ATF Project Gunrunner - Page 45

**Aguila Blanca** · September 23, 2011, 07:26 AM

I could find it in my heart to not like Mr. Andre Howard very much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andre Howard

Unfortunately, Mr. Dodson with his allegation is a pain in the a--. Now, my understanding now is it will be impossible now that he will be able to substantiate anything directly because that evidence is gone. I want you to know that. It don't exist. Not that one. You understand me?

This is from the transcript of his own recording with Hope McAllister. What I'm seeing in that statement is that he tampered with evidence. Does that mean he destroyed the 4473 that belonged to the gun (or guns) that killed the BP agent? Or maybe he destroyed the 4473 that went with the third "mystery" weapon that was not mentioned by the gummint?

This whole thing just stinks worse and worse the more it's exposed to light and air.

Bartholomew Roberts · September 23, 2011, 09:24 AM

Howard didn't sell the third weapon because as the tapes note that weapon is out of Dallas. So he can't have tampered with any evidence relating to it.

Of course it does raise the question that if an FBI informant is buying these weapons with taxpayer money and Phoenix ATF is the sole agency to let guns walk; why is there a rifle from Dallas in the mix? Why would this cartel be buying weapons from Dallas when they are getting such wonderful cooperation from Phoenix?

maestro pistolero · September 23, 2011, 11:47 AM

Andre Howard (Lone Wolf Trading) is a strange man. He acts like he's got a vested interest in protecting the agents involved, and makes all these leading questions couched as outrage at the investigators and informants.

I don't have clarity on his motivation yet, but it seems like he knows he is being recorded and he's trying to entrap the agent or at least seem like he is 'on the team'. His animosity toward Grassley, etc, is atypical of a gun dealer's politics. Weird.

jimpeel · September 23, 2011, 11:57 AM

It sounds like the guy was in CYA mode and was trying to glean as much info from the lower echelon as he could. As to protecting them, he likely realized that they were just the grunts who were acting on directives from above their pay grade. Of course, that excuse didn't work at Nuremberg; and it likely won't work in this instance either.

hogdogs · September 23, 2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

I don't have clarity on his motivation yet, but it seems like he knows he is being recorded

OF COURSE HE KNEW HE WAS BEING RECORDED!!! He made the recording!

He said what he had to say to not only glean information but to get the person he was recording to make grievous mistakes. He wanted, also, to get the person to admit that they were encouraging the sales of the guns to the criminals that would later get them in the hands of murderous lifeforms!

But those emails Al Norris posted links to are enuff to prove much!

Brent

maestro pistolero · September 23, 2011, 05:02 PM

Interesting, then, that is was the government that leaked the recording.

hogdogs · September 23, 2011, 05:14 PM

maestro, I ain't sure who leaked it or who all had a copy... But I think he was just making sure that the guns he sold that were found at Agent Terry's murder scene would be linked to the government operation and that he hadn't intentionally violated the law nor sold them on his own accord.

Brent

alloy · September 23, 2011, 05:18 PM

Sure does keep everyone from gettin' caught in a big ol' fib.

alloy · September 23, 2011, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Now, my understanding now is it will be impossible now that he will be able to substantiate anything directly because that evidence is gone. I want you to know that. It don't exist. Not that one. You understand me?

To me it reads like a pointed attempt to get an agent to admit on tape that he had asked for whatever evidence to disappear. Not asking the shop owner to explain, sort of sums it up for me.

Al Norris · September 23, 2011, 09:53 PM

At 29 minutes, this interview with Katie Pavlich (Townhall.com) and Mathew Boyle (Daily Caller) by NRA's Cam Edwards is much longer than most.

While Katie Pavlich will neither confirm nor deny that she has actually seen it, she reports that there is a circulating white paper at the DOJ that calls for the firing of over 400 ATF personnel and distributing their authority to other agencies within the DOJ.

The whole video is good but, This Is A Bombshell, folks!

