CAR and IPD systems

evan1293 · May 17, 2007, 04:19 PM

I dont want to start any kind of flame war here I just wanted to give my humble opinion on the CAR system of shooting. For those of you who may not know, CAR (center axis relock) is a system formed by Paul Castle www.sabretactical.com. I recently had the opportunity to take an IPD course which is the civillain version of CAR training. I took this course with master CAR instructer Gary Ballenger and the course was held in Bridgeport, CT. Id been curious about this system for some time and I was anxiously awaiting some place to receive instruction on this system.

I have to say that I recommend an IPD course to anyone who may be curious about the CAR system. Two main issues led me to pursuing this system: one is the neglect of other systems/stances to address the issue of weapon retention, which seeing as how most engagements occur within 7yards, I feel this needs to be a major concern. The other main issue I have is that in CQC environments such as in the home or seated in a vehicle, it is often times impossible to effectively engage a threat using an iso/weaver stance. CAR enables the shooter to engage targets at their 7 and 5 o'clock positions which is needed for sitting in a vehicle.

I took this course with some brand new shooters and by the end of the session EVERYONE was able to shoot 5-8 rounds / sec in a fist sized group. The system works in harmony with your body and seems almost intuitive which is why I think even the new shooters saw such great results. The weapon control and strength of this system is unmatched in my opinion. Personally I love the modern iso and it is my preferred stance when I can use it. I do realize, however, its limitations and I find that CAR exceedes where iso/weaver fails and in some ways visa-versa. CAR really isn't a range technique, its a fighting technique. It really takes into account how the body reacts under stress and works in harmony with the body and not against it. To me it seems to be a well thought out and effective system and is a great system to add to "your toolbox."

bdcbbq · May 17, 2007, 07:55 PM

Remove the left parenthesis to get to the site.

Groundhog · May 18, 2007, 10:44 AM

So what's he doing there? Just sort of sucking in his off hand elbow to his chest area?

evan1293 · May 18, 2007, 01:25 PM

Theres a bit to the system. In the extended postion the gun is canted slightly inward and the gun is fired right hand, left eye. The reverse is true for firing with the other hand. The system brings the front sight into one's reading distance. As we are all told, focus on the front sight....pick up a book or look at your watch and STOP. The distance the book or watch is from your eyes is where your eyes focus best. This is where the front sight should be in CAR. Aiming with the left eye in CAR makes the nose partially block the right eye from interfering with the sight/ target focus. Although the right eye is still being used and is left open, there is no confusion with the front sight as can happen with other stances. Read some of the articles on the page and they'll do a better job of explaning the system than I can. All I can say is that this system controls the recoil like no other stance I've seen and allows the shooter to fire with extreame speed and accuracy while maintaining a strong fighting / weapon retention position.

Dwight55 · May 20, 2007, 08:36 PM

I browsed around on the link you gave, . . . I would certainly like to at least see FTF that system in process.

My basic position is the old weaver, . . . and it just kinda comes naturally, . . . but does not really address weapon retention and follow up as this system may offer.

Thanks for the info, . . . just sorta out of my reach at least for the time being.

May God bless,
Dwight

vox rationis · May 20, 2007, 11:41 PM

Can you please further clarify what you are looking at in the extended position, is it the threat with the front sight hovering in your field of vision, or are you focusing on the front sight?
Thanks

evan1293 · May 21, 2007, 11:57 AM

One of the things that I've found with this system is unmatched weapon retention. Its a very naturally strong position. If a child has a candy bar and you try to take it from them, they will instictively pin the candy bar into them in a position very similar to the CAR high position.

The extended position puts the front sight right into your focal point between you and the target. With both eyes open your focus should be on the target. With the front sight held at your focal point..you will still see the front sight as much as you need to for shooting from CQ distances (under 7yrds). When you go body to head...your focus should still be on the target but you will see the front sight without really working to focus on it. With this system the front sight stays in line between your eye and the target. Subsequent shots will be right in the area where they need to be. This is why even new shooters can fire 4-6 shots / sec into fist sized groups using this system.

