When Less Than Lethal Fails, but Lethal Not Warranted

Double Naught Spy · July 7, 2004, 09:28 AM

When all else fails, sack the quarterback tactics still come into play. Pepper spray and FIVE beanbag shots were not effective. We know this stuff, but it still seems pretty crazy. I have no idea why they thought shooting the guy in the legs was the way to go.

http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedconten...2d4aa8c61.html

Police arrest man on public intoxication charge
07:32 AM CDT on Wednesday, July 7, 2004

Staff report

Police finally were able to subdue a large intoxicated man at about 3:40 a.m. Saturday in a hospital parking lot.

The man had been in a fight in Lake Dallas and had been brought to the hospital emergency room in the 3500 block of Interstate 35E for treatment of his injuries. But he was screaming profanities and threatening hospital staff, so they called for police assistance, according to the report.

An officer found the man screaming in the parking lot and tried to calm him.

However, the man shouted profanities at the officer and challenged him to a fight.

The officer called for backup, and another officer and a sergeant responded.

The man, who appeared to be a bodybuilder, continued to be abusive, so an officer used pepper spray to try to subdue him. The man seemed unaffected by the spray, according to the report, and continued to be abusive.

An officer used a non-lethal beanbag gun. After five tries, pausing between each shot, he determined the beanbags were not subduing the man. The three officers rushed him and took him to the ground. They put restraints on him and placed him in a wheelchair. They took him into the emergency room for treatment of the fight injuries and the abrasions on his legs where the beanbags struck. He refused treatment, so he was taken to the city jail and charged with public intoxication and resisting arrest.

UnforgivenII · July 7, 2004, 10:47 AM

I haven't been trained with the bean bags but it doesn't seem like that would be the best place to shoot him to be effective. I can only imagine what his legs look like though! A Tazer would have dropped him with no problem.

IamNOTaNUT · July 7, 2004, 09:28 PM

You are probably right about the taser. That probably would have changed his attitude dramatically.

I imagine the police were trying to shoot the outside part of the leg about 6 inches above the knee. There is a nerve motor point there known as the common peroneal that is often used in baton strikes and kicks. While every person is different, a direct shot to the common peroneal is often enough to drop a suspect to the ground and cause his leg to cramp up painfully for about 5 minutes (sometimes up to 30 minutes) which renders his resistence ineffective. This is less dangerous than shooting to the torso where you can inadvertantly damage important stuff (heart, kidneys, etc).

Roadkill Coyote · July 8, 2004, 04:35 PM

Most departmental policies and manufacturer's recommendations for the use of Specialty Impact munitions (beanbags, large caliber rubber, foam and wood baton rounds) call for them to be targeted at the lower abdomen and/or legs to reduce the likelyhood of serious injury. Of those two options, the legs are the least risky, and most appropriate for a subject without a weapon.

As for their effectiveness, beanbags are still just an impact weapon, limited by design to avoid penetration. Just like a baton strike, they don't work on everybody. Think of beanbags as a chemical powered baseball bat that you can use to slug someone in the gut from thirty feet away. Someone that would shrug off your baseball bat up close may shrug off your beanbag from across the parking lot.

The Taser has an excellent track record, and tends to be more effective on persons with lots of muscle mass, but it's still vulnerable to failure due to thick clothing, operator error, or low batteries. Probably would have helped, but things can still go wrong with any plan.

All things considered, they did an excellent job. They tried all their other options first. then when that didn't work they went ahead and tackled him. Less Lethal is intended to reduce, not eliminate risk. It's like playing cards. You bet on a good hand, not because you know that it will win every time, but because it will win more times than lose in the long run.

IamNOTaNUT · July 9, 2004, 01:50 AM

Roadkill - well done.

LAK · July 9, 2004, 10:24 PM

Tazers, like other electronic stun devices are certainly not 100% effective as Erick Gelhaus states. There are people that can take those charges and basically shrug them off. About the only "sure" thing to take someone off their feet is an impact which breaks the leg or knee. Or a fire hose perhaps

Hkmp5sd · July 9, 2004, 10:59 PM

Quote:

A Tazer would have dropped him with no problem.

Didn't slow down Rodney King.

Our training cautioned us not to try to break the knee or elbow trying to take someone into custody using less than lethal means. It risks permanently crippling the BG and very big lawsuits. Go for a nice clean break of the tibia or forearm.

IamNOTaNUT · July 10, 2004, 01:32 AM

I would not recommend the intentional breaking of any bone. That would be considered lethal force under current supreme court rulings. Lethal force is defined as any force that is likely to result in serious injury or death. Broken bones being included in the serious injury.

If you are going to whack someone with a baton, or less lethal round, it is probably best to stick to nerve motor points that are surrounded by large muscle tissue to reduce the liklihood of a serious injury. Unless, of course, lethal force is justified.