If true, this is the Obama administration, once again, going around the Congress to get done whatever it wants when the Congress won't play ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec667...&feature=feedu

C0untZer0 · September 23, 2011, 10:41 PM

The BATFE has a long history of very public failures.

Jay Donyns has been appearing on shows with Vince Cefalu.

What is Jay's involvement is in this if any it was reported on one interview that he was a whistleblower in this case.

But anyway, it just reminded me of another controversial failure of the ATF when they tried to do an undercover operation into the Hell's Angels and build a RICO case.

After a year-long investigation and millions of dollars, in the end they had zero cases go to trial, and 8 cases plea-bargained down almost to nothing and those for drug possession.

I've said before that their law enforcement duties could be done more effectively and more efficiently by the FBI and this is just the latest proof.

The entire agency should be disbanded.

alan · September 23, 2011, 11:02 PM

In Post # 1094, csmsss wrote:

Al, I think the larger question is...why is Issa being left on an island with all of this? Why has none of the House or Senate Republican leadership so much as taken a sniff at any of it? They seem thoroughly frightened of taking on the WH over this.
-----------------------

His first question is something that one might find "interesting", to say the very least. BTW, the obvious and possibly incorrect answer is that they are "two-faced double-talkers"

By the way, respecting the rest of The Congress (House and Senate), if one were to ask "Are they any better“, I submit that the answer would be not really, looking at the following:

1. The ATF, re firearms enforcement or what passes therefore has a truly terrible record, one that likely would not pass muster in a Banana Republic Police State, this under administrations both Democratic as well as Republican.

2. Has The Congress ever seriously undertaken strongly checking the antics of the "ATF", or whatever it might have been called at some particular point in time? I submit that the answer is no.

3. So re Republican leadership being afraid to take on the WH, possibly that is the case, however I suspect that the following plays a large role in their inaction. They are as corrupt and rotten as is the management of the AFT.

C0untZer0 · September 23, 2011, 11:05 PM

Katie Pavlich says that there is a White Paper circulating in Washington that discusses abolishing ATF firing 450 agents.

Either Katie didn't explain it fully or she doesn't understand it herself but firing 450 agents doesn't abolish BATFE which has approximately 4500 employees.

zxcvbob · September 23, 2011, 11:11 PM

A smoke screen in which to fire all the whistleblowers and suspected potential whistleblowers

**Aguila Blanca** · September 24, 2011, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

A smoke screen in which to fire all the whistleblowers and suspected potential whistleblowers

And transfer the people they want to protect into other agencies, whose acronyms don't include BATFE, so they can quietly slide under the radar and continue their nefarious activities under the relative anonymity of a different agency with a different acronym.

C0untZer0 · September 24, 2011, 10:42 AM

The more I listen to that video the more I just bemoan the total loss of objective unbiased reporting in this country.

It's like side A has their phalanx of biased reporters spinning the story their way and side B has their phalanx of reporters spinning the story their way...

Its so obvious to me that both Katie Pavlich and Matthew Boyle are very anti-Obama.

I don't know - maybe it's just a new honesty, there have been so so many reporters and anchors in the MSM over the last few decades that pretended to be neutral, objective and unbiased while they were subtly giving stories a certain tone to them...

I guess I fear that instead of being seen as legitimate reporters some of the people investigating this story are just going to be seen as hatchet men (and women), with a vendetta against the Obama administration and they lose legitimacy because of it.

maestro pistolero · September 24, 2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Its so obvious to me that both Katie Pavlich and Matthew Boyle are very anti-Obama.

Was the fact that they were on an NRA radio talk show the first clue? As an openly political, gun rights organization, that show at least isn't pretending to be unbiased. It's the 'fair and balanced' folks we have to watch and I don't just mean Fox; they are no further 'right' than the MSN, CNN etc. are left, IMO.

gc70 · September 24, 2011, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C0untZer0

I guess I fear that instead of being seen as legitimate reporters some of the people investigating this story are just going to be seen as hatchet men (and women), with a vendetta against the Obama administration and they lose legitimacy because of it.

