I GOTTA have one!!!! Help me out!!

[Powderman]

Hi, all!

I have been bitten hard by the BPCR bug. Specifically, I want a Sharps. I want one badly....and I will get one!

The only thing I am stuck on is caliber--and of course, the durability and capability of the rifle. Why do I want one? For stress relief!

Anything that roars, puts out a bunch of flame and smoke, and puts out a thick heavy bullet that will THUMP something HARD at longer ranges puts a smile on my face.

However, I also lean toward the traditional. I just LOVE the lines of the Sharps 1874 and 1875 rifles. Now, about caliber.....

I want something that will put out those big, fat slugs at good velocities. When I started my research, I was looking at and chose the .45-70 for my caliber. That, however, was before I read about the .45-120. Now, THAT'S a manly cartridge, especially when fired from a good hunk of American steel!!

Of course, I also want the "brag" factor--there's just something appealing about stuffing a 3 1/4 inch case into the breech and lighting off a shoulder fired howitzer....

So, here are my questions:

1. For those of you with Sharps rifles, how fast can I safely move those big slugs, out of the .45-70 and the .45-120? Now, I've seen some screaming velocities published--but, no rifle info.

2. Is there a real difference in the performance from the .45-120 and the .45-70, in the Sharps rifle?

3. Do you use smokeless powder in your Sharps rifles? What kind of performance are you getting?

4. If you cast your own, what kind of lube do you use? Do you use gas checked bullets?

5. What do you use for wads and fillers?

I look forward to the answers--thanks for all your help!!!

[Jim Watson]

I am hardly your best source, I shoot a .38-55 Winchester Single Shot and would consider a .40-65 tops. Friend of mine has a Webley double express rifle in .450 BPE and I am good for a pair and a half. I will usually flinch out the fourth shot. Maybe a .45 expert will come along. In the meanwhile...

The Conventional Wisdom is to recommend a .45-70. The .45x3.25" was never a Sharps factory chambering and has the reputation of being hard to load for with black and very difficult with smokeless. I read claims for good performance... but not by match shooters. I don't think I have ever seen one at a silhouette or midrange match. As for Long Range, the .45x2.1 (.45-70) is fine to 800 yards and can be made to work at 1000. There are some numbers of .45x2.4" (.45-90), .45x2.6 (.45-100), and .45x 2 7/8" (.45-110) in use at Long Range and even MS shooting. I know C. Sharps has rifles in stock with chambers not cut and listed "any .45" so they can be had without one-off custom work. (There are also some .40 calibers and experimentation with big .38s.)

There is little point in going beyond .45-70 for smokeless. There was a guy rechambering Miroku-Browning-Winchester 1886 repros for .45-90 and claiming some increase in velocity. Ken Waters did an article on the .45 RCBS, a .45x2.75" which was the longest they could get in a Rolling Block. He got less than 100 fps more than a top Ruger .45-70 load.

Your questions:

1. For those of you with Sharps rifles, how fast can I safely move those big slugs, out of the .45-70 and the .45-120? Now, I've seen some screaming velocities published--but, no rifle info.
With black powder, a 520 gr bullet at about 1250 fps from a .45-70. A .45x2 7/8" will do 1400 fps, doubt a .45x3.25" would add a whale of a lot.
With smokeless, a .45-70 at SAAMI max of 28,000 psi will shoot a 500 gr cast bullet at nearly 1500 fps, a .45-120 at well over 1600, from Accurate Arms data.
Kirk Bryan of Shiloh says his Sharps will take listed Ruger loads but recommends loading down a little and letting the long barrel make up the velocity. Probably 1700-1800 fps.

2. Is there a real difference in the performance from the .45-120 and the .45-70, in the Sharps rifle?
See above. Is 150-200 fps significant to you?

3. Do you use smokeless powder in your Sharps rifles? What kind of performance are you getting?
I used to load smokeless for Cowboy side matches. My little Winchester hasn't seen any smokeless in years. When I did, all I wanted was factory equivalent, it doesn't take a lot of power to ring a gong at 150-200 yards.

4. If you cast your own, what kind of lube do you use? Do you use gas checked bullets?
I cast bullets out of 20:1 foundry alloy and pan lube with SPG. NRA does not allow gas checks in BPCR competition. They are not needed with BP anyhow. Back in my CAS days, there were a very few decent brands of commercial cast that I used with smokeless, but the two best are out of business. Maybe there is somebody new in the game selling good cast rifle bullets. I know I would buy them if they were as good as what I can cast and at the same price as Sierra MK.

5. What do you use for wads and fillers?
I load a .030" Walters wad over the (compressed) black powder charge. I do not put grits, powdered plastic, or other non-gunpowder crap in my ammunition. You can get decent smokeless loads without fillers in .45-70.

P.S. Don't get sucked in by the Quigley fad. A Sharps military butt amplifies recoil and a 34" heavy barrel is poorly balanced and is somewhat subject to "fouling out" as bullet lube runs short near the muzzle. Friend of mine has a 34" .40-65 and he has to clean it every relay of a match to maintain accuracy.

P.P.S. Lots of good loading information at
http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/I...%20Loading.pdf

[Old Dragoon]

45-70 loaded with 70 Grns FFG or FFG, a .060 Wad over powder compressed so that the base of a Paul Jones 540 grn bullet just sits on the wad in Remington brass. NO CRIMP. (this allows the bullet to align in the bore). This load will let you reach out and touch the gong at 1000 yds. It is good up to that too. I have a Pedersoli Rolling Block and this cartridge just fits(pull hammer back off fullcock, insert cartridge, let hammer back to fullcock notch (Until I rework the hammer). You won't have this problem with a Sharps.

Also don't belittle the Pedersoli Sharps. It is the top of the line of the Italian MFG. Fit and finish are great and they shoot, Several matches are won with the Pedersoli Sharps and their RB rifles against the American makers rifles.

I have owned both a Shiloh Sharps and a Pedersoli Sharps.......the Pedersoli out shot the Shiloh on any given day. I kept the Pedersoli a long time, and sold the Shiloh shortly after I bought the Pedersoli. Wish I had the Pedersoli back.

[Powderman]

So, I get that the general consensus is to go with the .45-70.

But I like POWER! I know that the .45-70 is a thumper in its own right--but is the .45-120 that punishing?

The rifle I want to get will be spec'd out with a 30 inch heavy octagon barrel, and a shotgun-style stock. What do you think?

[Hawg]

How do you get 70 grs. of bp in a 45-70 case. Are you using a compression die or using Pyrodex? The original 45-70's were balloon head cases. Modern cases won't hold but 65 grs. without major compression and bp just don't compress that much without help. Pyro will tho.

[Jim Watson]

I like ACCURACY and COMFORT and have trouble following searches for noise and kick. It's your money.

I have loaded some .38-55 with the old factory load of 48 gr black in modern short, drawn brass and it is full to the case mouth, compressed the full seating depth of the bullet. With a die, not my soft bullet so expensive in time and labor. Don't see why you can't do that for .45-70.

Most of the old Sharps cartridges used paper patched bullets seated pretty shallow.

[MDman]

I am having the same problem as you are...
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=260583
As cool as it would be to have a 45-110 I think in going 45-70

[Old Dragoon]

Yes I use a compression die to compress the BP and the wad to where the paul Jones Bullet just sits on the wad with no crimp but seated to the crimp ring. It compresses and doesn't deform the case. This charge was weighed charge and then put in a powder measure and marked(happened to be just a bit more than the 70 grain measure on this particular measure. I use a Buffalo Arms drop tube to load the cases. I measured the bullet seat length and I set up the compression die to match that depth to the top of the wad. I bell the case just enough to start the bullet.

I will be loading 100 tomorrow evening.

[Powderman]

Don't get sucked in by the Quigley fad. A Sharps military butt amplifies recoil and a 34" heavy barrel is poorly balanced and is somewhat subject to "fouling out" as bullet lube runs short near the muzzle. Friend of mine has a 34" .40-65 and he has to clean it every relay of a match to maintain accura

But I wanna make the BIG booms!!!!

Seriously, your advice is well taken. While I will be getting a heavy octagon barrel, I will also be getting the rifle with a shotgun-style pistol gripped stock, and only a 30" barrel. Plenty long enough for me.

For you and Old Dragoon: When using a powder compression die, how much compression do you apply to the charge? And, what is the order of your wad column under the bullet?

[Jim Watson]

I use the compression die to seat the card wad on the powder and compress the charge to the bullet seating depth. Then seat the bullet down on the wad, leaving no airspace but not stressing the soft bullet. There are a lot of variables there on load, compression, and seating; each of which affects the others. There are guidelines and recommendations but you have to shoot the gun to see what works in that barrel.

I use only the .030" fibre wad over powder and the bullet seated to touch.
Some people put a piece of wax paper between the card wad and the bullet so there is no risk of the wad sticking to the base of the bullet and spoiling the shot. I don't see that as necessary, IF you wipe any bullet lube off the base of the bullets.
Some people put a piece of newpaper or tissue paper in the bottom of the case to diffuse the primer flash into the powder. (Magnum primers were once widely recommended for black, but they are much less common now, with some people going to over primer wads or pistol primers to ignite the load with less disturbance.)
Some of the great big cases need a lube wad or grease cookie under the bullet, between two dry card wads. Also used for paper patched bullets that carry no lube of their own. Has the advantage of taking up space in the excessively large cases so your .45-120 looks badass but doesn't kick as hard as you thought manly to start with.


A 30" barrel and shotgun butt is pretty much the default for BPCR. There are some longer barrels which give an advantage in sight radius, but very few rifle butts which have no redeeming qualities except style.

[Old Dragoon]

I forgot to mention cleaning the lube off the base of the bullet. You do this for two reasons, 1. like Jim said. and 2. so as not to let the wad stick to the bullet that may allow the bullet and wad to pull out of the brass upon seating(removal from seating die.)

I just loaded 80 45-70's R-P brass with the 538 Paul Jones bullet, over a .060 wad, over 70 Grns FFG Goex, with Winchester Rifle Primers.

Loaded 40 45-70 with PMC brass, 538 P.J. bullet, over .060 wad, over 70 grns FFFG Elephant(my last Elephant). Winchester Rifle primers.

Wow you sure go through powder fast when loading these big boys!

[crowbeaner]

I've been tinkering with the Lyman 330 gr. HP #457122 and just cast up a bunch. I'm thinking of sizing some down to .451 or .452 to fit the sabots in my ML. IMHO that any boomer over 45/90 is just wasting powder. IIRC the old 45/70 carbine load was 405 gr. over 55 gr. of FFG. Don't remember the MV but it sure was fun to shoot. A fellow at one of the local gun emporiums is shooting a 50/90 and he says that 10 rounds is enough to cause a flinch and I believe him. The 1874 Sharps is a beautiful rifle and I'd dearly love to own one but SWMBO says no. Oh, well. Hope this helps. CB.

[FL-Flinter]

The .50-140 will provide everything you're looking for and then some.