One other thing that I like about CAR is that should the gun go down or jam...the shooter can deliver powerfull pistol punches / elbows from this position. CAR is real good in CQC but can be used for distance as well. On the sabre website, read the article on the iso/ weaver stance vs the CAR system and the distance stance is shown. Its really a complete system for any situation. for those of you that already shoot a weaver...its not to far off from what your used to.

vox rationis · May 21, 2007, 01:07 PM

Evan thanks for the explanation. Another question though: what grip on the weapon do you specifically use in the extended position, especially with regards to the weak hand? Is it pretty much a weaver grip, or are there specific changes? Also, can you please describe the process starting from the draw; what I want to know is, do you draw and directly go into that high chest retention, and only then, shoot? What if the target is say at 10 meters (30 ft. or so) do you still first shoot from the retention position to put quick rounds on target, or do you immediately go into the extended position?

evan1293 · May 21, 2007, 01:56 PM

Son, Ill do my best to describe the grip for you...let me know if its still not clear and I'll try to do it a little better...here it goes: Take your right hand and make a fist and punch it into the palm of your left hand at the center of your chest. The thumb of your left hand should be facing up. Instead of folding your right hand thumb down tight into your fist of fingers, let it point streight out parrellel with the ground making contact with your left hand thumb at its joint with the palm of your left hand. This is basically the arrangment for the high position although you may have to adjust it somewhat for your gun / hand size. Take that grip and while keeping the elbow still, swing your left hand up in front of your left eye with your hands still in contact. You want to try not to move your left elbow at all just swing the forearm. Your right elbow will have to lift. With the gun in your hands, the left thumb should be basically facing up with full contact with the slide and frame (dont worry it wont jam your gun..promise

the right thumb is making contact with the left one at the same point that it was before. Essentially your making a V with your left thumb and resting the gun in it. CAR is an ambidextrous system so you would reverse everything I told your for shooting from the other side.

Your shooting hand should have its wrist and forearm directly behind the gun. This is what really controls the recoil. Also, neither of your wrists should have any kinks in them.. they should be streight and comfortable..if they're bent, your doing it wrong. Use the tip of your finger on the trigger and operate the trigger to the reset and you'll be rocking. The glock in my opinion is the best gun for this system.

The high position is never the prefered shooting position. Its only used at contact distance and when the extended position is imposible for some reason. The extended position is the shooting position. The combat high is used for scanning....shots can be fired from this position as well as the high position if nessesary. Also this system can be operated with one hand in case you need you open a door, operated a flash light or talk on the phone.

on the draw, Im coming streight out of the holster, meeting my hands at my center (just like I would for an iso draw) and continue the movement to the E.P. It should be one smooth motion from the holster to the EP.

In the high position there should be an equal distance from the front sight to my chest as there is rear sight to my chest. My hands are tight into my body and the gun is parrellel to the ground. I can easily make body to head shots by leaning back slightly. Move your back not the gun.

Hope this all helps. This is sytem works great but it takes about 1000 rounds to get used to because having the blast so close to your body and the gun so closed to your face is a little uncomfortable at first. After a bit of time it wont be bad and you'll be flying in no time.

On the sabre website go to IPD systems and read the review of the 1st course. I actually took the 2nd one offered and it was excellent. In one of the posts it will say (IPD in action) and it will bring you to gary bellinger's webpage. Check out the videos of CAR in action on his page.

Groundhog · May 21, 2007, 02:43 PM

I have watched a bunch of those videos now and it looks like when people go to the sighted position, their elbows tend to come away from the body some. Is that how it's supposed to be or is it just what is happening to them?

evan1293 · May 21, 2007, 03:18 PM

The elbow of the shooting hand will move...thats fine. The support elbow shouldn't need to move though....if it does, only minimally. Its better to keep it still and pivot the arm up so that you can use the elbow as an index for bringing the gun to the same place every time.

evan1293 · May 21, 2007, 03:19 PM

one other thing...in the high position the elbows are not sucked in...they're relaxed down.