If an agenda destroys legitimacy, journalists have lacked legitimacy for a long, long time - it has only become blatant in the last few decades.

**Aguila Blanca** · September 24, 2011, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gc70

If an agenda destroys legitimacy, journalists have lacked legitimacy for a long, long time - it has only become blatant in the last few decades.

True.

It has been a couple of decades (or more) since the time when editorializing was limited to the editorial page and the rest of the news was presented as "news" -- i.e. "Who, what, where, when, why and how."

Webleymkv · September 24, 2011, 03:04 PM

Quote:

It has been a couple of decades (or more) since the time when editorializing was limited to the editorial page and the rest of the news was presented as "news" -- i.e. "Who, what, where, when, why and how."

I'm not so sure that such a time ever really existed in the first place. The media manipulating public opinion to fit their own agenda has a history dating back to Hearst and Pulitzer.

alloy · September 24, 2011, 04:31 PM

It's sort of recent however that the internet has overthrown the old media's monopoly on daily information. Which probobly accounts for some of the more outlandish behavior lately. They seem to be testing thier own relevance, and failing.
By omission....with this particular story. But it's still out there and getting louder.

csmsss · September 24, 2011, 05:15 PM

Quote:

I'm not so sure that such a time ever really existed in the first place. The media manipulating public opinion to fit their own agenda has a history dating back to Hearst and Pulitzer.

It goes back a lot further than that. You should see some of the newspapers from the 19th century.

Crosshair · September 24, 2011, 06:56 PM

Quote:

It goes back a lot further than that. You should see some of the newspapers from the 19th century.

Yup

Quote:

The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them - Thomas Jefferson

armoredman · September 24, 2011, 09:28 PM

Research the term "Yellow Journalism". Came out a long time ago.

I am still wondering how high/big/foul this thing will be when/if it gets blown all the way open.

Mr. James · September 24, 2011, 11:19 PM

If I may be permitted to say this: if, after this much public airing, no serious changes come, then the republic is done. Period. Full Stop. End of Story.

Not that I trust our government, for which I work, farther than I can throw it. Which is to say, not at all.

September 23, 2011, 11:57 AM	#1104
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,530	It sounds like the guy was in CYA mode and was trying to glean as much info from the lower echelon as he could. As to protecting them, he likely realized that they were just the grunts who were acting on directives from above their pay grade. Of course, that excuse didn't work at Nuremberg; and it likely won't work in this instance either. __________________ Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

September 23, 2011, 05:02 PM	#1106
maestro pistolero Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Posts: 2,153	Interesting, then, that is was the government that leaked the recording. Last edited by maestro pistolero; September 24, 2011 at 12:17 AM.

September 23, 2011, 11:11 PM	#1114
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	A smoke screen in which to fire all the whistleblowers and suspected potential whistleblowers __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

September 24, 2011, 11:19 PM	#1125
Mr. James Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: The Old Dominion Posts: 1,521	If I may be permitted to say this: if, after this much public airing, no serious changes come, then the republic is done. Period. Full Stop. End of Story. Not that I trust our government, for which I work, farther than I can throw it. Which is to say, not at all. __________________ "...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li "When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat

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September 23, 2011, 09:24 AM	#1102
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Howard didn't sell the third weapon because as the tapes note that weapon is out of Dallas. So he can't have tampered with any evidence relating to it. Of course it does raise the question that if an FBI informant is buying these weapons with taxpayer money and Phoenix ATF is the sole agency to let guns walk; why is there a rifle from Dallas in the mix? Why would this cartel be buying weapons from Dallas when they are getting such wonderful cooperation from Phoenix?

September 23, 2011, 11:47 AM	#1103
maestro pistolero Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Posts: 2,153	Andre Howard (Lone Wolf Trading) is a strange man. He acts like he's got a vested interest in protecting the agents involved, and makes all these leading questions couched as outrage at the investigators and informants. I don't have clarity on his motivation yet, but it seems like he knows he is being recorded and he's trying to entrap the agent or at least seem like he is 'on the team'. His animosity toward Grassley, etc, is atypical of a gun dealer's politics. Weird.

