|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
February 19, 2012, 11:48 PM | #101 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,944
|
Quote:
Any 2nd grader can tell you to stop on red, or that the speed limit is 70, and that it's dangerous to break the law. But a lot of adults with high IQs will still take that chance when they're late for work. |
|
February 19, 2012, 11:59 PM | #102 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
|
Quote:
The two are not the same and indeed some less educated people may easily be much smarter than someone who went to university... I don't want to get into a debate obout what intelligence is. If everyone goes back to my initial posts on the subject, it is pretty clear that my comment about minimum IQ was tongue in cheek and we are all focusing on the wrong comment. I do feel that society would benefit from some people not being allowed to drive a car due to some of the things I've seen drivers do: a total lack of maturity from grown adults, but I can still see that an IQ test is not really workable. Psych evaluations maybe..... some of them could do with it! My main and only real comment on this thread was the introduction of an ad campaign to hopefully educate some firearms owners on what they should already know and why. That was it. If that idea does not appeal, so be it
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
|
|
February 20, 2012, 10:48 AM | #103 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
Why Smart People Do Stupid Things by Ostrom!
As far as country folks vs. city folks with accidents with guns, it's an empirical question. Guys in the country get shot by their dog or crossing a fence with a loaded gun. Who knows with a good sample and some Chi-square.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
February 20, 2012, 05:38 PM | #104 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,971
|
Quote:
It happens when a person becomes lax and doesnt follow thru every time. Consistancy is the key here. |
|
February 20, 2012, 05:52 PM | #105 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2011
Location: Dutchess County, NY
Posts: 450
|
Quote:
|
|
February 20, 2012, 10:46 PM | #106 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
The problem with penalties is that what separates this guy from all of us is that the stars were all lined up wrong when his stupid thing happened while we all got away with whatever stupid thing we did.
We've all done things that could have turned out very, very bad. But, there's a list of things that all have to go wrong for our stupid things to end in tragedy. For most of us, the stars don't line up. Be honest. We've all done it. Maybe not with a gun. Maybe with a car, or fireworks, motorcycle, power tools, electricity... Whatever. Our stupid thing didn't kill anyone BY SHEAR LUCK. His did. He should go to jail because he got really unlucky and we shouldn't because we got lucky? |
February 20, 2012, 10:59 PM | #107 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 720
|
peetzakilla,
Yes, he should be tried, hopefully found guilty and punished. He took a life, period. Whether by accident, negligence, or evil intent, he took a life all the same. The only exception is self defense. Threads, and in person conversations like this is what pushes me away from many pro-gun stances. Take a life, with the exception of self defense, a trial, and if guilty a punishment should be served. Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; February 20, 2012 at 11:05 PM. |
February 20, 2012, 11:44 PM | #108 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Quote:
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
|
February 21, 2012, 12:09 AM | #109 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
|
|
February 21, 2012, 02:18 AM | #110 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
|
What of a man finds a new lover, shoots his wife and claims he was cleaning it and it accidentally goes off. It's an accident then and should we say to give him a weekend or two with community service them because he said it was an accident ?
|
February 21, 2012, 02:26 AM | #111 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
I don't think pointing a gun in the direction of a church congregation and pulling the trigger is "simple negligence."
I think it's profoundly stupid, and meets my personal threshold for what should constitute criminally culpable negligence. Pointing the gun somewhere reasonably safe and pulling the trigger, without verifying chamber status, might be reasonably argued to be simple negligence. That's not what happened in this case. |
February 21, 2012, 02:42 AM | #112 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
|
|
February 21, 2012, 03:19 AM | #113 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 11, 2005
Posts: 114
|
@ fiddletown
But it might be criminally negligent manslaughter which is still a felony punishable with serious jail time. Ejecting a magazine but not checking the chamber before pulling the trigger and causing a death fits the description of criminally negligent for me.
|
February 21, 2012, 03:44 AM | #114 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,944
|
Quote:
|
|
February 21, 2012, 05:55 AM | #115 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: Burien,WA
Posts: 897
|
well here in Washington state there aren't any training requirements for a cpl, just have to be able to lawfully own a firearm is all, not that im against firearms training, and it's always sad to hear about a ND/AD,but Washington is a "low-income firearm owner" friendly state, and the cpl is good for 5 years and cost $55.75.
|
February 21, 2012, 11:06 AM | #116 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,787
|
The degree of empathy and consideration for others does not seem to me to be linked to intelligence, and my observations over 55 years of life indicate that neither is the related willingness to think about the consequences of one's actions to others.
I don't think it is symptomatic of a nanny state to hold people responsible for thoughtless actions that reach the point of negligence. Homicide as a result of negligence is a different crime than premeditated murder, and in my mind it is just to consider both crimes, but with different penalties. In my state, causing a death by drunk driving carries a separate charge from the drunk driving itself. I consider that a recognition in the law of the fact that there is a significant segment of the population that considers the consequences of their actions to themselves much more highly than the consequences of those same actions to others. That seems an appropriate role of law to me. |
February 21, 2012, 11:37 AM | #117 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
|
I just read that story of the guy who fired his Ruger in a Walmart bathroom and claims he dropped it and it went off.