LAK · July 10, 2004, 01:51 PM

A broken bone does not have be intentional; but an extremely big and tough subject that shrugs off a few taps in the right place - may require a single heavy blow in the right place. This is still less than lethal, but I agree that an area that would produce a clean break should be the primary target rather than a joint. This would minimize permanent injury or disability.

Roadkill Coyote · July 10, 2004, 09:23 PM

Like many agencies, we use the term Less Lethal, rather than Less Than Lethal, because like all force, Specialty Impact munitions can be lethal, if they used wrong or unlikely circumstances intervene. It may seem like a semantic detail, but it's important (really, it's a lot like calling a magazine a clip

).

Within Specialty Impact munitions, there is a broad range of options from the least energetic, which tend to be your foam baton rounds and lower velocity shotgun beanbags, up to your standard Sage round and wood batons (which would be your best bet if thats what was needed). Regardless of type, the manufacturers of all of them are still limited by the same need to minimize penetration, which means that you just can't count on them to break a bone on cue. Which round your justified in using, and where your justified in targeting them are going to be determined by the specifics of your situation, state law, and departmental policy.

Since there is no mention of the subject in this case being armed, and they were in a sufficeintly contained situation to be able to hit him five times before moving to another tactic, I seriously doubt that they would have been justified in using a tactic intended to break a bone. It certainly wouldn't fit our statute or policy here. As I said before, it appears that they moved up their continuum, escalating in order of likelyhood of lasting injury, until they got it done.

Quartus · July 11, 2004, 02:48 PM

Quote:

It may seem like a semantic detail, but it's important

Yep. Words count.

eka · July 14, 2004, 10:06 AM

You're department has to have a taser as a force option in order to use it. Many departments don't. Pepper spray is known to be ineffective on at least 10% of the population. Any impact weapon, whether it be a baton, beanbag, or whatever cannot be utilized on the head, neck, torso, or groin. To do so would be considered a use of deadly force. Arms and legs are appropriate non-lethal targets for impact weapons. I can't see anything wrong with these particular officer's actions. (1) Backup was summoned (2) Pepper spray was utilized first as the lowest of the force options (3) An impact weapon was used appropriately. The subject was eventually taken into custody and nobody was seriously injured apparently. Keep in mind this subject was under the influence of substances. These individuals can sustain a lot of damage without feeling the pain until later. I know of one incidenct where a substance abuser was arrested and suffered a broken arm in the process. Nobody knew the arm had been broken. The subject did not say a word about it until the next morning when he sobered up at the jail. My hats off for a job well done!

July 7, 2004, 09:28 AM	#1
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	When Less Than Lethal Fails, but Lethal Not Warranted When all else fails, sack the quarterback tactics still come into play. Pepper spray and FIVE beanbag shots were not effective. We know this stuff, but it still seems pretty crazy. I have no idea why they thought shooting the guy in the legs was the way to go. http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedconten...2d4aa8c61.html Police arrest man on public intoxication charge 07:32 AM CDT on Wednesday, July 7, 2004 Staff report Police finally were able to subdue a large intoxicated man at about 3:40 a.m. Saturday in a hospital parking lot. The man had been in a fight in Lake Dallas and had been brought to the hospital emergency room in the 3500 block of Interstate 35E for treatment of his injuries. But he was screaming profanities and threatening hospital staff, so they called for police assistance, according to the report. An officer found the man screaming in the parking lot and tried to calm him. However, the man shouted profanities at the officer and challenged him to a fight. The officer called for backup, and another officer and a sergeant responded. The man, who appeared to be a bodybuilder, continued to be abusive, so an officer used pepper spray to try to subdue him. The man seemed unaffected by the spray, according to the report, and continued to be abusive. An officer used a non-lethal beanbag gun. After five tries, pausing between each shot, he determined the beanbags were not subduing the man. The three officers rushed him and took him to the ground. They put restraints on him and placed him in a wheelchair. They took him into the emergency room for treatment of the fight injuries and the abrasions on his legs where the beanbags struck. He refused treatment, so he was taken to the city jail and charged with public intoxication and resisting arrest. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

July 7, 2004, 09:28 PM	#3
IamNOTaNUT Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2000 Location: Michigan Posts: 477	You are probably right about the taser. That probably would have changed his attitude dramatically. I imagine the police were trying to shoot the outside part of the leg about 6 inches above the knee. There is a nerve motor point there known as the common peroneal that is often used in baton strikes and kicks. While every person is different, a direct shot to the common peroneal is often enough to drop a suspect to the ground and cause his leg to cramp up painfully for about 5 minutes (sometimes up to 30 minutes) which renders his resistence ineffective. This is less dangerous than shooting to the torso where you can inadvertantly damage important stuff (heart, kidneys, etc). __________________ IamNOTaNUT I didn't do it, but I thought about it. Next time I might. NRA

July 9, 2004, 01:50 AM	#5
IamNOTaNUT Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2000 Location: Michigan Posts: 477	Roadkill - well done. __________________ IamNOTaNUT I didn't do it, but I thought about it. Next time I might. NRA

