shooting a double action as a single action

[AK103K]

real close

Is that like almost exactly right on?

[Hawg]

You have to listen hard to tell the difference.

[AK103K]

The point I was trying to make was, the hammers on SAO revolvers, seem to fall forever once the trigger is pulled.

Perhaps the bolt going home on an open bolt SMG is a better analogy. Less smoke too.

[Hawg]

Sorry for hijacking the thread but to get it back on track I have two DA revolvers. A 1926 S&W 3rd model made in 1930 and an H&R Sportsman made in 36. I can't hit a barn from the inside with either one of them DA and don't care to learn. I grew up with single actions and that's how I shoot.

[44 AMP]

Tis a funny thing, the way we shoot, the way we learn, each quite individual.

Up until shortly past my 30th birthday, I couldn't shoot DA for anything. Would have had a hard time hitting a barn, from the inside...

Each and every time, the same thing, so I didn't practice DA shooting much at all.

Then, one day, with no change to my shooting routine or habits that I could tell, things changed. Just for snits & giggles, I tried a cylinder DA at some steel in my backyard (25-30ish yds). Tink, tink, tink , tink, tink, tink. Think?

Almost seemed like I couldn't miss. Same gun and ammo I had been shooting for years, only now, for no reason I could fathom, instead of being all over the place, I was actually shooting groups! And reasonable size ones, at that.

Everyone is different. I still seldom shoot DA, but I know now that if I do, I can. And that's enough for me.

[Willie Lowman]

Thanks for the replies.

I shoot my 627 DA as often as I shoot it SA. And I don't shoot it very often...

The Redhawk is pretty much always single action. As some have mentioned, good accuracy can be had from the long double action pull. I agree only if I can slowly pull through the double action. Trying to take quick shots DA usually results in terrible accuracy for me.

[ZVP]

Basically I positioned myself as a S/A shooter by owning Old West Type revolvers all my life.
JUst this past year I bought a Model 10 and 36 to learn DA shooting.
Here I am in 2014 and facing a probable encounter with a Semi-auto, and I shoot a Vaquero? Yea I thought it was time to hone my skills and keep myfamily and self safer.
Learning DA is one of the toughest things I have done, I do everything wrong and shoot some big groups! Slowly I am gaining control and my groups are sorta better...
One thing for sure, S/A is far easier because all you have to trip is the hammer, Da you do that and roll the cylinder with one finger! So many chances to wiggle the gun!
It's a learning process and if you read, observe the pros and work on your own, you will get better.
ZVP

[rclark]

No harm at all.... When I had a DA (SRH) I always shot it SA. Sold it and now only shoot Single Actions and BP revolvers. My style of shooting from knee high (and I turn 50 this year). Funny how that is! And I have no 'drive' to learn DA ( I do have McGivern's book too ... but still) . Perfectly satisfied with thumbing the cartidges in one at a time and the empties back out again and hitting what I aim at with an easy 2# trigger pull. Moving to rifles, a good lever gun (preferred) or bolt action is right up my alley. No use for a spray and pray rifle.

[mehavey]

"...quality flint lock is real close to centerfire speeds."

Uuuuuuh.... Don't think so....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYXbf9m36nI





(incidentally, the example(s) of percussion hammer blowback near the video end [2:00+] are also instructive)

[Hawg]

That lock doesn't spark very well and the frizzen is open before it sparks at all. A good lock will fire the gun before the frizzen is halfway open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncqCzaMCj9I

[4V50 Gary]

Returning to the subject of police training, some agencies like LAPD actually ground the SA notch off the hammer; making their revolvers DAO. They didn't want officers to be killed from losing time to cock the gun before shooting.

DA revolver shooting takes practice and I learned on my own on my sister's Python.

[mehavey]

That's fast, I agree.
But I rarely encounter anything not unlike what you see below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V045WlcJ5A

(The lock time at the 1:00 eaxmple is about as fast as this guy gets)

[Jim Watson]

Returning to the subject of police training, some agencies like LAPD actually ground the SA notch off the hammer; making their revolvers DAO. They didn't want officers to be killed from losing time to cock the gun before shooting.

M. Ayoob said that the main reason was to avoid ADs. That a drawn gun had lost its ability to intimidate, so the cops were cocking their revolvers to make their point. That had to be stopped.
I know of three ADs with cocked double action revolvers.

[buck460XVR]

Very few folks will ever wear the action of a modern revolver out, when using appropriate ammo, regardless of whether they use it DA or SA. If they can afford the ammo to do so, the cost of repairing or replacing the firearm will be a moot point.


As for SA vs DA, whatever trips your trigger. I am one of those that prefers the grip angle of DAs as compared to most SAs. I shoot most of my DA hunting revolvers SA the majority of the time. My DA SD revolvers get shoot DA the majority of the time. Like any firearm, you practice with them in the scenarios that you are most likely to encounter when using them. One doesn't practice shooting only @ 50 yards with a rifle when they expect to shoot 600 yards at an Elk a month later. Folks try and make way too much of the DA/SA debate, when in reality, there is no debate. It is just common sense and preference.

[The Rattler]

My instructor, a retired state trooper who ended his career as an instructor for troopers, was in a good number of gun fights during his career. He will not let me fire SA in his presence. He said using SA under stress is likely to result in accidental discharge possibly hitting an inniocent person. He also says a high percentage of personal defense situations, one does not have time to cock the hammer. Accordingly, one needs to be proficient at DA.