Groundhog · May 21, 2007, 03:31 PM

Quote:

On the sabre website go to IPD systems and read the review of the 1st course. I actually took the 2nd one offered and it was excellent. In one of the posts it will say (IPD in action) and it will bring you to gary bellinger's webpage. Check out the videos of CAR in action on his page.

If you look at the videos on this page that you referred us to, you'll see several guys that as they pivot up to the sighted position the left elbow tends to come away from the body maybe 4 inches or so. I was just trying to determine if that was acceptable or if they were supposed to be keeping it in contact with their body.

evan1293 · May 21, 2007, 04:01 PM

Its not a big deal that they're doing this...its just slower and less consistent. Its better to try to keep it stationary.

vox rationis · May 22, 2007, 02:40 PM

Evan thanks for the detailed descriptions. My problem is that the weak (left) hand thumb, while sticking straight up as you suggest hits the left side of the slide (I have long thumbs). What gives me a stronger grip is if I have the left thumb tucked underneath the right thumb (pointing to the 3'oclock, with the right thumb pointing 9'oclock). I'm not sure though if this lends itself well for the extended position.

I hope I'm not boring everyone with this, but I want to try this technique out to see if I likes it

By the way I think I'll have to buy myself an airsoft to practice at home cause I find my regular range more and more restrictive..can't draw and shoot, can't shoot at multiple targets, can't shoot fast, etc etc..and I obviously can't try this CAR/IDP stuff at the range

evan1293 · May 22, 2007, 02:55 PM

I think that no matter your hand/thumb size, your thumb will contact the slide somewhat. Basically you want to have the left side of the gun pressed against the left thumb and the underside of the trigger guard tight into the web of your left hand. The thumb and web is a reference point for the proper grip in this system. Im not the authority on how this system is supposed to be done but Im just telling you how it was taught to me. My thumb contacts the slide but does not affect the functioning of my firearm. Try it the way you suggested and see if it works for you.

The problem with CAR is like you mentioned its difficult to find areas that will allow you to practice it. It was never intended to be a range application but a fighting system. Its designed to work in harmony with your body's natural responses during high stress situations. Usually while practicing this system, targets are only about 6-20' away and your shooting FAST! Ranges often wont allow such close distances and rapid fire shooting. One thing that is nice about practicing CAR is that the system done properly negates a lot of the effects of recoil. CAR is not much more difficult shooting a +p.45 than it is shooting a 115gr 9mm. Because of this, you can get some good practice in with a .22 or even a pellet gun and it will still be somewhat helpful for the real thing. The difficult part to master with this system is working the trigger reset of your firearm. If you are able to shoot something in practice with the same or very similar trigger to your carry gun, then your practice time will be much more benificial.

evan1293 · May 22, 2007, 03:02 PM

One other thing...the grip I mentioned is not critical in the high position. The grip you mentioned is just about the one I use in the HP. I make sure that while using that grip, my hands are in contact with my chest (actually in the pocket in the center of my chest) , the front sight and rear sight are equally equally distanced to my chest and my arms are down and everything is relaxed (elbows arms ect). When I swing up to the extended position, I form the grip I mentioned in the previous post.

hope this helps. I was a little unclear about the grip being really only for the extended postion. Remember, the EP is the prefered shooting position, the high is only for emergency shots and max retention at contact distance. As long as your thumbs dont interfere with the proper function of your weapon, it doesn't matter where you place them in the high position.

Groundhog · May 22, 2007, 03:42 PM

I definitely want to try this next time I go to the range. I'm lucky, I have a membership at a private one. I'll let you know how it goes.

evan1293 · May 22, 2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

I definitely want to try this next time I go to the range. I'm lucky, I have a membership at a private one. I'll let you know how it goes.

Great...Id love you hear how you like it. Give it some time and a good amount of rounds for you to settle into it. Once you put some practice in with it, an iso will feel like your asking the BG to please take your gun from you. I love the mod iso but its just not practical in CQ and at close distances.

