Call me paranoid, but.....

tjhands · October 31, 2005, 09:53 AM

When I reload my ammo, regardless of caliber, I do two different batches, one for plinking and target practice (Raniers and lead), and one for serious poop-hits-the-fan scenarios. These will hopefully collect dust for years. My question is what bullet to use for the latter groups: Hornady XTP is usually the cheapest name-brand hollowpoints around. Would they be OK for use on two-legged varmints, should the need arise? Too much penetration? How about expansion? I know most people use XTPs for hunting, so was wondering if it'd be better to stick with Gold Dots for my intended purposes. Thanks.

Bullet94 · October 31, 2005, 05:53 PM

I'd go with the Gold Dots that's what I use.

Dave R · October 31, 2005, 11:04 PM

'nother vote for Gold Dots. They shoot real well in my pistols.

Mullannix930 · October 31, 2005, 11:27 PM

Gold Dots.... I have looked at lots of data and I have found that they have a great record. And it can't hurt that Black Hills uses them in there HP ammo.

Pointer · November 1, 2005, 03:14 AM

+4

tjhands · November 2, 2005, 01:24 PM

Gold Dots, going once....going twice....SOLD for $15.50!!!!

Shooter 973 · November 2, 2005, 05:05 PM

Hornady XTP's have pr oven to be excellent bullets for me. They are just about the most accurate bullet I've tried in most handgun calibers. I've used them on several different critters and they have performed just like you'd want them to. The fact that they are a little cheaper is only a bonus as far as I'm concerned. They are accurate, and have fine penetration, and expansion qualities. I like them a lot.

Gary H · November 2, 2005, 06:03 PM

Why not test both in your gun? You load 'em, shoot'em and see how often they go bang, how accurately they hit, how much material they go through and how much they expand. I suspect that with a reasonably placed shot, out of a major caliber, you are fairly well set with either one, but Gold Dots are certainly used by more folks. Test them, that way the product of your labors doesn't just sit around and collect dust.

donkee · November 2, 2005, 06:06 PM

Haven't fiddled with the gold dots. I do like XTPs though. No reason to try anything else as far as I'm concerned. A great accurate bullet, good expansion as well..........

Oh, as you asked, I'll now call you paranoid...

You're paranoid!

caz223 · November 4, 2005, 07:10 AM

BIG fan of XTPs in any caliber.
There are cheaper, but the XTPs are a no-brainer for large furry targets.

Windjammer · November 4, 2005, 09:04 AM

I have always been under the impression that it is not a good idea to "roll your own" defensive ammo. This comes from local LEO friends and several books on CCW.

The premise being if you are involved in a shooting and the case goes to court. The fact that you used special "Super Killer" Ammo could be an issue.

Have anyone else heard this?

Rimrod · November 4, 2005, 09:37 AM

Yes I've heard that too Winjammer. I can feel my blood pressure starting to rise so I will try and avoid mentioning any gun writers, but here goes. When you are involved in a shooting, and it doesn't matter which side of the law is representing you, be prepard for a vicious slandering of questions and accusations from the opposing side of the room. Regardless of what type of ammo you used they will attack you anyway. But the outcome is decided on what the 12 lovely people in the jury think. Try to say innocent things like; " I felt factory ammo was too powerful based on the ads I've read, so I loaded my own to less than maximum loads." (1/4 gr. or so) and "Reloading is cheaper and I felt if I shot more it would make me a better shooter and not accidently hit an innocent child." Yes attorneys rule the world and if you and if you need one they can be found behind any ambulance or under any rock.

Al Norris · November 4, 2005, 09:49 AM

From the "Here We Go Again Department..."

Windjammer, did you know that before the advent of Commercial Personal Defense Ammo, that just about every gun magazine published specs for handloading your own PDA?

'Tis true! Handloader magazine still publishes PDA specs from time to time.

I have never seen or heard os a case where the subjects ammunition was cause for concern... Doesn't mean there isn't such a case, just that no one has ever referenced such. Masaad Ayoob seems to be the leader in perpetuating this "myth." And when called to substantiate his claims, he nevers brings forth any case law.

