Squad formation question

Firepower! · February 14, 2009, 02:15 PM

Hello
I need some expert advice from fellow TFL members who have been marines or special services. In a sqaud of eight I have following weapons for my guards:
Mp5
Mp5 sd
M4a1
AkSU74
4 ak47s

I want to know good is this set up for a guard that moves with me in cars. What would you suggest different? Thanks.

B. Lahey · February 14, 2009, 02:24 PM

You still haven't picked up that PK?

I'm no expert, but something belt-fed (PKM, M240, M2, etc...) for a tail-gunner in the last vehicle seems like it couldn't hurt.

Or would heavy weapons draw too much attention?

kraigwy · February 14, 2009, 03:14 PM

How about getting a copy of FM 21-75, Individual Soldier and Patroling,

It will answer your questions.

Firepower! · February 14, 2009, 03:26 PM

Lahey
PK is picked up but since its belt fed I cannot get license for it to take around with me. In Pakistan guns may not be open carry.

fal308 · February 25, 2009, 09:57 AM

Everything you have listed is for up close work. Do you have a need for anything heavier-hitting? Something to take out concealed targets at 100+ meters? Something like a Socom , HK51 or similar?

David Hineline · February 25, 2009, 12:30 PM

I do not fit your criteria for a response but having a MP5SD I would not use a weapon that has the ballistic equal of a .380 ACP pistol. The SD is large and for taking out things in a stealth mannor. Not for defense, if you have need of a defensive weapon than your stealth is already blown.

Bartholomew Roberts · February 25, 2009, 04:44 PM

What roles are the MP5s serving? What is the point in having a single SD?

Personally, from both a training and a logistics standpoint, I would think standardizing on a single type of weapon would probably offer a lot of advantages.

Bartholomew Roberts · February 25, 2009, 04:45 PM

What roles are the MP5s serving? What is the point in having a single SD?

Personally, from both a training and a logistics standpoint, I would think standardizing on a single type of weapon would probably offer a lot of advantages. (Also, neither Marine nor special service member).

PTK · February 25, 2009, 05:52 PM

That you need that many armed men around, I do not envy your life, friend.

IZinterrogator · February 25, 2009, 09:27 PM

Okay, we're dealing with a mounted patrol here, for simplicity's sake. I see a few issues here. First, the 21 foot rule for how close you let someone get to you on foot becomes a 100 meter rule when mounted. The MP5s won't have enough energy after traveling 100 meters to punch holes through laminated windshields or sheet metal. Get rid of those first.

Second, your AKSU-74 is shooting a 52 grain bullet that has an air pocket in the nose (if you're using surplus ammo) through an eight inch barrel. Lower velocity, lower penetration. Lose it.

Third, the limitations of the M4 with its shorter barrel and military ammo are legendary here on TFL, and I personally tried to trade in my M249 SAWs for M240Bs during my last Iraq tour due to the 5.56mm's limited effectiveness from a short barrel in a mounted role. Ditch the M4A1.

Now we have 4 AK-47s left. I'm assuming because you are using them in vehicles you got the folding stock, so good there. However, not enough energy for my taste to punch into an engine that well. So, if you have the cash, I'd trade in everything for eight FAL carbines with folding stocks. If not, I'd keep the AK-47s and get four FAL carbines to replace the other weapons. The 7.62x51mm will hit harder and pierce better than the 7.62x39mm. And always use armor-piercing ammunition in weapons used primarily around vehicles. It helps to cut through windshields and vehicle bodies.

And just because we're not Marines doesn't mean us Army guys don't know anything about weapons selection and patrolling.

2amencw · February 25, 2009, 10:48 PM

an autoloading 12 gauge with breneke slugs and copper plated "00" buck will also wreak havoc on a pursueing vehicle or ambush fodder.

freakshow10mm · February 25, 2009, 11:58 PM

Ditch the MP5 and get something with better terminal ballistics.

Firepower! · February 27, 2009, 02:30 AM

Ditched:

MP5SD, M4A1 and Krinkov

Retained:

One Mp5 for the mobile guard who goes indoor with me if needed, and 4 Ak47s. They are loaded with AP bullets.

Replaced:
MP5SD with a G3
M4A1 with USAS12 loaded with drum of slugs

Undecided on what to replace Krinkov with. Perhaps another G3? Or should I reatin M4 and ditch this for CQC.

freakshow10mm · February 27, 2009, 09:29 AM

The M4 fills a better roll for CQB than the G3. More capacity, lighter, lighter recoil.

FAL vs M4 is a trade off. You get better ballistics at the price of lower capacity, increased recoil, and the need to train your team on the weapon.

PTK · February 27, 2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

USAS12 loaded with drum of slugs

There's not much that won't stop.

freakshow10mm · February 27, 2009, 01:38 PM

Interesting that a lawyer needs a "squad".

fal308 · February 27, 2009, 02:36 PM

Freakshow, Firepower lives in Pakistan

FrontSight · February 27, 2009, 03:05 PM

Firepower, if I get laid off from hedge tax accounting, can I come work for you?

Firepower! · February 28, 2009, 05:27 AM

yes

Ridge_Runner_5 · March 1, 2009, 04:09 AM

Gecko45, is that you??

PTK · March 1, 2009, 02:50 PM

Ridge_Runner_5

Believe it or not, Firepower! is legit.

David Hineline · March 1, 2009, 11:27 PM

Of course one should always take into consideration that your new formed squad all have incompatible weapons system with ammunition that will not interchange.

FrontSight · March 9, 2009, 04:33 PM

Awesome, if I do get laid off, I'm there, dude!

hknut · March 9, 2009, 11:37 PM

Get some SBR .308's Works at distance and REALLY well up close! FAL,s Socom's or HK 91's. and carry a BF hk51 in a ambush vehicle to lay down some suppressive fire.

IZ-Hooah.

Willie Lowman · March 12, 2009, 12:13 PM

How often does your squad train? What is their level of experience?

It seems risky to be changing out their weapons at a moments notice.

February 14, 2009, 02:15 PM	#1
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Squad formation question Hello I need some expert advice from fellow TFL members who have been marines or special services. In a sqaud of eight I have following weapons for my guards: Mp5 Mp5 sd M4a1 AkSU74 4 ak47s I want to know good is this set up for a guard that moves with me in cars. What would you suggest different? Thanks.

February 14, 2009, 02:24 PM	#2
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	You still haven't picked up that PK? I'm no expert, but something belt-fed (PKM, M240, M2, etc...) for a tail-gunner in the last vehicle seems like it couldn't hurt. Or would heavy weapons draw too much attention? __________________ "A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards." -George Orwell

February 14, 2009, 03:14 PM	#3
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	How about getting a copy of FM 21-75, Individual Soldier and Patroling, It will answer your questions. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

February 25, 2009, 09:27 PM	#10
IZinterrogator Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2004 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,457	Okay, we're dealing with a mounted patrol here, for simplicity's sake. I see a few issues here. First, the 21 foot rule for how close you let someone get to you on foot becomes a 100 meter rule when mounted. The MP5s won't have enough energy after traveling 100 meters to punch holes through laminated windshields or sheet metal. Get rid of those first. Second, your AKSU-74 is shooting a 52 grain bullet that has an air pocket in the nose (if you're using surplus ammo) through an eight inch barrel. Lower velocity, lower penetration. Lose it. Third, the limitations of the M4 with its shorter barrel and military ammo are legendary here on TFL, and I personally tried to trade in my M249 SAWs for M240Bs during my last Iraq tour due to the 5.56mm's limited effectiveness from a short barrel in a mounted role. Ditch the M4A1. Now we have 4 AK-47s left. I'm assuming because you are using them in vehicles you got the folding stock, so good there. However, not enough energy for my taste to punch into an engine that well. So, if you have the cash, I'd trade in everything for eight FAL carbines with folding stocks. If not, I'd keep the AK-47s and get four FAL carbines to replace the other weapons. The 7.62x51mm will hit harder and pierce better than the 7.62x39mm. And always use armor-piercing ammunition in weapons used primarily around vehicles. It helps to cut through windshields and vehicle bodies. And just because we're not Marines doesn't mean us Army guys don't know anything about weapons selection and patrolling. __________________ "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!” - Samuel Adams Last edited by IZinterrogator; February 25, 2009 at 09:38 PM.

February 25, 2009, 10:48 PM	#11
2amencw Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2008 Posts: 143	patrol weapons an autoloading 12 gauge with breneke slugs and copper plated "00" buck will also wreak havoc on a pursueing vehicle or ambush fodder.

February 14, 2009, 03:26 PM	#4
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Lahey PK is picked up but since its belt fed I cannot get license for it to take around with me. In Pakistan guns may not be open carry.

February 25, 2009, 09:57 AM	#5
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Everything you have listed is for up close work. Do you have a need for anything heavier-hitting? Something to take out concealed targets at 100+ meters? Something like a Socom , HK51 or similar?

February 25, 2009, 12:30 PM	#6
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	I do not fit your criteria for a response but having a MP5SD I would not use a weapon that has the ballistic equal of a .380 ACP pistol. The SD is large and for taking out things in a stealth mannor. Not for defense, if you have need of a defensive weapon than your stealth is already blown.

February 25, 2009, 04:44 PM	#7
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	What roles are the MP5s serving? What is the point in having a single SD? Personally, from both a training and a logistics standpoint, I would think standardizing on a single type of weapon would probably offer a lot of advantages.

February 25, 2009, 04:45 PM	#8
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	What roles are the MP5s serving? What is the point in having a single SD? Personally, from both a training and a logistics standpoint, I would think standardizing on a single type of weapon would probably offer a lot of advantages. (Also, neither Marine nor special service member).

February 25, 2009, 05:52 PM	#9
PTK Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2008 Posts: 442	That you need that many armed men around, I do not envy your life, friend.

February 25, 2009, 11:58 PM	#12
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Ditch the MP5 and get something with better terminal ballistics.

February 27, 2009, 02:30 AM	#13
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Ditched: MP5SD, M4A1 and Krinkov Retained: One Mp5 for the mobile guard who goes indoor with me if needed, and 4 Ak47s. They are loaded with AP bullets. Replaced: MP5SD with a G3 M4A1 with USAS12 loaded with drum of slugs Undecided on what to replace Krinkov with. Perhaps another G3? Or should I reatin M4 and ditch this for CQC.

February 27, 2009, 09:29 AM	#14
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	The M4 fills a better roll for CQB than the G3. More capacity, lighter, lighter recoil. FAL vs M4 is a trade off. You get better ballistics at the price of lower capacity, increased recoil, and the need to train your team on the weapon.

February 27, 2009, 01:38 PM	#16
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Interesting that a lawyer needs a "squad".

February 27, 2009, 02:36 PM	#17
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Freakshow, Firepower lives in Pakistan

February 27, 2009, 03:05 PM	#18
FrontSight Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 1,712	Firepower, if I get laid off from hedge tax accounting, can I come work for you? __________________ To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw

February 28, 2009, 05:27 AM	#19
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	yes

March 1, 2009, 04:09 AM	#20
Ridge_Runner_5 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,925	Gecko45, is that you??

March 1, 2009, 02:50 PM	#21
PTK Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2008 Posts: 442	Ridge_Runner_5 Believe it or not, Firepower! is legit.

March 1, 2009, 11:27 PM	#22
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Of course one should always take into consideration that your new formed squad all have incompatible weapons system with ammunition that will not interchange.

March 9, 2009, 04:33 PM	#23
FrontSight Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 1,712	Awesome, if I do get laid off, I'm there, dude! __________________ To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw

March 9, 2009, 11:37 PM	#24
hknut Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2005 Location: Olympia, Wa. Posts: 535	Get some SBR .308's Works at distance and REALLY well up close! FAL,s Socom's or HK 91's. and carry a BF hk51 in a ambush vehicle to lay down some suppressive fire. IZ-Hooah. __________________ "Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars" Walk softly and carry a big SIG.

March 12, 2009, 12:13 PM	#25
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	How often does your squad train? What is their level of experience? It seems risky to be changing out their weapons at a moments notice. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens