CCW & Speed of Deployment

[Unique 5.7]

How important do you think speed of deployment is in a self defense CCW situation? I ask because 2 of my friends have convinced me, that all else being equal, either one of them can put 2 or 3 rounds of .32 ACP into a target (body) from a Beretta Tomcat before the other can put the 1st round of a .45 ACP into it from a Colt Commander. Are we looking too much at one stop performance statistics and not paying enough attention to first hits and multiple hits?

[U.F.O.]

Take their bet. They'll lose. A .45 can be drawn from concealment as fast as any other pistol and it has a fast, short single action trigger.

U.F.O.

[mete]

Properly trained you should be able to draw, fire two rounds and make good body hits at close range [ 6' or so] in 1 second. The speed of the draw is independant of the size of the gun. NEVER depend on one shot to do the job regardless of the gun !!! The 45 will however be more likely to have effect on the BG.

[Hard Ball]

Take the bet. You will win IF you have a properly designed holster and practice frequently. For me the fastest draw and fire is from a strong side open top belt holster. However this may not be the case for you.

[MX5]

Properly trained you should be able to draw, fire two rounds and make good body hits at close range [ 6' or so] in 1 second.

I don't know anyone who can draw and get two rounds off COM with their carry gear from concealment. I wanna see this on film.

[waltn]

At Gunsite, Arizona (Jeff Cooper, Lt. Col. USMC retired) we were "required" to do Two (2) head shots from 7 Meters from holster (with some wearing jackets or vests). Almost all class were using .45 ACP Gov't Semi. This was in advanced class. I used Milt Sparks Executive open top holster and 230 gr Hardball.

[jwise]

You're being too hard on him. He didn't give enough details for you to criticize.

If the bet was "can they draw from a pocket carry and put multiple hits (2-3) on target before you can manage to get your full-size .45ACP from its deepcover concealment holster, with retaining straps and fingerprint ID system, then manage to lift it's longslide up and get a sight picture and fire once..." then maybe they have a valid point.

However, the problem is not the caliber of weapon, it's the carry method. Can a Full-size Gov't 1911 .45ACP be carried discreetly in a pocket holster? Not likely. But that doesn't mean the .45ACP is junk. I carry my Glock 30 (.45ACP) in a strong side Bladetech open top holster under an untucked shirt. You better believe (both starting from an IDPA ready position) I will beat them to the third shot. Heck, I'll probably beat them to the first shot, too.

However, if I couldn't wear an untucked shirt, you'll find me carrying a .32 in a front right slacks pocket, with a .357 on my ankle. If speed is of more priority than power, I'll draw the .32. If I have a bit of time, and the BG needs to drop RIGHT NOW, I'll draw the .357.

Speed IS important, but it's not necessarily a function of caliber as it is carry method.

Oh, and 3 rounds on target (COM) usually negates the "one-shot-stop" ranking of serious pistol cartridges.

[Dwight55]

Unique, . . .

I think your leg has been well pulled, . . . your budds are just funnin' with ya.

The advice above about practice, proper holster, etc. is right on the money.

Fact is, . . . using an "open hands at your sides" start, . . . if they have to go into a pocket for a bunny gun, . . . I'm going on my side for my 1911, . . . there is no way they will beat me to the first, second, third or any other shot unless their bunny gun holds 10 (my 1911 slide locks after 9).

Sounds to me like one of them is trying to unload an extra pea shooter they spent too much money on.

May God bless,
Dwight

[MX5]

Then again, if they are talking hand on the gun in a jacket pocket vs. drawing from concealment...

Here are some on-line dry fire drills. Put on your normal carry gear with your normal outer wear and see just how fast you really are.

[mete]

MX5, I'm not the fastest but we [not just me] did it at IPSC and training sessions.Not impossible at all. ....Those were the days when IPSC was for training and practice - before it became a silly game !! For me it was a P7 in a Sparks Summer Special under an open jacket. I hope some others speak up about this.

[MX5]

mete:

Not trying to flame anyone or be argumentative, but the statement is about any "properly trained" shooter getting two rounds off from concealment in one second. Some folks visit web sites to gain knowledge and information. I just don't think the time is realistic, that's all. Like I said, I don't know anyone who can reliably draw from concealment out of normal carry gear and shoot a pair in one second. I still want to see it on film.

[mete]

MX5, no offense taken .In fact when they told us we could do it we said "no way" But we did it !!

[JohnKSa]

mete,

Are you sure you got the time right? A draw to a double tap from concealment in under 1 second sounds very fast.

Unique,

I think they're holding an ace and not telling you about it. While repeat shots will be quicker with a lower recoiling gun (assuming similar skill level) the first shot doesn't have anything to do with caliber. jwise is probably onto something. They're thinking that the .45 will need more concealment and therefore take a bit more time to retrieve while they can already have their hand on their pistol in a jacket pocket or some such. If that's their point, then they are right. It's pretty hard to beat a man to the draw if his hand is already on the gun and his finger is already on the trigger. That is one big advantage of a true pocket gun. You can be completely ready to fire and not even show your gun.