September 23, 2011, 05:14 PM	#1107
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	maestro, I ain't sure who leaked it or who all had a copy... But I think he was just making sure that the guns he sold that were found at Agent Terry's murder scene would be linked to the government operation and that he hadn't intentionally violated the law nor sold them on his own accord. Brent

September 23, 2011, 09:53 PM	#1110
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	At 29 minutes, this interview with Katie Pavlich (Townhall.com) and Mathew Boyle (Daily Caller) by NRA's Cam Edwards is much longer than most. While Katie Pavlich will neither confirm nor deny that she has actually seen it, she reports that there is a circulating white paper at the DOJ that calls for the firing of over 400 ATF personnel and distributing their authority to other agencies within the DOJ. The whole video is good but, This Is A Bombshell, folks! If true, this is the Obama administration, once again, going around the Congress to get done whatever it wants when the Congress won't play ball. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec667...&feature=feedu

September 23, 2011, 10:41 PM	#1111
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	The BATFE has a long history of very public failures. Jay Donyns has been appearing on shows with Vince Cefalu. What is Jay's involvement is in this if any it was reported on one interview that he was a whistleblower in this case. But anyway, it just reminded me of another controversial failure of the ATF when they tried to do an undercover operation into the Hell's Angels and build a RICO case. After a year-long investigation and millions of dollars, in the end they had zero cases go to trial, and 8 cases plea-bargained down almost to nothing and those for drug possession. I've said before that their law enforcement duties could be done more effectively and more efficiently by the FBI and this is just the latest proof. The entire agency should be disbanded.

September 23, 2011, 11:02 PM	#1112
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	In Post # 1094, csmsss wrote: Al, I think the larger question is...why is Issa being left on an island with all of this? Why has none of the House or Senate Republican leadership so much as taken a sniff at any of it? They seem thoroughly frightened of taking on the WH over this. ----------------------- His first question is something that one might find "interesting", to say the very least. BTW, the obvious and possibly incorrect answer is that they are "two-faced double-talkers" By the way, respecting the rest of The Congress (House and Senate), if one were to ask "Are they any better“, I submit that the answer would be not really, looking at the following: 1. The ATF, re firearms enforcement or what passes therefore has a truly terrible record, one that likely would not pass muster in a Banana Republic Police State, this under administrations both Democratic as well as Republican. 2. Has The Congress ever seriously undertaken strongly checking the antics of the "ATF", or whatever it might have been called at some particular point in time? I submit that the answer is no. 3. So re Republican leadership being afraid to take on the WH, possibly that is the case, however I suspect that the following plays a large role in their inaction. They are as corrupt and rotten as is the management of the AFT.

September 23, 2011, 11:05 PM	#1113
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Katie Pavlich says that there is a White Paper circulating in Washington that discusses abolishing ATF firing 450 agents. Either Katie didn't explain it fully or she doesn't understand it herself but firing 450 agents doesn't abolish BATFE which has approximately 4500 employees.

September 24, 2011, 10:42 AM	#1116
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	The more I listen to that video the more I just bemoan the total loss of objective unbiased reporting in this country. It's like side A has their phalanx of biased reporters spinning the story their way and side B has their phalanx of reporters spinning the story their way... Its so obvious to me that both Katie Pavlich and Matthew Boyle are very anti-Obama. I don't know - maybe it's just a new honesty, there have been so so many reporters and anchors in the MSM over the last few decades that pretended to be neutral, objective and unbiased while they were subtly giving stories a certain tone to them... I guess I fear that instead of being seen as legitimate reporters some of the people investigating this story are just going to be seen as hatchet men (and women), with a vendetta against the Obama administration and they lose legitimacy because of it.

September 24, 2011, 09:28 PM	#1124
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	Research the term "Yellow Journalism". Came out a long time ago. I am still wondering how high/big/foul this thing will be when/if it gets blown all the way open.