser. Tried the 120 and 140 gr. TSX in this rifle. The 120 gr. seems to show some promiise so I'll continue playing with that weight over the 140 gr. bullet. Why? It"s said that velocity is the TSX/TTSX bullet's best friend. I believe there is some substance to that claim so I'll go with the lighter bullet for now.

The .280 Remington shows some promise with the 140 gr. TSX but scatters shots a bit with the 120 gr. TSX. THis rifle is very accurate with the 160 gr. Speer Hot Core and Grand Slam bullets. Just starting load work up for this rifle so thing may change drastically at any time down the road.

The .35 Whelen is a real sweetheart with the 225 gr. Barnes TSX. During the very first work up I reached a top speed of 2710 FPS with a stiff load of Re15 and the first bullet seating OAL. Ater sighting in, the first groups with the max load for that rifle, a custom with tight chamber ran right at .50". The largest group shot that day was .75". I'd have to check my records but IIRC, the largest group shot with that rifle since I bought it has been one inch.
I've taken two cow elk with it, the first in 2010. The bullet hit just behind the short ribs as she took off quartering slightly to the left. It exited between the neck and right shoulder. At impact, the elk dropped as if someone had jerked all four legs out from under her. That has to be the fastest kill I've ever made on any game animal in 60+ years hunting.
This last january I did another cow elk hunt with a mixed esult, not due to any bullet problem. Again my pet .35 Whelen and the 225 gr. TSX were the stars of that hunt. The elk was standing in an opening broadside, I had a great rest, almost as good aas a bench. At the shot she went down for the count and stayed down. Range was estimated to be 325 to 350 yards by the guide and my hunting partner so I aimed for s good solid lung shot. I later found the bullet had broken the elk's neck. I know I called my shot as a chest hit so when I got home after a couple days rest, I took the rifle to the range alsog with a spare scope. The bullets were hitting all over the place with about a 6" group. I swithced scopes and all was well with the rifle. When the scope came back from Leupold a few weeks later, the invoice stated tat the just about replaced the all the guts of that scope.
Seems like that rifle and load combo are also a very lucky set up. I'll be doing another cow elk hunt next January and you know what rifle/load combo I'll be taking.
Paul B.

[schmellba99]

Also with the TSX, you need to look more at bullet profile versus weight for your barrel twist. In .223, the 52/53 grain projectiles actually need a little faster twist rate than the 55 grain projectiles due to the ogive shape and longer bullet profile.

I'm sure that there are other brands similar, but that is the only one I"m aware of that can have significantly different geometry over the weight range of the caliber.

[Unclenick]

Schmelba99,

See the last paragraph of my post #14. It's the lower density of any solid making it longer than a comparable jacket and core bullet that's the issue.

[Mike / Tx]

Most of my experience with the newer TSX or TTSX is with the 130gr .308's. I loaded them in reduced loads for my oldest grandson to use from my little Ruger Compact. We were putting hogs on the ground with every shot he made.

I have had no issues what so ever with them, and can't really say I have much issues with the original X's either. Everything we shot them into went down. We did find a few of the petals which had flung off during the transit from one side or end to the other.

If they weren't so pricey, I would probably look harder at them, but since we are mostly only shooting hogs and white tails the standard c&c seem to work just fine for 1/4 or so of the price per hundred. It just gives us more bang for the buck is all. If I HAD to use them as in your case, I wouldn't hesitate.

[reynolds357]

Unclenick, The length of the Barnes should not be a problem. I began using the X as soon as it hit the market. I always had the understanding that you use an equivalent size, not equivalent weight, Barnes X for the task you intend. A 180 gr x is the same size as a 220 cu over lead spitzer. Thats not a problem because the 180x will stand up to more than the 220 cu. over lead bullet will.

[Unclenick]

Reynolds357,

It's actually more complicated. How much mass the nose of a bullet has and how far forward of the center of mass it is affects the centrifugal effect of coning motion on the bullet nose as precession tries to keep it pointed into the air stream. If the centrifugal effect gets too great (too much mass too far from the center of mass) the coning angle gets so big that drag overwhelms precession and pulls the bullet sideways into the wind (tumbling). If the nose mass distance from the center of mass is kept small, precession corrects the nose into the wind more easily, meaning the bullet is more stable. This is why hollow point match bullets tend to be more stable than same-shape FMJ's; their mass is further to the rear and not contributing to centrifugal effects due to coning rotation. Also, the length of a bullet nose forward of it's center of gravity is the lever arm by which drag constantly tries to pull the bullet off point. Both factors make projectile length the most significant term in its stability. That is, length is the number you change least to see the most effect on gyroscopic stability of a bullet.

Mass matters less to stability than length but it's still a significant factor. That is, it requires a bigger percent change in projectile mass to have the same affect on gyroscopic stability factor as a smaller percent change in its length does. But it's still the case that if you made two identically shaped bullets, one from a less dense material and one from a more dense material, then fired them at the same velocity using the same rifling pitch and under the same atmospheric conditions, the more dense bullet will have a higher stability factor. That is because it has more mass so it will will have greater gyroscopic stiffness making it harder to turn sideways to tumble.

In addition to the above, as velocity increases drag grows. If you increase muzzle velocity using the same rifling pitch, the number of rpms at which the bullet spins also increases. Both gyroscopic stiffness and drag increase as the square of their respective rotational (angular) and linear velocities below the speed of sound, but above the speed of sound the linear drag jumps by a multiplying factor (the drag coefficient) times that square relationship. Because the drag coefficient then is dropping again as the bullet Mach number increases, but gyroscopic stiffness keeps up the angular velocity square relationship, firing a bullet at a higher Mach numbers lets gyroscopic stiffness gain on drag, increasing stability. Furthermore, because surface drag due to fluid friction from spin is much lower than linear drag due to the projectile's forward motion through air, a bullet loses linear velocity much faster than it loses rotational velocity. This means that as the bullet slows going down range, the spin becomes relatively faster and the stability factor increases. This improvement often reverses in the transonic range, but as long as the bullet still above about 1400 fps, the increased stability stays with it.

Velocity has less effect on stability than the other two factors. But the bottom line is that shooting a bullet faster can reduce the required rifling pitch a little, which can take some bullets from unsuitable to suitable in a particular gun.

Take a look at the gyroscopic stability factor estimator at the JBM site. You can put in a typical bullet you shoot, get the stability factor, then change the muzzle velocity, the mass, and the length, all independently to see how much effect each has on the stability. (Note that with stability factor, 1.0 is the break-even point where the bullet has no more tendency to settle out coning motion that it does to open coning motion up until the bullet tumbles. Below 1.0 the bullet is unstable. Above 1.0 it has better stability. 1.4 to 1.7 is the range of the most common recommendations for best match accuracy.