Commercial stuff is just too expensive for me to keep buying to practise with. My loads are taylored for the guns I carry and therefore performs better than the "one size fits all" commercial stuff. So, you can believe whatever, whomever you wish, but for me, I'll load my guns with the best PDA I can produce.

Windjammer · November 4, 2005, 10:12 AM

Yes, Ayoob is one of the sources and maybe my LEO buddies are just repeating what they have been told or read ( repeat something loud enough and long enough it becomes fact).

My current approach for practising has been to duplicate as close as possible the Commercial defense load and use the reloads for practise. But keep the Commercial load in the gun for carry. Which a pain because I have to keep two boxes of ammo for each gun I carry.

greeneggsnham · November 4, 2005, 10:13 AM

it's my opinion that ayoob is an idiot. i decided that when i read about his kempo punch shooting technique. i cringe every time i see someone shooting with his fist balled up to his chest like that D-A.

Al Norris · November 4, 2005, 12:07 PM

While Rimrod declined to name names, I decided to name the one proponant of such, only because I think it needs to be known by us all, who is starting and maintaining such rumors.

While we have had many threads on this subject, the most recent (besides this one) can be found here.

As I have said, for me, I'm comfortable practicing with what I carry. And that is handloads. I have yet to have a properly loaded and assembled handload fail to fire. On the other hand, I have had Commercial PDA ammo fail. As always, YMMV. Read the supplied link and come to your own conclusions.

Rimrod · November 4, 2005, 12:23 PM

Every time I mention his name I hack up a hair ball. Or something. I finally put on a signature because of this thread. And as far as putting your fist over your heart that came from the F.B.I. in the late '50s early '60s as I recall, after all the guslingers they hired in the '20s and '30s died or retired. The idea was to help protect your heart in a shootout, this was before the lightweight affordable vests we have today. Actually the only thing it would have done was not only have a bullet go through your heart but also every bone in your hand. Ayak- oops sorry 'bout that, seems to think it is his idea. I once read an article by him, which was a real pi**er, but it was at his Lethal Force Institute (all bow). Just about every guy on the line was wearing a vest under or over(?) his shirt and had his hand over his heart! I can see it now, you get shot at by a guy with a .22 and end up parking in a blue space.

greeneggsnham · November 4, 2005, 12:35 PM

Rimrod, how interesting and thank you for that bit of history. I won't even get started on the clown and his various "styles" of combatteriness. his knife styles and his karate/shooting methods... scuba steve comes to mind.

tjhands · November 4, 2005, 04:28 PM

Sorry to be vague in my initial post, and I hope that negligence hasn't started a feud here, but in my main home-protection gun I carry Hydra-Shok cartridges, not my homemade ones.
What I meant when I said SHTF (poop hit the fan) scenario, was a New Orleans type of situation, where the stores are being looted, houses are broken into , women are raped, innocents are killed, etc. I don't have enough store-bought ammo to cover me during what could be a longterm absence of structurized law-enforcemnt. During a time such as this, the last thing I'm going to be worried about is whether a jury will frown on my choice of ammunition should I have to protect me and mine with deadly force.

Johnny Guest · November 4, 2005, 05:03 PM

Quote:

I don't have enough store-bought ammo to cover me during what could be a longterm absence of structurized law-enforcemnt

Now, THAT's a scary thought. Please take note - - There were a apparently a noticible number of NOPD personnel who failed in their duty, who were not on post when required, and who didn't make roll call. If one hundred per cent of the municipal, parish, and state cops had been on duty as expected, response times would have been slow. This is to be expected, when surface travel is seriously impeded.

But even that shameful minority who weren't where they were assigned didn't turn the entire area into a free fire zone. Even with feral dogs, snakes, and looters, I'd bet no single person ever fired as much as 20 rounds the entire time.

What is your "basic load?" Full gun plus two reloads? Okay, double that number - - No, TRIPLE it. What do you have now? I bet it's still under 100 rounds. Those folk weren't gearing up for a permanent breakdown of western civilization as we know it - - Just for a few weeks or reduced efficiency.

Let's not contemplate a wholesale slaughter of our neighbors, huh?