You'll need at least 500 rounds to practice with this system and at least 5 mags if you have them. You'll fly through ammo but its a lot of fun. Once you start to get comfortable with the basics try doing some 2 body 2 head, 4 body 4 head drills. Another drill I do is start from the holster at 3'. Go to the high position and fire 4 shots COM, take a step back and go to the extended and fire 4 head. You can mix things up a bit and have a good training session with this system.

May 17, 2007, 04:19 PM	#1
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	CAR and IPD systems I dont want to start any kind of flame war here I just wanted to give my humble opinion on the CAR system of shooting. For those of you who may not know, CAR (center axis relock) is a system formed by Paul Castle www.sabretactical.com. I recently had the opportunity to take an IPD course which is the civillain version of CAR training. I took this course with master CAR instructer Gary Ballenger and the course was held in Bridgeport, CT. Id been curious about this system for some time and I was anxiously awaiting some place to receive instruction on this system. I have to say that I recommend an IPD course to anyone who may be curious about the CAR system. Two main issues led me to pursuing this system: one is the neglect of other systems/stances to address the issue of weapon retention, which seeing as how most engagements occur within 7yards, I feel this needs to be a major concern. The other main issue I have is that in CQC environments such as in the home or seated in a vehicle, it is often times impossible to effectively engage a threat using an iso/weaver stance. CAR enables the shooter to engage targets at their 7 and 5 o'clock positions which is needed for sitting in a vehicle. I took this course with some brand new shooters and by the end of the session EVERYONE was able to shoot 5-8 rounds / sec in a fist sized group. The system works in harmony with your body and seems almost intuitive which is why I think even the new shooters saw such great results. The weapon control and strength of this system is unmatched in my opinion. Personally I love the modern iso and it is my preferred stance when I can use it. I do realize, however, its limitations and I find that CAR exceedes where iso/weaver fails and in some ways visa-versa. CAR really isn't a range technique, its a fighting technique. It really takes into account how the body reacts under stress and works in harmony with the body and not against it. To me it seems to be a well thought out and effective system and is a great system to add to "your toolbox." Last edited by evan1293; May 17, 2007 at 08:12 PM.

May 18, 2007, 10:44 AM	#3
Groundhog Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 406	So what's he doing there? Just sort of sucking in his off hand elbow to his chest area? __________________ Greg Miller "Remember, a valid point never overrules a family tradition." - Me

May 20, 2007, 08:36 PM	#5
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	I browsed around on the link you gave, . . . I would certainly like to at least see FTF that system in process. My basic position is the old weaver, . . . and it just kinda comes naturally, . . . but does not really address weapon retention and follow up as this system may offer. Thanks for the info, . . . just sorta out of my reach at least for the time being. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

May 21, 2007, 02:43 PM	#10
Groundhog Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 406	I have watched a bunch of those videos now and it looks like when people go to the sighted position, their elbows tend to come away from the body some. Is that how it's supposed to be or is it just what is happening to them? __________________ Greg Miller "Remember, a valid point never overrules a family tradition." - Me

May 22, 2007, 03:42 PM	#18
Groundhog Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 406	I definitely want to try this next time I go to the range. I'm lucky, I have a membership at a private one. I'll let you know how it goes. __________________ Greg Miller "Remember, a valid point never overrules a family tradition." - Me

May 17, 2007, 07:55 PM	#2
bdcbbq Member Join Date: March 28, 2007 Location: Wherever there's fried chicken or BBQ Posts: 75	Remove the left parenthesis to get to the site.

May 18, 2007, 01:25 PM	#4
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	Theres a bit to the system. In the extended postion the gun is canted slightly inward and the gun is fired right hand, left eye. The reverse is true for firing with the other hand. The system brings the front sight into one's reading distance. As we are all told, focus on the front sight....pick up a book or look at your watch and STOP. The distance the book or watch is from your eyes is where your eyes focus best. This is where the front sight should be in CAR. Aiming with the left eye in CAR makes the nose partially block the right eye from interfering with the sight/ target focus. Although the right eye is still being used and is left open, there is no confusion with the front sight as can happen with other stances. Read some of the articles on the page and they'll do a better job of explaning the system than I can. All I can say is that this system controls the recoil like no other stance I've seen and allows the shooter to fire with extreame speed and accuracy while maintaining a strong fighting / weapon retention position.