[Don P]

Shooting DA will greatly improve your trigger control with practice, thus making you a better shooter with revolvers and semi-auto's. Try giving an ICORE match a try if available in your area.

[44 AMP]

He said using SA under stress is likely to result in accidental discharge possibly hitting an inniocent person.

This is a common view among many who have had law enforcement experience. And they are right, for them. But not as right, for you, or I. Police officers hold people at gun point, more often than they actually have to shoot them. Holding someone (who might possibly move suddenly, etc.) at gun point with a cocked revolver is very likely to result in AD, and multiplied over the number of officers and times it happens is a very poor policy for and Dept. to endorse or teach. Also the people they are holding at gunpoint are often in public where other (innocent) people are near.

Personal defense, particularly in the home is not the same situation.

And while I do agree that one can focus on teaching only DA shooting, particularly for personal defense, its not the only thing we do with our guns.

He also says a high percentage of personal defense situations, one does not have time to cock the hammer.

I also hear this one a lot. And I have to disagree, slightly. If you have time to draw the gun, you have time to cock the hammer. What you might not have is time to aim well, and certainly not have the time to do it in the way you are used to shooting casually.

And that's where the trouble comes in. Shooting SA "teaches" you to do things slowly and precisely. Very good for everything except close range personal defense. Its not the physical time needed to cock the gun that puts you at risk, its the other factors one is used to doing when shooting SA that are dangerous in that situation.

Note that the world record draw and fire times (fast draw) have been dominated by SA revolvers for generations. Its not just the cocking of the hammer that slows you down and puts you at greater risk in a defensive shooting, but cocking the hammer is what many people focus on and say is the problem.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Holding someone (who might possibly move suddenly, etc.) at gun point with a cocked revolver is very likely to result in AD, and multiplied over the number of officers and times it happens is a very poor policy for and Dept. to endorse or teach. Also the people they are holding at gunpoint are often in public where other (innocent) people are near.

Personal defense, particularly in the home is not the same situation.

The situation may not be exactly the same, but they're similar in that drawing and pointing doesn't automatically mean "shooting" is required or that shooting won't get you into a heap of trouble. Whether to fire or not is a decision must be made quickly, and a decision the shooter (not an adrenaline-filled trigger finger) needs to weigh and make.

BTW, I've seen several references to "Accidental" Discharges wrt a cocked hammer. Ain't no thing, IMHO: Plain and simply, it's a Negligent Discharge.

[JohnKSa]

If you have time to draw the gun, you have time to cock the hammer.

That's true for the first shot. After that, the shooter will either have to compromise his/her grip to put one of the thumbs in a position to rapidly recock the gun for each shot or slow things down by taking a conventional grip, then moving the hands around to recock and reacquiring the grip for each subsequent shot.

One of the best reasons not to cock a revolver for self-defense is for the occasions when no shooting is actually required. That leaves the defender with a cocked revolver and, most likely with a massive adrenaline dump. The choice is now between decocking with all that adrenaline in the system or leaving the gun cocked until such time as things calm down a little. Neither choice is particularly attractive.

[coldbeer]

My revolvers are all long barreled hunting revolvers so I don't really feel guilty about shooting them SA 99 percent of the time. They aren't and never will be used for SD or home protection since I have other firearms that are much better suited for that purpose. My next revolver will be a 44 magnum Blackhawk with the longest barrel I can find.

[T. O'Heir]

"...how the "fastest gun" in the fight..." Fast didn't mean accurate, even 100 plus years ago.
Nothing bad will ever happen by shooting a DA revolver on single action only. Not even to your morals. In any case, the revolver must fit your hand properly to shoot DA well.
"...have to compromise his/her grip to...to rapidly recock the gun..." Think in terms of having two hands. You have a free thumb.

[Bezoar]

it will never hurt the revolver to shoot it SA instead of DA. the only things that can happen are this..

1. youll notice the difference in the trigger betweens mode of firing.
The difference in SA for me can easily make me want to shift my grip into a traditional SAA style hold, that means bad accuracy with a da.

2. you can loose your rythm with the gun. ive seen myself open groups up SA mode because my brain gets the time to see teh individual bullet hits. shooting in DA mode i never see the actual hits until im done with my cylinder ful.

[SG29736]

Don P. mentioned ICORE. I shoot it in Northern Ca. and we've gone down to the International Revolver Championship in San Luis Obispo area for 4 or 5 years. You will occasionally see a newer shooter who is having difficulty hitting some steel targets finally go ahead and cock the hammer and engage them single action. All of the experienced shooters, fire all shots double action. Including the standards stage with 6 shots from 50 yards. It's amazing watching the top shooters with a revolver shoot a stage. Mark

[wa2yyx]

Hi Willie, I have several double action revolvers and I usually use them shooting single action. It makes it more accurate and there should be no difference in ware. The only drawback that I find is if you carry for self defence and you get used to shooting single action that extra time it takes to pull the hammer back may mean your life. You get my drift so as long as you use your gun for target practice then fireing single action is fine. Good luck,

Marty

[Real Gun]

If I was going to shoot mostly double action, some of my guns that shoot fine SA would need trigger work for actions that are too stiff and stagey. I may have to work on that, but employing a gunsmith these days can be a bit of a black hole.