Best,
Johnny

October 31, 2005, 09:53 AM	#1
tjhands Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2005 Posts: 1,718	Call me paranoid, but..... When I reload my ammo, regardless of caliber, I do two different batches, one for plinking and target practice (Raniers and lead), and one for serious poop-hits-the-fan scenarios. These will hopefully collect dust for years. My question is what bullet to use for the latter groups: Hornady XTP is usually the cheapest name-brand hollowpoints around. Would they be OK for use on two-legged varmints, should the need arise? Too much penetration? How about expansion? I know most people use XTPs for hunting, so was wondering if it'd be better to stick with Gold Dots for my intended purposes. Thanks. __________________ "If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent

October 31, 2005, 05:53 PM	#2
Bullet94 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2004 Location: Kansas Posts: 723	I'd go with the Gold Dots that's what I use. __________________ PRO-SECOND AMENDMENT - Live Free or Die

October 31, 2005, 11:04 PM	#3
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	'nother vote for Gold Dots. They shoot real well in my pistols. __________________ I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).

November 2, 2005, 01:24 PM	#6
tjhands Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2005 Posts: 1,718	Gold Dots, going once....going twice....SOLD for $15.50!!!! __________________ "If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent

November 2, 2005, 05:05 PM	#7
Shooter 973 Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2001 Location: Home town of John M. Browning, Utah Posts: 499	Good Bullets....... Hornady XTP's have pr oven to be excellent bullets for me. They are just about the most accurate bullet I've tried in most handgun calibers. I've used them on several different critters and they have performed just like you'd want them to. The fact that they are a little cheaper is only a bonus as far as I'm concerned. They are accurate, and have fine penetration, and expansion qualities. I like them a lot. __________________ The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

October 31, 2005, 11:27 PM	#4
Mullannix930 Junior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: KY Posts: 11	Gold Dots.... I have looked at lots of data and I have found that they have a great record. And it can't hurt that Black Hills uses them in there HP ammo.

November 1, 2005, 03:14 AM	#5
Pointer Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2005 Location: Utah Posts: 2,559	+4

November 2, 2005, 06:03 PM	#8
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Why not test both in your gun? You load 'em, shoot'em and see how often they go bang, how accurately they hit, how much material they go through and how much they expand. I suspect that with a reasonably placed shot, out of a major caliber, you are fairly well set with either one, but Gold Dots are certainly used by more folks. Test them, that way the product of your labors doesn't just sit around and collect dust.

November 2, 2005, 06:06 PM	#9
donkee Junior member Join Date: November 7, 2004 Location: Mid-Michigan Posts: 449	Haven't fiddled with the gold dots. I do like XTPs though. No reason to try anything else as far as I'm concerned. A great accurate bullet, good expansion as well.......... Oh, as you asked, I'll now call you paranoid... You're paranoid!

November 4, 2005, 07:10 AM	#10
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	BIG fan of XTPs in any caliber. There are cheaper, but the XTPs are a no-brainer for large furry targets. __________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.)

November 4, 2005, 09:04 AM	#11
Windjammer Member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Eastern North Carolina Posts: 83	This is mainly a question I have always been under the impression that it is not a good idea to "roll your own" defensive ammo. This comes from local LEO friends and several books on CCW. The premise being if you are involved in a shooting and the case goes to court. The fact that you used special "Super Killer" Ammo could be an issue. Have anyone else heard this? __________________ "I am completely out of ammo... that's never happened to me before." --- Burt Gummer

November 4, 2005, 09:37 AM	#12
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	Yes I've heard that too Winjammer. I can feel my blood pressure starting to rise so I will try and avoid mentioning any gun writers, but here goes. When you are involved in a shooting, and it doesn't matter which side of the law is representing you, be prepard for a vicious slandering of questions and accusations from the opposing side of the room. Regardless of what type of ammo you used they will attack you anyway. But the outcome is decided on what the 12 lovely people in the jury think. Try to say innocent things like; " I felt factory ammo was too powerful based on the ads I've read, so I loaded my own to less than maximum loads." (1/4 gr. or so) and "Reloading is cheaper and I felt if I shot more it would make me a better shooter and not accidently hit an innocent child." Yes attorneys rule the world and if you and if you need one they can be found behind any ambulance or under any rock.

