Shotgun Patterning Questions

mike72712 · June 8, 2009, 04:01 PM

I have the following Remingtons and am interested in patterning the guns to see how they treat different sizes of shot:

(all 12 GA)
-- an 870 Express 28" Remchoke
-- a Wingmaster short barrel full cylinder home defense
(either 18", 20" -- didn't measure it, so not sure)
(and at least I THINK it's full cylinder -- there are no choke threads...)
-- an 1100 28" Remchoke
-- and soon to arrive a new 870 Wingmaster Classic Trap w/30" barrel & Remchoke

and the following chokes:
Briley basic extended CYL/SKT/IC/M/FULL
RemChoke OEM SKT/M/FULL

First question as I'm a semi-noob, and kind of unrelated to patterning per se -- but can I shoot slugs from a gun w/either an internal or extended choke, or just from the the non threaded short barrel Wingmaster? I don't want the gun to blow up in my face...

As to patterning -- if I'm using the same size shot in both 28" guns using the same chokes, will they pattern similarly? Or should I pattern both the 870 Express and the 1100?

(I'm assuming that the short HD gun and the Trap gun will be different due to the barrel length and/or choke.)

Will the RemChokes pattern differently than the Briley external chokes?

I don't mind shooting them in all combinations, it's just time and ammo, but if it's completely unnecessary -- I'd rather just go shoot trap or skeet...

Thanks,
Mike

hogdogs · June 8, 2009, 04:11 PM

Quote:

(and at least I THINK it's full cylinder -- there are no choke threads...)

Could be any fixed choke constriction... should be marked on barrel...

Quote:

First question as I'm a semi-noob, and kind of unrelated to patterning per se -- but can I shoot slugs from a gun w/either an internal or extended choke, or just from the the non threaded short barrel Wingmaster? I don't want the gun to blow up in my face...

A slug can be fired from any choke... MOD or IMP. MOD usually is best results.

Quote:

As to patterning -- if I'm using the same size shot in both 28" guns using the same chokes, will they pattern similarly? Or should I pattern both the 870 Express and the 1100?

Pattern both... 2 identical 870 barrels made a week apart could have a little different pattern...

Quote:

(I'm assuming that the short HD gun and the Trap gun will be different due to the barrel length and/or choke.)

Different choke way different pattern... barrel length will not give a noticeable difference in and of itself as shot spread is based on inches of spread for yards traveled so a 10 inch shorter barrel will not account for a whole lot of variance.

Quote:

Will the RemChokes pattern differently than the Briley external chokes?

Briley being a high quality very precise tube will likely perform a bit better than the super high production Rem tubes. I buy cheap crap but the dust dove shooters like 'em...

Hope this helps... redneck info should only be considered worth what you pay for it

Brent

oneounceload · June 8, 2009, 04:14 PM

Pattern each gun independently - while they might pattern similarly, each gun is different.

I'm assuming by "full cylinder" you mean a cylinder bored barrel, (i.e. no choke).

Remington's chokes were probably made by Briley - mine were for my 28 gauge 1100. you will need to try them to see how they work in your gun.

Whatever the chokes say, patterning will determine whether they are accurately marked.

hogdogs · June 8, 2009, 04:22 PM

Well, crap the bed... I didn't know Briley was contractor for Rem... will be more careful what I say in the future...
Brent

mike72712 · June 8, 2009, 04:36 PM

Thanks guys -- yes, I do mean cylinder bored barrel. However, it doesn't say what choke level it is. Should I then assume it's full cylinder since it's an 18ish" barrel?

And I guess I'll do them all -- doesn't hurt anything but the side of a hill and some posterboard :-)

oneounceload · June 8, 2009, 04:47 PM

No, cylinder bore is exactly that, NO choke, let alone full.

Hogdogs - Briley is THE major OEM of choke tubes for just about everybody, even a lot of the European guns

Cerick · June 8, 2009, 05:07 PM

Cylinder bore is not NO choke. Firing the gun without a choke is probably a bad idea. The choke that came with my 870 says cylinder bore on it. It is removable.

hogdogs · June 8, 2009, 05:08 PM

What OOL is saying is this... A cylinder bore is not tapered down... all other muzzle ends are tapered down thus choking the diameter down, Hence the word "choke". It really is in error to say "cylinder choke" it is actually more accurately a "cylinder bore". Or to use the full terminology of a choke would be "moderately choked bore" "improved moderate choked bore" "fully choked bore"...