[FrankDrebin]

I don't know anyone who can draw and get two rounds off COM with their carry gear from concealment. I wanna see this on film.

I agree. Aint't gonna happen even with the above average shooter. Only the way above average shooter will be able to do that with a concealed gun. But then again, they don't have daylight savings time out there do they? Maybe they did it on a day when the seconds were longer? I'd like to see them try that with a timer. What do they call them, PACT timers? PAC timers? One of those things.

[roscoe]

It seems to me that the point is that with a P32 or J-frame, you can have your hands in you jacket pocket and your hand on the gun. I think that gives you a significant advantage because you need not flash your piece or otherwise reveal your intent.

You don't have to raise the ante by putting our hand at your belt, you just look like a guy with his hands in his jacket. And if you do need it, there you are!

[LAK]

I think it is easier to get certain guns into action faster than others; but from concealment much depends on the type and placement of holster, cover garments, and personal abilities. Short-barreled small to medium frame revolvers are easy to employ quickly as are some small pistols.

Perhaps the most significant factor though is level of attention and mindset. Any person taken by complete surprize, no matter how well trained, is going to be at a disadvantage. On the other hand, if trouble is spotted before the need to act presents itself, the defender perhaps has the opportunity to attain a discreet firing grip and is ready for a smooth and fast draw, presentation and opening shot.

[Double Naught Spy]

While being able to draw from concealment and fire quickly is important, you will likely have a lot more trouble with getting to the point of making that decision than you will with the mechanics of the draw. Unless you are really on top of your game and manage to see a bad situation unfolding in front of you and have already made decisions as to what you would do and are physically getting ready to implement those decisions, then most of your reaction time will be in the data gathering, interpretation, and decision stages. If you get a chance to see security video segments of robberies in progress, you will see that many folks have anywhere from a 3-5 delay in effecting a response to aggressive threats, assuming they ever get through the process mentally. Probably the part that hinders things the most is the interpretation of what is going on where folks stand gape-mouthed in disbelief, seemingly not believing that the SHTF right in front of them.

mete, I think you have confused the difference between properly trained and competition highly skilled. You know, there is that 'properly trained' shotgunner on American Shooter that can hold his shotgun in his left hand and toss 9 clay birds in the air with his right hand, shoulder the shotgun, and shoot all 9 individually before they hit the ground. No, he is more than just properly trained.

Two shots in under one second. Let's see. First you have approximately 0.20 seconds of reaction time to the stimulus, such as the tone of the timer. Of course, you already know you are going to draw your gun and fire it, so you don't have any decisions to make beyond when you decide to act. Plus, you are already standing in whatever optimal position you want to do the drill, something you won't likely have in reality. If you are skilled, the double tap shots will show being 0.20 seconds apart, about 0.15 if you are really good. We will assume the latter. So out of the one second, you have lost 0.35 seconds to synaptic processes. So left is 0.65 seconds to sweep open the concealment garment, grab the gun, lift, rotate to horizontal, and then start shooting. So how come people like you don't seem to come to my range? I never get to see the super fast people.

[Vanguard.45]

"I don't know anyone who can draw and get two rounds off COM with their carry gear from concealment. I wanna see this on film."

Here's your proof-

Go and pick up the "Miami Vice- Season One" DVD set and watch the fourth episode ("Calderone's Return/ Hit List"). The episode features Jim Zubiena as an "Argentinian Hitman" who has come to Miami to take care of some business.

Jim Zubiena was a competitive shooter at the time and there is a scene in which his character has just completed an assassination on a target in a limo. Another bodyguard arrives on the scene and gets the drop on the hitman. Zubiena puts down the shotgun and is told to stand still by the bodyguard who has a revolver trained on him. The bodyguard makes the mistake of looking over at the limo for just a moment. Zubiena reaches down to lift his outer shirt, draws a .45 from the front of his pants with the other hand and shoots the bodyguard three times in what could NOT be over a second. The scene was not sped up and shows what is possible with proper practice and efficient drawstrokes. Zubiena was hired precisely because he was known for his speed and for his expertise with firearms.

This scene alone is worth the price of the entire DVD set ($50).

Does anyone know what Zubiena is up to these days? I would just like to call him up to say thanks for the inspiration!!!

Vanguard.45

[CB3]

The difference between knowing you are in a contest at the range, standing still and being mentally prepared to rip out your whatever and show how fast you can shoot it, and getting attacked suddenly and getting your whatever out and operating--huge.

Artificial environments and situations create artificial results. What can be accomplished in a video arcade is not the same as what happens on the street.

In the real world, if you are alert enough you will have some warning as to what is about to happen, and you can be prepared and probably very fast with your chosen response--except of course for the reality that someone may be shooting at you, and you are moving, which might affect your accuracy, a little.

In the real world, if you are superbly trained and your skills are continually honed, and if you operate in a threatening environment regularly and you carry with a very accesible method, and you are surprized, you might get two accurate shots off in one second from concealment--assuming you are not dodging bullets coming at you.

