hand load question

onehitwonder · March 8, 2009, 07:33 PM

what does it mean when you shoot your rifle and your group is not in a close together or at least round pattern but an almost straight line up and down? And the shots were not concecutive top to bottom they skipped around to make this line

kyle663 · March 8, 2009, 07:37 PM

could be flinching or jerking the trigger. not enough info to be sure.

onehitwonder · March 8, 2009, 07:43 PM

I usually don't flinch. 222 browning. My other groups with the same hand load were like they should be. The only thing I changed was the oal. I seated them to .02 .03 .04 off the lands in five round batches. went from 3/4 moa to over 1 moa and long groups instead of clusters. Good trigger on it 2lbs with new timney springs

kyle663 · March 8, 2009, 07:50 PM

changing the oal could do it. find the oal that groups the best and stay with it.

onehitwonder · March 8, 2009, 07:54 PM

thats what I figured. I may go from the other end of the spectrum. I loaded them to manual specs and was just trying to tighten em up a lil. I may start at max oal spec and move up instead of measuring my gun and moving down like I did

kyle663 · March 8, 2009, 08:01 PM

if you know which oal was gruoping best, try changing powder charge up or down that will have an influence on accuracy as well. just keep an eye out for excessive pressure signe when you start getting close to the max charge. might try different powders also. it all makes a difference. think i'm useing imr4198 and 4895 in my 222.

onehitwonder · March 8, 2009, 08:10 PM

I may try a different powder. I've tried 2 so far. varget and h4198. different charges from min to just under max. 5 round groups of each charge. 23.7 gr varget cci 400 primer 50gr hornady v max seated to max oal n manual gave me a .790 at 100.

jdscholer · March 8, 2009, 08:15 PM

If you guys haven't yet, ya might try H-335 or BLC-2 in your 222s. They are almost identical in appearance and performance, measure great, and group great for my triple deuce. jd

kyle663 · March 8, 2009, 08:18 PM

if your hunting with it thats a good group. if your competing not so good. i dont comp shoot so .790 would be good for yote hunting. are you cleaning between groups?

onehitwonder · March 8, 2009, 08:27 PM

I only hunt with my guns but with that said I have taken to reloading and the desire for the perfect ammo for my gun has taken over. i do clean between each group use the same rest,targets,etc.let the gun cool between groups . and i measure outside to outside on my holes. the only thing i don't do is change bullets. i'm trying to use the same bullet for all my 22 cal rifles.

jdscholer · March 8, 2009, 08:31 PM

Oh yeah, as far as vertical stringing goes, sometimes your group is just that way for no good reason. Sometimes it might look like a question mark.

If the shots didn't string in sequence, it probably isn't barrel temp.. Maybe you were doing a great job of controlling side dispersion but not so much vertical--rifle bed pressure etc.

Sometimes shooting groups can drive ya crazy. I've shot my best group for a particular load, and never been able to do it again with that same load. Sometimes it just all comes together, and sometimes it don't.

jd

onehitwonder · March 8, 2009, 08:43 PM

I'ts the setbacks that drive me crazy.

kyle663 · March 8, 2009, 08:56 PM

we all want to shoot one hole groups but few ever do it consistantly, thats why if i can keep sub 1 inch groups consistantly i'm happy.

onehitwonder · March 8, 2009, 09:02 PM

do you subtract the bullet diameter from your group size if you measure outside to outside. .790 would end up being .566. kinda seems like cheating to me. mine dont even all touch and if thats concidered a half inch group I may have been driving myself over the edge for no reason. One hole isn't necessary for me, I can't hold that still with most guns, having a few touch and maybe 2 in one hole or cutting into eachother sounds good for me.

onehitwonder · March 8, 2009, 09:09 PM

my group

onehitwonder · March 8, 2009, 09:10 PM

sorry my best group

kyle663 · March 8, 2009, 09:10 PM

if you can keep it under 1 inch outside to outside, i'd be happy with that for hunting. i cant shoot as well out in the woods as i can from a bench anyway.

jdscholer · March 8, 2009, 10:12 PM

I measure mine center to center cause --- that's just how it's done. Doesn't hurt that it makes group size sound smaller.

Center to center measure gives a honest comparison of group size whether you're shooting a .50 cal. or .17.