Brent

hogdogs · June 8, 2009, 05:10 PM

Cerick, That is incorrect info... A screw in choke "tube" should always be installed if the barrel is threaded. Even if it is a NON CHOKED cylinder bore tube.
Don't confuse the new guy... These screw in tubes are a new item only having been around under 30 years.
Brent

Cerick · June 8, 2009, 05:24 PM

Whats incorrect about what I said?

Quote:

Cylinder bore is not NO choke. Firing the gun without a choke is probably a bad idea. The choke that came with my 870 says cylinder bore on it. It is removable.

hogdogs · June 8, 2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Cylinder bore is not NO choke

This part is 100% incorrect. Not all barrels have the threads for the choke "tubes". But all threaded barrels for choke "tubes" should have one installed as I said before. You can even buy a cylinder bore, NOT CHOKED, threaded tube. It will measure 0.729 inch which is NOT CHOKED... every other "choke" will be less diameter. Before the "tubes" were invented you needed one barrel for each bore restriction you wished to shoot from cylinder (NOT CHOKED) to a full or X2 turkey full... Now you just uncrew a "TUBE" (choke is not the accurate word) and install a different "tube" of a different "restriction" or the amount it is "choked down"...
Hope this clears it up for you.
Brent

hogdogs · June 8, 2009, 05:50 PM

From...
http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTec.../9-Jun-03.html
[QUOTE]CHOKING ON CHOKES

Technoid, I was wondering if you would put something on your forum
page a little more extensive about chokes. Specificaly about the
dimentions. I'm curious about the diameters and what fits where.

I grew up apparently in your neck of the woods (near Kinsgton, I
noticed the 914 area code mentioned and the references to New Paltz in
some of your forums) and have gunned for most of my years, but only
really ever knew about Full, Modified, & Improved chokes. I see a
lot of talk about skeet and now light/heavy modified and don't really
know where this all fits in dimentionally or effectively on the shot
patterns.

I'm probably going to by at least one shotgun in the next year (likely
a 20) and would like to bring myself up to speed with the rest of the
world on what's going on with chokes before I do. What I've read
from your forums is informative thus far, thanks for helping out we
"unl! earned" types. It is greatly appreciated.

c.j.

Dear C.J.,

Here's the deal with chokes: Chokes are measured by the percentage of
shot they put into a 30" circle at 40 yards. They aren't measured by
what is stamped on the barrel or by any particular choke dimensions in
thousandths of an inch. It's performance that's the measure.

Problem is that choke performance differs with each shell. I can
absolutely guarantee you that I can take a gun with a "modified" choke
and get improved cylinder (50% into a 30" circle at 40 yards),
modified (60%) and full (70+%) performance out of it by just changing
shells.

So it gets confusing because the standard is a moving target (please
note clever pun produced when fueled with only one cup of coffee).

Look at choke another way. The most open choke (cylinder bore) is no
choke at all. Just a tube. The tightest usual choke is full, excluding
some of the turkey chokes meant for special tight performance with a
very limited selection of shells. Cylinder bore throws about the same
pattern at 20 yards that full choke throws at 40 yards. Pretty close
anyway. All other normal chokes fit in between Cylinder Bore and Full,
or performance between 20 to 40 yards.

As a VERY rough rule of thumb, the following all produce exactly the
same pattern and pattern size at the particular distance mentioned:

Cylinder Bore 20 yards
Improved Cylinder 25 yards
Modified 30 yards
Improved Modified 35 yards
Full 40 yards

In order to sell more chokes and cater to a perceived need,
manufacturers have added some in between chokes like Skeet (in between
Cylinder Bore and Improved Cylinder) and Light Modified/skeet 2 (in
between Improved Cylinder and Modified).