People can say that we have a right to bear arms, but in Illinois I've never been able to exercise that right and when it comes down to it the 2nd Amendment only means what the courts and case law says it means. I have been active in gun rights debate since 1987, and we have been fighting an ideological war, played out in the courts and the polls. When there is an negligent discharge, I feel it adds credibiltiy to the false claims of the Brady Campaign, LCAV and others. I can't help but feel it's a setback. I know that the right to keep and bear arms is a right just like the right to free speech, and just because someone abuses their right to free speech doesn't mean they lose it, but as I said, the 2nd Amendment so far, at least in Illinois has only been what the courts have said it is. If more mandatory training and frequent continuing education would cut down on NDs then I'm for it. And if someone negligently fires their Ruger in Walmart - they just lost their RTKBA as far as I'm concerned. There are so many threads here about people that are miffed because this company or that doesn't allow people to carry arms into their facilitites. After a guy shoots his Ruger in a Walmart bathroom can you blame Walmart for instituting a no-guns policy in their stores? Mandatory training and continuing education requirments are better than having guns banned everywhere you could possibly go. |
February 21, 2012, 11:50 AM | #118 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
There are generally three level of fault recognized in the law: negligence; gross negligence (or willful, wanton and reckless); and intentional. Often personal injury caused by the second two will result in some criminal responsibility. Criminal responsibility does not arise from personal injury caused by simple negligence unless the underlying negligent act is itself a crime (e. g., drunk driving). In every State one will find a great deal of law, including both statutes and court decisions, which will define and describe the various ways to determine whether particular conduct in a particular case is "negligent", "grossly negligent" or "intentional." |
|
February 21, 2012, 05:06 PM | #119 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2011
Location: Dutchess County, NY
Posts: 450
|
Peetzakilla,
My stupid thing: as a teenager I went out drinking and drove home. Well, I think I drove home, I woke in by bed with my car in the driveway and no one told me later that anyone else drove my car. I realized then that I could have killed someone. The thing is, if I had I would have expected to be tried, convicted and jailed. I was lucky this didn't happen, it could have. I certainly didn't intend to harm anyone. I believe if I or anyone else uses the poor judgment to drink and drive and has the "Bad Luck" to maim or kill someone they need to be punished as a warning to others. If the "Stars Align" when some idiot sneaks into a closet in a public facility to play with his gun while not making sure it is unloaded then he needs to be punished. |
February 21, 2012, 05:18 PM | #120 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2011
Location: Dutchess County, NY
Posts: 450
|
A curious thing about training here in NY State. What many states such as Ct or FL require for training prior to being issued a carry permit is basically illegal here in NY. The way the law is in NY, any adult of 21 years of age or older can not touch a pistol unless he has a permit. A local pistol club used to offer safety training for people interested in getting a permit but wanting some training before hand but landed in hot water for it.
|
February 21, 2012, 05:43 PM | #121 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
For those of you who demand punishment what would you give? What is justice here? What would it take to prevent others from the, " transient lapses of judgment or attention" that fiddletown recently mentioned in another thread. Do you really think fear of punishment will do it? How many people are killed on the highways of our country each year because of a transient lapse of attention? How many hunters are killed because of a transient lapse in judgement? If punishment was such a powerful deterrent why are our prisons so full, and our crime rates so high?
I completely agree accountability for our actions is an important part of our social fabric, but arbitrary punishment for stupid, tragic accidents will not stop them.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
February 21, 2012, 07:04 PM | #122 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2011
Location: Dutchess County, NY
Posts: 450
|
We punish people for the lapse in judgement of driving under the influence. I believe this is just.
Here we have adults indulging in a legal activity which is known to lead to a condition where a judgement is impaired. We punish these people for making the poor judgment of diving while drunk even if they don't injure anyone. Should we not punish drunk drivers? We have a case of an adult choosing to posses a lethal weapon as should be his right. His responsibility should be to take reasonable care to make sure his right to carry does not interfere with another's right to live. If he fails in this, not in a freak accident but in complete disregard of basic safety rules should he be treated differently than a drunk driver? Why? |
February 21, 2012, 07:18 PM | #123 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Drunk driving is a crime, and any damage done because of it a crime. Being stupid is not a crime. If it were many of us would be serving jail time. He had a stupid lapse of judgement that tragically resulted in a young woman being killed. It was completely preventable. What is your punishment for this "crime"? It is not a sarcastic question. I don't know what justice is here. I just don't see how imprisoning this guy will do anything but ruin more lives.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
February 21, 2012, 07:23 PM | #124 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2011
Location: Dutchess County, NY
Posts: 450
|
Quote:
To get back to the original topic, if a person who knowingly takes a firearm into a populated area, does not make sure it is clear of ammunition and even if he thought he did, points it in a direction where he has no idea what is beyond AND puts his finger on the trigger is not criminally or recklessly negligent then who is? Why can we not demand better of our fellow gun owners? Why should they be excused of such idiocy? I'm sorry, I think I've beat the poor nag into a red sludge. Please forgive me. I've always been dismayed by how completely irresponsible hunters could get away with murder and I don't feel people choosing to go armed should be given a free pass because they "made a mistake". If you choose to be armed you must choose NOT to make a mistake. |
|
February 21, 2012, 07:33 PM | #125 |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
We're starting to get into the realm of fruitless speculations.
[1] We have very few details. We only have a general idea, based on news media accounts of what happened. [2] In assessing legal liability and culpability, details frequently matter a great deal. [3] And Zambrana's legal liability will decided based on Florida law. [4] I have no doubt that Mr. Zambrana can be held legally responsible in some way. But whether it will only be a matter of civil liability or criminal charges will be brought and sustained remains to be seen. |
|
|