But when the vast majority of CCW civilians, probably less than five percent of those who carry for protection, including me, find themselves in a truly surprize, lethal encounter, recognizing the problem, deciding on the solution, acting out the training and delivering a competent response (two shots, COM) would likely take more than one second. Probably two or three, at least.

So, can it be done? Sure. Will it be done outside of an artificial setting? Not likely, at least IMO. That doesn't mean we should not train and strive for such speed and accuracy. We just need to be realists if we can't approach that level of performance. CB3

[mayassa]

is this the miami vise shooter?

[LAK]

At the upper end of demonstrated practiced expertise there are examples like Bill Jordan's court performance in defense of someone who had drawn and shot a subject before they had even had a chance to clear leather. In Jordan's demo he had a court subject (think it was a deputy) hold a cocked revolver, finger on the trigger, with instructions to "shoot" when he was perceived as drawing his own handgun. Those who are familiar with the account know the rest; Jordan drew and "fired" so fast that the demo assistant just stood there with his mouth open. He didn't even pull the trigger, let alone beat Jordan to the shot.

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes, there are some fast people out there, but they are not the norm.

I have read about the Jordon court demonstration. I am not convinced he didn't have something arranged with the deputy or that the deputy didn't have some problem in pulling the trigger. Decent human response to a stimulus is about 0.20 seconds. We ran a whole class through with a timer, gun out, finger on trigger, firing the gun when they heard the time beep. Most times were 0.20-0.24 with a couple below 0.20 and a couple above 0.24. The class had 20 people.

So, I see no way in which the deputy could not have fired before Jordon was able to draw his gun.

Here is one version of the story from http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/rocksprings2.html

Assuming the information presented is correct, Jordan messed up his numbers in stating that the normal human reponse of 0.50 seconds. If he did actually manage to draw in 0.27 seconds, it was because he was NOT carrying concealed. Also, he was doing a demonstration on speed to show just how fast another officer could draw, Cantrell. Not replicated was the fact that Cantrell was sitting in the passenger seat of a car when he did his supposedly miraculously fast draw. Oh, and Cantrell was not carrying concealed either.

In trial practice, lawyers frequently save the best witness for last and will ocassionly make a "show." Juries remember best that which they heard first and that which they heard last. Thus, the media frenzy continued. Spence called as his last witness, a former border patrolman, National Rifle Association shootist, and author of the book No Second Place Winner, Bill Jordan. Spence received permission for a court room demonstration. A gun was loaded with blanks and a young deputy was told to point the gun at Jordan and if Jordan made any move towards his gun to pull the trigger. All of a sudden a shot was fired in the courtroom. The deputy stood there chagrinned, the deputy's weapon still unfired. Jordan testified that the normal human reaction time is 1/2 second, but he, Jordan, had trained himself to draw and fire in 0.27 seconds, less than half the time for someone else merely to recognize that an opponent is going for his gun.

[Unique 5.7]

I think many people here missed the "all else being equal" criteria. That includes the concealment method, the shooter's skill, etc. A little background: We're all tennis players & shooters and are very familar with swingweight and how too much in a racquet can result in many missed shots, esp. volleys. I really don't see how (all else being equal) a gun weighing over twice the weight of another gun could be deployed more rapidly and get off the first shot. Anybody arguing differently is unfamilar with basic physics. The real question to me is if the smaller gun can get off a 2nd or 3rd shot before the heavier gun gets off its first shot.

[CB3]

All else is never equal.

That's why some win, and others lose. It's the human factor.

Your original query/statement left out so many of the "variables" (What else is equal?) as to render it almost meaningless. It's the other posters adding details that have given the thread life.

What are the "equal" conditions? What do you mean by deployment? Both guns in hand, at the low ready, fingers on the trigger? Both guns concealed in the same concealment method? Are you trying to say the deployment is slower, or the actual shooting is slower? If deployment method is "equal", are you trying to say that a smaller, lighter gun will deploy and shoot faster than a bigger, heavier gun, based on the laws of physics?

Just WHAT are you saying?

CB3

[Vanguard.45]

Unique5.7 wrote:

"I really don't see how (all else being equal) a gun weighing over twice the weight of another gun could be deployed more rapidly and get off the first shot."

First of all, you're talking about a matter of 20 ounces, give or take. Maybe for some people, that's an issue, but not to those of us training our bodies to bicep curl 100 pounds or bench press 300 pounds.

Second of all, the essence of fighting on the street is to NOT have things equal. If you're wanting to do a science experiment about draw speeds, keep it in the laboratory. On the streets, cheating is the rule.

Third, there are three Types of Speed relevant to a gunfight: Perceptual Speed, Mental Speed, and Physical Speed. This is why little old men can whip the young men's a$$es in martial arts classes. It's not because they're physically faster, but rather because they are able to perceive problems and decide what actions to take faster and more appropriately.

Me? I carry a 1911, and while I may not be able to "whip it out" as fast as a guy with a .32, you can probably bet it's going to already be in my hands before the trouble really gets-a-brewing. Twenty-one years of martial arts taught me a little bit about what the Japanese call "heiho" (strategy). Gunfights and fistfights are both still fights.

Vanguard.45