May 20, 2007, 11:41 PM	#6
vox rationis Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1,855	Can you please further clarify what you are looking at in the extended position, is it the threat with the front sight hovering in your field of vision, or are you focusing on the front sight? Thanks

May 21, 2007, 11:57 AM	#7
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	One of the things that I've found with this system is unmatched weapon retention. Its a very naturally strong position. If a child has a candy bar and you try to take it from them, they will instictively pin the candy bar into them in a position very similar to the CAR high position. The extended position puts the front sight right into your focal point between you and the target. With both eyes open your focus should be on the target. With the front sight held at your focal point..you will still see the front sight as much as you need to for shooting from CQ distances (under 7yrds). When you go body to head...your focus should still be on the target but you will see the front sight without really working to focus on it. With this system the front sight stays in line between your eye and the target. Subsequent shots will be right in the area where they need to be. This is why even new shooters can fire 4-6 shots / sec into fist sized groups using this system. One other thing that I like about CAR is that should the gun go down or jam...the shooter can deliver powerfull pistol punches / elbows from this position. CAR is real good in CQC but can be used for distance as well. On the sabre website, read the article on the iso/ weaver stance vs the CAR system and the distance stance is shown. Its really a complete system for any situation. for those of you that already shoot a weaver...its not to far off from what your used to.

May 21, 2007, 01:07 PM	#8
vox rationis Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1,855	Evan thanks for the explanation. Another question though: what grip on the weapon do you specifically use in the extended position, especially with regards to the weak hand? Is it pretty much a weaver grip, or are there specific changes? Also, can you please describe the process starting from the draw; what I want to know is, do you draw and directly go into that high chest retention, and only then, shoot? What if the target is say at 10 meters (30 ft. or so) do you still first shoot from the retention position to put quick rounds on target, or do you immediately go into the extended position?

May 21, 2007, 01:56 PM	#9
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	Son, Ill do my best to describe the grip for you...let me know if its still not clear and I'll try to do it a little better...here it goes: Take your right hand and make a fist and punch it into the palm of your left hand at the center of your chest. The thumb of your left hand should be facing up. Instead of folding your right hand thumb down tight into your fist of fingers, let it point streight out parrellel with the ground making contact with your left hand thumb at its joint with the palm of your left hand. This is basically the arrangment for the high position although you may have to adjust it somewhat for your gun / hand size. Take that grip and while keeping the elbow still, swing your left hand up in front of your left eye with your hands still in contact. You want to try not to move your left elbow at all just swing the forearm. Your right elbow will have to lift. With the gun in your hands, the left thumb should be basically facing up with full contact with the slide and frame (dont worry it wont jam your gun..promise the right thumb is making contact with the left one at the same point that it was before. Essentially your making a V with your left thumb and resting the gun in it. CAR is an ambidextrous system so you would reverse everything I told your for shooting from the other side. Your shooting hand should have its wrist and forearm directly behind the gun. This is what really controls the recoil. Also, neither of your wrists should have any kinks in them.. they should be streight and comfortable..if they're bent, your doing it wrong. Use the tip of your finger on the trigger and operate the trigger to the reset and you'll be rocking. The glock in my opinion is the best gun for this system. The high position is never the prefered shooting position. Its only used at contact distance and when the extended position is imposible for some reason. The extended position is the shooting position. The combat high is used for scanning....shots can be fired from this position as well as the high position if nessesary. Also this system can be operated with one hand in case you need you open a door, operated a flash light or talk on the phone. on the draw, Im coming streight out of the holster, meeting my hands at my center (just like I would for an iso draw) and continue the movement to the E.P. It should be one smooth motion from the holster to the EP. In the high position there should be an equal distance from the front sight to my chest as there is rear sight to my chest. My hands are tight into my body and the gun is parrellel to the ground. I can easily make body to head shots by leaning back slightly. Move your back not the gun. Hope this all helps. This is sytem works great but it takes about 1000 rounds to get used to because having the blast so close to your body and the gun so closed to your face is a little uncomfortable at first. After a bit of time it wont be bad and you'll be flying in no time. On the sabre website go to IPD systems and read the review of the 1st course. I actually took the 2nd one offered and it was excellent. In one of the posts it will say (IPD in action) and it will bring you to gary bellinger's webpage. Check out the videos of CAR in action on his page.