One hole groups are cool, but either my barrel or my eyes will seldom do it any more.

jd

onehitwonder · March 9, 2009, 05:45 PM

I'll try that next time

crowbeaner · March 9, 2009, 10:00 PM

Vertical stringing is indicative of 2 problems; barrel heating and primer strike being uneven. Uniform your primer pockets by cutting them to the same depth with a tool made by Lyman or Sinclair, and make sure the barrel isn't touching the bags when you shoot.

ryalred · March 10, 2009, 04:54 PM

A great sight I found on vertical stringing:

http://www.6mmbr.com/verticaltips.html

onehitwonder · March 10, 2009, 05:02 PM

I just got a primer pocket uniformer but had not had a chance to use it since the brass was already preprimed. I will definately do that when I reload the next batch. I'm thinking I might start over from scratch. check out everything on my gun. reload the same rounds. etc etc. I did have some changes in my normal variables. 1. new bench rest n rear bag. 2.trigger job. 3. change in oal. Is it possible that when I pulled the tips of the ammo , was previously loaded, and replaced them and then set the new aol that maybe the brass changed somehow?

crowbeaner · March 10, 2009, 08:51 PM

Yup. If you pulled the bullets from the case and DIDN"T resize the neck you changed the neck tension (less) than when you originally loaded the ammo. This probably won't hurt anything, but with less tension your SD an ES will be higher or lower depending on the powder used and how much extra time of ignition the extra tension added to the original loading. This could possibly convert into vertical stringing; the main culprit is usually uneven primer pocket depth though.

Jim243 · March 10, 2009, 11:49 PM

Take your scope off and check the screws on the bases sounds like their lose.

W. C. Quantrill · March 11, 2009, 12:51 AM

Exactly what I was thinking...possibly loose scope mounts. That was what I discovered recently. Funny how things scatter when the screws are loose. Actually it isnt funny at all. Ahhh, one other thing. Scope rings should be torqued to about 25 or so inch pounds, varies by the brand and scope. If they are too tight, they can mess up (squeeze) your scope internals and that will cause them to string too.

March 8, 2009, 07:33 PM	#1
onehitwonder Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Posts: 97	hand load question what does it mean when you shoot your rifle and your group is not in a close together or at least round pattern but an almost straight line up and down? And the shots were not concecutive top to bottom they skipped around to make this line __________________ " Take your children hunting when they are young and they will hunt for less when they are older "

March 8, 2009, 07:37 PM	#2
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	could be flinching or jerking the trigger. not enough info to be sure. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

March 8, 2009, 07:43 PM	#3
onehitwonder Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Posts: 97	I usually don't flinch. 222 browning. My other groups with the same hand load were like they should be. The only thing I changed was the oal. I seated them to .02 .03 .04 off the lands in five round batches. went from 3/4 moa to over 1 moa and long groups instead of clusters. Good trigger on it 2lbs with new timney springs __________________ " Take your children hunting when they are young and they will hunt for less when they are older "

March 8, 2009, 07:50 PM	#4
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	changing the oal could do it. find the oal that groups the best and stay with it. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

March 8, 2009, 07:54 PM	#5
onehitwonder Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Posts: 97	thats what I figured. I may go from the other end of the spectrum. I loaded them to manual specs and was just trying to tighten em up a lil. I may start at max oal spec and move up instead of measuring my gun and moving down like I did __________________ " Take your children hunting when they are young and they will hunt for less when they are older "

March 8, 2009, 08:01 PM	#6
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	if you know which oal was gruoping best, try changing powder charge up or down that will have an influence on accuracy as well. just keep an eye out for excessive pressure signe when you start getting close to the max charge. might try different powders also. it all makes a difference. think i'm useing imr4198 and 4895 in my 222. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

March 8, 2009, 08:10 PM	#7
onehitwonder Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Posts: 97	I may try a different powder. I've tried 2 so far. varget and h4198. different charges from min to just under max. 5 round groups of each charge. 23.7 gr varget cci 400 primer 50gr hornady v max seated to max oal n manual gave me a .790 at 100. __________________ " Take your children hunting when they are young and they will hunt for less when they are older "

March 8, 2009, 08:15 PM	#8
jdscholer Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jefferson State Posts: 1,197	If you guys haven't yet, ya might try H-335 or BLC-2 in your 222s. They are almost identical in appearance and performance, measure great, and group great for my triple deuce. jd __________________ "We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher

March 8, 2009, 08:18 PM	#9
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	if your hunting with it thats a good group. if your competing not so good. i dont comp shoot so .790 would be good for yote hunting. are you cleaning between groups? __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

March 8, 2009, 08:27 PM	#10
onehitwonder Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Posts: 97	I only hunt with my guns but with that said I have taken to reloading and the desire for the perfect ammo for my gun has taken over. i do clean between each group use the same rest,targets,etc.let the gun cool between groups . and i measure outside to outside on my holes. the only thing i don't do is change bullets. i'm trying to use the same bullet for all my 22 cal rifles. __________________ " Take your children hunting when they are young and they will hunt for less when they are older "

March 8, 2009, 08:31 PM	#11
jdscholer Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jefferson State Posts: 1,197	Oh yeah, as far as vertical stringing goes, sometimes your group is just that way for no good reason. Sometimes it might look like a question mark. If the shots didn't string in sequence, it probably isn't barrel temp.. Maybe you were doing a great job of controlling side dispersion but not so much vertical--rifle bed pressure etc. Sometimes shooting groups can drive ya crazy. I've shot my best group for a particular load, and never been able to do it again with that same load. Sometimes it just all comes together, and sometimes it don't. jd __________________ "We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher

March 8, 2009, 08:43 PM	#12
onehitwonder Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Posts: 97	I'ts the setbacks that drive me crazy. __________________ " Take your children hunting when they are young and they will hunt for less when they are older "

March 8, 2009, 08:56 PM	#13
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	we all want to shoot one hole groups but few ever do it consistantly, thats why if i can keep sub 1 inch groups consistantly i'm happy. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

March 8, 2009, 09:02 PM	#14
onehitwonder Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Posts: 97	do you subtract the bullet diameter from your group size if you measure outside to outside. .790 would end up being .566. kinda seems like cheating to me. mine dont even all touch and if thats concidered a half inch group I may have been driving myself over the edge for no reason. One hole isn't necessary for me, I can't hold that still with most guns, having a few touch and maybe 2 in one hole or cutting into eachother sounds good for me. __________________ " Take your children hunting when they are young and they will hunt for less when they are older "

March 8, 2009, 09:10 PM	#16
onehitwonder Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Posts: 97	sorry my best group __________________ " Take your children hunting when they are young and they will hunt for less when they are older "

March 8, 2009, 10:12 PM	#18
jdscholer Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jefferson State Posts: 1,197	I measure mine center to center cause --- that's just how it's done. Doesn't hurt that it makes group size sound smaller. Center to center measure gives a honest comparison of group size whether you're shooting a .50 cal. or .17. One hole groups are cool, but either my barrel or my eyes will seldom do it any more. jd __________________ "We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher

March 9, 2009, 05:45 PM	#19
onehitwonder Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Posts: 97	I'll try that next time __________________ " Take your children hunting when they are young and they will hunt for less when they are older "

March 9, 2009, 10:00 PM	#20
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	Vertical stringing is indicative of 2 problems; barrel heating and primer strike being uneven. Uniform your primer pockets by cutting them to the same depth with a tool made by Lyman or Sinclair, and make sure the barrel isn't touching the bags when you shoot. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

March 10, 2009, 04:54 PM	#21
ryalred Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2008 Location: SE Oklahoma Posts: 491	A great sight I found on vertical stringing: http://www.6mmbr.com/verticaltips.html __________________ ryalred rifle & muzzleloader -- exhilarating bowhunting -- obsession reloading -- addicted

March 10, 2009, 05:02 PM	#22
onehitwonder Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Posts: 97	I just got a primer pocket uniformer but had not had a chance to use it since the brass was already preprimed. I will definately do that when I reload the next batch. I'm thinking I might start over from scratch. check out everything on my gun. reload the same rounds. etc etc. I did have some changes in my normal variables. 1. new bench rest n rear bag. 2.trigger job. 3. change in oal. Is it possible that when I pulled the tips of the ammo , was previously loaded, and replaced them and then set the new aol that maybe the brass changed somehow? __________________ " Take your children hunting when they are young and they will hunt for less when they are older "

March 10, 2009, 08:51 PM	#23
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	Yup. If you pulled the bullets from the case and DIDN"T resize the neck you changed the neck tension (less) than when you originally loaded the ammo. This probably won't hurt anything, but with less tension your SD an ES will be higher or lower depending on the powder used and how much extra time of ignition the extra tension added to the original loading. This could possibly convert into vertical stringing; the main culprit is usually uneven primer pocket depth though. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

March 10, 2009, 11:49 PM	#24
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Take your scope off and check the screws on the bases sounds like their lose.

March 11, 2009, 12:51 AM	#25
W. C. Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2008 Location: No Man's Land Posts: 354	Exactly what I was thinking...possibly loose scope mounts. That was what I discovered recently. Funny how things scatter when the screws are loose. Actually it isnt funny at all. Ahhh, one other thing. Scope rings should be torqued to about 25 or so inch pounds, varies by the brand and scope. If they are too tight, they can mess up (squeeze) your scope internals and that will cause them to string too. __________________ NRA Life Whittington Center Life