Generally accepted (whatever that means in the unregulated,
unstandardized, un-everything world of choke designations) USA choke
dimensions in the 12 gauge are:

Cylinder Bore .000"
Skeet .005"
Improved Cylinder .010"
Light Modified (Sk 2) .015"
Modified .020"
Improved Modified .025"
Light Full .030"
Full .035"
X-full .040"

Note how cleverly there is a choke name for each and every .005"
constriction. This is meant to sell a lot of chokes and it does. If a
shooter thinks that a Light Modified gives him exactly the pattern he
wants at 27.5 yards (midway between IC and Mod) and if he thinks he
can actually judge the distance difference between 25 and 27.5 yards
on something flying through the air, well then there's someone who
will sell him what he wants. That makes everyone happy.

mike72712 · June 8, 2009, 08:15 PM

Thanks for all the comments!

Yes -- I know that if you have a threaded barrel, you have to use at minimum a cylinder choke. All of my 870s take RemChokes except for the old short barrel WM -- which I did find out was a modified barrel.

As it is hot and muggy here, I only did the 18" WM in slug, OO, #4 and #7.5 and then called it quits. I'll compare the #7 1/2 shot to the 28" Rem 1100 w/modified RemChoke I previously patterned and see how it differs. I shoot at 5 yds, 10 yds, 20 yds, 30 yds, and 40 yds. The 1100 (at most) would be used exclusively for skeet or sporting clays -- so I'm not going to mess w/anything larger.

I missed the slug at 30 yds twice, but I doubt I'd ever be shooting a slug w/that gun at that range. I'll try it w/one of the longer barrels later. I was still pretty accurate w/the OO and #4.

Next up will probably be the 1100 w/#7 1/2 using all 5 of the Briley extended chokes. Then, at least both of those pieces will be fully patterned.

Then the WM Trap w/the 5 extended Brileys and #7 1/2 shot, and then the 870 Express w/the slugs/larger shot, etc. and the 3 sizes of RemChoke I have.

This is a little more fun for me than pistol range shooting, as there's an extra purpose to see how the guns shoot -- not just aiming.

Mike

SumToy Custom Barrel · June 8, 2009, 09:05 PM

mike72712
I would shoot the 1100 and the 870 with all chokes. I have saw with some of our target chokes that they would blow a hole in 95% of the guns but have run across a few barrels that they just look like a bird gun.

The big thing with the chokes is what do you want to do with the gun. You can go with the over the counter stuff that is better then the stock chokes. Then you can go into the custom stuff.

mike72712 · June 8, 2009, 10:07 PM

The 1100, I'm just going to pattern w/the Briley extended chokes, as those would be the only ones I'll use w/the gun. (I'll keep the mod RemChoke that came w/it in the barrel when not in use, JIC I fired it w/o the Brileys so as to not screw up the threads.)

The 870 Wingmaster Trap, I'll just pattern again w/the extended Brileys, as those are what I'd use w/that gun. The three "trap" RemChokes that come w/that gun I won't use. I'll just keep one in there "in case" as w/the above.

The 870 Express, I'm going to pattern the skeet/mod/full RemChokes, but not the Brileys -- as I'd never use those w/that gun. I'd be shooting a variety of ammo w/that gun (buck, slugs, etc.) But w/the 1100 and the WM Trap, I'd only be using 7 1/2 and 8 1/2 target shot, etc.

June 8, 2009, 04:01 PM	#1
mike72712 Member Join Date: May 1, 2009 Posts: 18	Shotgun Patterning Questions I have the following Remingtons and am interested in patterning the guns to see how they treat different sizes of shot: (all 12 GA) -- an 870 Express 28" Remchoke -- a Wingmaster short barrel full cylinder home defense (either 18", 20" -- didn't measure it, so not sure) (and at least I THINK it's full cylinder -- there are no choke threads...) -- an 1100 28" Remchoke -- and soon to arrive a new 870 Wingmaster Classic Trap w/30" barrel & Remchoke and the following chokes: Briley basic extended CYL/SKT/IC/M/FULL RemChoke OEM SKT/M/FULL First question as I'm a semi-noob, and kind of unrelated to patterning per se -- but can I shoot slugs from a gun w/either an internal or extended choke, or just from the the non threaded short barrel Wingmaster? I don't want the gun to blow up in my face... As to patterning -- if I'm using the same size shot in both 28" guns using the same chokes, will they pattern similarly? Or should I pattern both the 870 Express and the 1100? (I'm assuming that the short HD gun and the Trap gun will be different due to the barrel length and/or choke.) Will the RemChokes pattern differently than the Briley external chokes? I don't mind shooting them in all combinations, it's just time and ammo, but if it's completely unnecessary -- I'd rather just go shoot trap or skeet... Thanks, Mike