May 21, 2007, 03:18 PM	#11
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	The elbow of the shooting hand will move...thats fine. The support elbow shouldn't need to move though....if it does, only minimally. Its better to keep it still and pivot the arm up so that you can use the elbow as an index for bringing the gun to the same place every time.

May 21, 2007, 03:19 PM	#12
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	one other thing...in the high position the elbows are not sucked in...they're relaxed down.

May 21, 2007, 04:01 PM	#14
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	Its not a big deal that they're doing this...its just slower and less consistent. Its better to try to keep it stationary.

May 22, 2007, 02:40 PM	#15
vox rationis Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1,855	Evan thanks for the detailed descriptions. My problem is that the weak (left) hand thumb, while sticking straight up as you suggest hits the left side of the slide (I have long thumbs). What gives me a stronger grip is if I have the left thumb tucked underneath the right thumb (pointing to the 3'oclock, with the right thumb pointing 9'oclock). I'm not sure though if this lends itself well for the extended position. I hope I'm not boring everyone with this, but I want to try this technique out to see if I likes it By the way I think I'll have to buy myself an airsoft to practice at home cause I find my regular range more and more restrictive..can't draw and shoot, can't shoot at multiple targets, can't shoot fast, etc etc..and I obviously can't try this CAR/IDP stuff at the range

May 22, 2007, 02:55 PM	#16
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	I think that no matter your hand/thumb size, your thumb will contact the slide somewhat. Basically you want to have the left side of the gun pressed against the left thumb and the underside of the trigger guard tight into the web of your left hand. The thumb and web is a reference point for the proper grip in this system. Im not the authority on how this system is supposed to be done but Im just telling you how it was taught to me. My thumb contacts the slide but does not affect the functioning of my firearm. Try it the way you suggested and see if it works for you. The problem with CAR is like you mentioned its difficult to find areas that will allow you to practice it. It was never intended to be a range application but a fighting system. Its designed to work in harmony with your body's natural responses during high stress situations. Usually while practicing this system, targets are only about 6-20' away and your shooting FAST! Ranges often wont allow such close distances and rapid fire shooting. One thing that is nice about practicing CAR is that the system done properly negates a lot of the effects of recoil. CAR is not much more difficult shooting a +p.45 than it is shooting a 115gr 9mm. Because of this, you can get some good practice in with a .22 or even a pellet gun and it will still be somewhat helpful for the real thing. The difficult part to master with this system is working the trigger reset of your firearm. If you are able to shoot something in practice with the same or very similar trigger to your carry gun, then your practice time will be much more benificial.

May 22, 2007, 03:02 PM	#17
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	One other thing...the grip I mentioned is not critical in the high position. The grip you mentioned is just about the one I use in the HP. I make sure that while using that grip, my hands are in contact with my chest (actually in the pocket in the center of my chest) , the front sight and rear sight are equally equally distanced to my chest and my arms are down and everything is relaxed (elbows arms ect). When I swing up to the extended position, I form the grip I mentioned in the previous post. hope this helps. I was a little unclear about the grip being really only for the extended postion. Remember, the EP is the prefered shooting position, the high is only for emergency shots and max retention at contact distance. As long as your thumbs dont interfere with the proper function of your weapon, it doesn't matter where you place them in the high position.