July 10, 2004, 01:32 AM	#8
IamNOTaNUT Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2000 Location: Michigan Posts: 477	I would not recommend the intentional breaking of any bone. That would be considered lethal force under current supreme court rulings. Lethal force is defined as any force that is likely to result in serious injury or death. Broken bones being included in the serious injury. If you are going to whack someone with a baton, or less lethal round, it is probably best to stick to nerve motor points that are surrounded by large muscle tissue to reduce the liklihood of a serious injury. Unless, of course, lethal force is justified. __________________ IamNOTaNUT I didn't do it, but I thought about it. Next time I might. NRA

July 10, 2004, 09:23 PM	#10
Roadkill Coyote Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 68	Less Lethal, not Less Than Lethal Like many agencies, we use the term Less Lethal, rather than Less Than Lethal, because like all force, Specialty Impact munitions can be lethal, if they used wrong or unlikely circumstances intervene. It may seem like a semantic detail, but it's important (really, it's a lot like calling a magazine a clip ). Within Specialty Impact munitions, there is a broad range of options from the least energetic, which tend to be your foam baton rounds and lower velocity shotgun beanbags, up to your standard Sage round and wood batons (which would be your best bet if thats what was needed). Regardless of type, the manufacturers of all of them are still limited by the same need to minimize penetration, which means that you just can't count on them to break a bone on cue. Which round your justified in using, and where your justified in targeting them are going to be determined by the specifics of your situation, state law, and departmental policy. Since there is no mention of the subject in this case being armed, and they were in a sufficeintly contained situation to be able to hit him five times before moving to another tactic, I seriously doubt that they would have been justified in using a tactic intended to break a bone. It certainly wouldn't fit our statute or policy here. As I said before, it appears that they moved up their continuum, escalating in order of likelyhood of lasting injury, until they got it done.

July 7, 2004, 10:47 AM	#2
UnforgivenII Member Join Date: June 3, 2004 Posts: 57	I haven't been trained with the bean bags but it doesn't seem like that would be the best place to shoot him to be effective. I can only imagine what his legs look like though! A Tazer would have dropped him with no problem.

July 8, 2004, 04:35 PM	#4
Roadkill Coyote Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 68	Most departmental policies and manufacturer's recommendations for the use of Specialty Impact munitions (beanbags, large caliber rubber, foam and wood baton rounds) call for them to be targeted at the lower abdomen and/or legs to reduce the likelyhood of serious injury. Of those two options, the legs are the least risky, and most appropriate for a subject without a weapon. As for their effectiveness, beanbags are still just an impact weapon, limited by design to avoid penetration. Just like a baton strike, they don't work on everybody. Think of beanbags as a chemical powered baseball bat that you can use to slug someone in the gut from thirty feet away. Someone that would shrug off your baseball bat up close may shrug off your beanbag from across the parking lot. The Taser has an excellent track record, and tends to be more effective on persons with lots of muscle mass, but it's still vulnerable to failure due to thick clothing, operator error, or low batteries. Probably would have helped, but things can still go wrong with any plan. All things considered, they did an excellent job. They tried all their other options first. then when that didn't work they went ahead and tackled him. Less Lethal is intended to reduce, not eliminate risk. It's like playing cards. You bet on a good hand, not because you know that it will win every time, but because it will win more times than lose in the long run.

July 9, 2004, 10:24 PM	#6
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	Tazers, like other electronic stun devices are certainly not 100% effective as Erick Gelhaus states. There are people that can take those charges and basically shrug them off. About the only "sure" thing to take someone off their feet is an impact which breaks the leg or knee. Or a fire hose perhaps

July 10, 2004, 01:51 PM	#9
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	A broken bone does not have be intentional; but an extremely big and tough subject that shrugs off a few taps in the right place - may require a single heavy blow in the right place. This is still less than lethal, but I agree that an area that would produce a clean break should be the primary target rather than a joint. This would minimize permanent injury or disability.

July 14, 2004, 10:06 AM	#12
eka Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2004 Posts: 235	You're department has to have a taser as a force option in order to use it. Many departments don't. Pepper spray is known to be ineffective on at least 10% of the population. Any impact weapon, whether it be a baton, beanbag, or whatever cannot be utilized on the head, neck, torso, or groin. To do so would be considered a use of deadly force. Arms and legs are appropriate non-lethal targets for impact weapons. I can't see anything wrong with these particular officer's actions. (1) Backup was summoned (2) Pepper spray was utilized first as the lowest of the force options (3) An impact weapon was used appropriately. The subject was eventually taken into custody and nobody was seriously injured apparently. Keep in mind this subject was under the influence of substances. These individuals can sustain a lot of damage without feeling the pain until later. I know of one incidenct where a substance abuser was arrested and suffered a broken arm in the process. Nobody knew the arm had been broken. The subject did not say a word about it until the next morning when he sobered up at the jail. My hats off for a job well done!