November 4, 2005, 09:49 AM	#13
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	From the "Here We Go Again Department..." Windjammer, did you know that before the advent of Commercial Personal Defense Ammo, that just about every gun magazine published specs for handloading your own PDA? 'Tis true! Handloader magazine still publishes PDA specs from time to time. I have never seen or heard os a case where the subjects ammunition was cause for concern... Doesn't mean there isn't such a case, just that no one has ever referenced such. Masaad Ayoob seems to be the leader in perpetuating this "myth." And when called to substantiate his claims, he nevers brings forth any case law. Commercial stuff is just too expensive for me to keep buying to practise with. My loads are taylored for the guns I carry and therefore performs better than the "one size fits all" commercial stuff. So, you can believe whatever, whomever you wish, but for me, I'll load my guns with the best PDA I can produce.

November 4, 2005, 10:12 AM	#14
Windjammer Member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Eastern North Carolina Posts: 83	Yes, Ayoob is one of the sources and maybe my LEO buddies are just repeating what they have been told or read ( repeat something loud enough and long enough it becomes fact). My current approach for practising has been to duplicate as close as possible the Commercial defense load and use the reloads for practise. But keep the Commercial load in the gun for carry. Which a pain because I have to keep two boxes of ammo for each gun I carry. __________________ "I am completely out of ammo... that's never happened to me before." --- Burt Gummer

November 4, 2005, 10:13 AM	#15
greeneggsnham Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Posts: 85	it's my opinion that ayoob is an idiot. i decided that when i read about his kempo punch shooting technique. i cringe every time i see someone shooting with his fist balled up to his chest like that D-A.

November 4, 2005, 12:07 PM	#16
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	While Rimrod declined to name names, I decided to name the one proponant of such, only because I think it needs to be known by us all, who is starting and maintaining such rumors. While we have had many threads on this subject, the most recent (besides this one) can be found here. As I have said, for me, I'm comfortable practicing with what I carry. And that is handloads. I have yet to have a properly loaded and assembled handload fail to fire. On the other hand, I have had Commercial PDA ammo fail. As always, YMMV. Read the supplied link and come to your own conclusions.

November 4, 2005, 12:23 PM	#17
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	Yup! That's the One! Every time I mention his name I hack up a hair ball. Or something. I finally put on a signature because of this thread. And as far as putting your fist over your heart that came from the F.B.I. in the late '50s early '60s as I recall, after all the guslingers they hired in the '20s and '30s died or retired. The idea was to help protect your heart in a shootout, this was before the lightweight affordable vests we have today. Actually the only thing it would have done was not only have a bullet go through your heart but also every bone in your hand. Ayak- oops sorry 'bout that, seems to think it is his idea. I once read an article by him, which was a real pi**er, but it was at his Lethal Force Institute (all bow). Just about every guy on the line was wearing a vest under or over(?) his shirt and had his hand over his heart! I can see it now, you get shot at by a guy with a .22 and end up parking in a blue space. __________________ "... he held his gun as almost every man skilled in such matters preferred to hold one when in action, with a half bent elbow that brought the gun slightly in front of his body at about, or slightly above, the level of the waist." - Wyatt Earp from Wyatt Earp Frontier Marshall by Stuart N. Lake

November 4, 2005, 12:35 PM	#18
greeneggsnham Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Posts: 85	Rimrod, how interesting and thank you for that bit of history. I won't even get started on the clown and his various "styles" of combatteriness. his knife styles and his karate/shooting methods... scuba steve comes to mind.

November 4, 2005, 04:28 PM	#19
tjhands Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2005 Posts: 1,718	Sorry to be vague in my initial post, and I hope that negligence hasn't started a feud here, but in my main home-protection gun I carry Hydra-Shok cartridges, not my homemade ones. What I meant when I said SHTF (poop hit the fan) scenario, was a New Orleans type of situation, where the stores are being looted, houses are broken into , women are raped, innocents are killed, etc. I don't have enough store-bought ammo to cover me during what could be a longterm absence of structurized law-enforcemnt. During a time such as this, the last thing I'm going to be worried about is whether a jury will frown on my choice of ammunition should I have to protect me and mine with deadly force. __________________ "If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent