Snipers

[Jimro]

Ahhh.... I'm not really a 5.56/.223 shooter but as I remember things and going back almost 12+yrs, the Mk262 Mod 0 was loaded with the 75 A-Max, the Mk 262 Mod 1 used both clanitured and non clanitured 77SMK's loaded too 5.56 pressures in new primed LC cases by Black Hills, these came in 50rd white boxes. Black Hills also loaded a 80SMK coal 2.40ish at 5.56 pressures as well. There blue and red boxes were loaded to .223 pressures using new or once fired commercial case I forgot what color goes to what.

Mk262 Mod0 was loaded with the non-cannelure 77gr OTM (open tip match) projectile, source was Sierra 77 SMK and Nosler Custom Comp 77gr HPBT.

Mke 262 Mod 1 is loaded with the cannelure version of the 77gr SMK.

I shot a bunch of the Mod 0 stuff in 2007, it did have the "bullet pushed back into case" problem that crimping in the cannelure fixed.

Jimro

[Jimro]

Bart B.

I apologize that I misunderstood what you wrote.

You wrote:

The .30-06 was a competition round at its onset. The accuracy of its match ammo stayed the same from the 1920's (when the 172-gr. FMJBT bullet was developed) until the late 1950's when good HPBT match bullets became available. I think it's remarkable that the '06 maintained its best accuracy level in the 6 inch range at 600 yards for almost 40 years. The .308/7.62 started out in the 3 inch range and hasn't changed.

and:

The only way to find out how just the rifle and ammo shoot is to clamp the rifle in a free recoiling machine rest, load it, then shoot at least 20 shots. That eliminates all the holding and trigger pulling errors us humans make. Top ranked high power match rifle competitors take their rifle that shoots its ammo under 1/2 MOA all day long from a machine rest at 600 yards, lay down slung up in prone and in good conditions will shoot about 1.25 MOA at 600.

and:

You might think somewhat otherwise if you've ever watched a dozen people shoot the same rifle holding it against their shoulders as its fore end rested atop something on a bench top as the sit on a stool beside it. Then see their 100-yard 10-shot test groups range from 3/4 inch to almost 2 inches across all of them. With a rifle and ammo that shoots about 1/4 inch from a machine rest at 100 yards.

Groups fired over a rest or bench do give an indication of the rifle's accuracy plus the inaccuracies of the person shooting it; they add up together in one direction as well as cancel each other out in the other direction and it's nye impossible sometimes to separate the two.

Which is why I think that the AR-10 isn't the reason that the shooter in question shot a perfect score at 1,000. Every other shooter on the team was using the same load, in the same type of rifle, and only one posted a perfect score.

I do believe the AR platform is easier to shoot than an M1/M14 based on ergonomics, but ballistically the AR10 does nothing the M1A didn't do.

Jimro

[kraigwy]

Which is why I think that the AR-10 isn't the reason that the shooter in question shot a perfect score at 1,000. Every other shooter on the team was using the same load, in the same type of rifle, and only one posted a perfect score.

I do believe the AR platform is easier to shoot than an M1/M14 based on ergonomics, but ballistically the AR10 does nothing the M1A didn't do.

I don't know much about the AR-10, but I do know M1A's and know they shoot.

I shot a 1000 yard match next to the AMU at 29 Palms one year. They used M14s and the same ammo, The 4 man team shot a 799/800.

The poor kid who dropped a point caught holy hell from his team mates.

I like the M14/M1A. Been shooting since basic in '66, and shooting competition since 1977. They shoot no doubt.

But when you get 3 out of 4 cleaning the 1000 yard target, and the other shooting 199/200, then its the coach who gives the calls and the shooter that does the holding.

[Bart B.]

Without knowing the range conditions for each of those 4 team members winning the match and setting the record at last year's Nationals, who are we to suggest why one shot a clean and the others dropped a few points?

And coaches are like shooters; they ain't always perfect doing what they do best. What if, after a perfect sight correction was given by the coach for a condition change, the shooter fire the shot, made a perfect call but the down range cross wind gusted 1 mphor more faster a spliot second into the bullet's flight. That can put the bullet into the 9 ring when it gets to the target. If that happens twice in a 20 shot string at 1000 yards, you're down two points already. It happens at Camp Perry.

The typical west winds at the low end of Viale Range at Camp Perry have alwyas had less reading and sight doping issues than the high end. The NRA, years ago, blocked off the first 20 or so firing points as they were so close to the row of trees to the west, most of the high scores had been shot there as the wind blew over the bullet's trajectory paths. The first 10 firing points used now still have the least wind issues on Viale Range. What target number was that US Army Team on?

In a rifle team match, it's the coaches responsibility to keep the shots in the middle of the high scoring rings based on the range conditions and shot calls from the shooter. It's the shooters responsibility to shoot tiny groups and make good calls. And the shooter better make the sight changes the coach gives; even if he thinks or knows darned well it is the wrong thing to do.

[Clark]

Skip to 32:55 to 36:57 in this video and see 4 minutes of the US Marine Corps Base Quantico Virginia handloading sniper ammo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw1hZ0xLWiM


Same pic as uploaded below

[Phil McGrath]

Nowhere in the above video did I see or hear them state that Snipers used custom loaded ammo, I did hear the SNCOIC say that the requirements of a Sniper rifle is not the same as a Palma rifle.

Performance Testing is conducted on the firing line, by the best shooters in the Marine Corp. By Scout Snipers and by members of the Marine National Shooting Team.

WTBPWS, has a lot too and not enough hours to get it done, I doubt that they can supply every S/S and every NM Shooting Team Member with custom tuned ammo for every custom weapon they shoot. Capt. Young did say that all the performance data was sent back too the manufacture, and new ammo was to be made to meet that spec.

FWIW...

[Clark]

Phil McGrath
Nowhere in the above video did I see or hear them state that Snipers used custom loaded ammo,..

Phil,
They are weighing the primers, the bullets, the cases, the charges, and the loaded ammo. They are turning necks.
At 35:44 we hear a marine say, "Then we package up the rounds with the load name that we assign it, the date that we produced it, the gun that that ammo is actually for, and the quantity that is in that box."

What does it all mean?
1) It sounds like custom loaded ammo to me.
2) The part about the handloading it between 32:55 and 36:57

[Phil McGrath]

Correct that is custom reloading for a competition rifle, a sniper/combat rifle still has too be able to shoot even under the nastiest of field conditions and use what ever ammo is available, de-linked ammo if that's all that's available. Remember he also said the needs of a Sniper rifle are not the same as a Palma/Match rifle.

Ammo still needs to be robust in there construction as well. For example ammo that has had the necks turned could be easily knocked out of round or the bullet set/pushed back under field conditions. Not good for a sniper when he needs to make that shot count or if the ammo is bent off center?

The Marine Corp doesn't have the resources too develop/log/manufacture/store all the special ammo needed for every special purpose built weapon in there inventory. Sorry they can't, Marines shoot a lot of ammo during the shooting season. While they do the very best they can under the not so very best of conditions they have all they can do to supply the Big Marine Team with all there ammo needs. If they did they would be crushed under the weight of ammo production alone.

The reason for all the, R/D the Q/C checks with the tracking numbers that you see is all that info/data is logged then sent too a manufacture so the ammo can be duplicated and a whole lot more of it is made, then its issued to the shooter who needs it, when they need it.

If two rifles are built too the same standards and spec's and attention to detail its reasonable for both too shoot nearly the same if the same ammo is used for both rifles, a prime example of this would be FGMM it seems too be the ammo accuracy standard in most everyone's rifles, and its production made.

[Bart B.]

They are weighing the primers, the bullets, the cases, the charges, and the loaded ammo.

Proof they don't understand what counts for accuracy.

For example, how do they separate the weight of the priming compound from that of the primer's cup, anvil and sealer? What percent of a 7.26295-grain complete primer does each of its component parts have?

And they've flunked grade school math if they cannot add up the combined weight of each component and have to weigh each loaded round.

Do they separate components by weight and use only one weight of each for a lot of ammo?

I didn't see them checking the ammo for bullet runout. Do they make 'em all with zero in that area?

I consider that video a marketing hype of extreme magnitude. Especially when to many folks have produced ammo shooting sub 3/4 MOA groups at 1000 yards with only the powder charge being weighed and with new, unprepped cases, too.

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

@clark, Phil McGrath is right, the hand loads are mainly for competitions and such. I won't say that some don't get used in the battlefield, but most come in a pretty white box like the ones I showed in an earlier thread. I assure you these are made by Federal.

[kraigwy]

When I attended the Army Marksmanship Unit's Sniper School I just to wonder into the reloading room.

Yes the AMU was reloading ammo, but it wasn't for sniper rifles, it was for their marksmanship teams. I was hanging around not because I was looking for some super sneaky sniper loads, I was looking for advise on loading for my own High Power Shooting I was involved with.

Got some good info too

But when I went back to my unit we were using M1C/Ds and M-72 ammo. When I chose a round for my LE sniper rifle it was M193.

I left my reloading to my match shooting just as the military does now.