June 8, 2009, 05:50 PM	#12
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	From... http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTec.../9-Jun-03.html [QUOTE]CHOKING ON CHOKES Technoid, I was wondering if you would put something on your forum page a little more extensive about chokes. Specificaly about the dimentions. I'm curious about the diameters and what fits where. I grew up apparently in your neck of the woods (near Kinsgton, I noticed the 914 area code mentioned and the references to New Paltz in some of your forums) and have gunned for most of my years, but only really ever knew about Full, Modified, & Improved chokes. I see a lot of talk about skeet and now light/heavy modified and don't really know where this all fits in dimentionally or effectively on the shot patterns. I'm probably going to by at least one shotgun in the next year (likely a 20) and would like to bring myself up to speed with the rest of the world on what's going on with chokes before I do. What I've read from your forums is informative thus far, thanks for helping out we "unl! earned" types. It is greatly appreciated. c.j. Dear C.J., Here's the deal with chokes: Chokes are measured by the percentage of shot they put into a 30" circle at 40 yards. They aren't measured by what is stamped on the barrel or by any particular choke dimensions in thousandths of an inch. It's performance that's the measure. Problem is that choke performance differs with each shell. I can absolutely guarantee you that I can take a gun with a "modified" choke and get improved cylinder (50% into a 30" circle at 40 yards), modified (60%) and full (70+%) performance out of it by just changing shells. So it gets confusing because the standard is a moving target (please note clever pun produced when fueled with only one cup of coffee). Look at choke another way. The most open choke (cylinder bore) is no choke at all. Just a tube. The tightest usual choke is full, excluding some of the turkey chokes meant for special tight performance with a very limited selection of shells. Cylinder bore throws about the same pattern at 20 yards that full choke throws at 40 yards. Pretty close anyway. All other normal chokes fit in between Cylinder Bore and Full, or performance between 20 to 40 yards. As a VERY rough rule of thumb, the following all produce exactly the same pattern and pattern size at the particular distance mentioned: Cylinder Bore 20 yards Improved Cylinder 25 yards Modified 30 yards Improved Modified 35 yards Full 40 yards In order to sell more chokes and cater to a perceived need, manufacturers have added some in between chokes like Skeet (in between Cylinder Bore and Improved Cylinder) and Light Modified/skeet 2 (in between Improved Cylinder and Modified). Generally accepted (whatever that means in the unregulated, unstandardized, un-everything world of choke designations) USA choke dimensions in the 12 gauge are: Cylinder Bore .000" Skeet .005" Improved Cylinder .010" Light Modified (Sk 2) .015" Modified .020" Improved Modified .025" Light Full .030" Full .035" X-full .040" Note how cleverly there is a choke name for each and every .005" constriction. This is meant to sell a lot of chokes and it does. If a shooter thinks that a Light Modified gives him exactly the pattern he wants at 27.5 yards (midway between IC and Mod) and if he thinks he can actually judge the distance difference between 25 and 27.5 yards on something flying through the air, well then there's someone who will sell him what he wants. That makes everyone happy. Last edited by hogdogs; June 8, 2009 at 05:56 PM.

June 8, 2009, 08:15 PM	#13
mike72712 Member Join Date: May 1, 2009 Posts: 18	Thanks for all the comments! Yes -- I know that if you have a threaded barrel, you have to use at minimum a cylinder choke. All of my 870s take RemChokes except for the old short barrel WM -- which I did find out was a modified barrel. As it is hot and muggy here, I only did the 18" WM in slug, OO, #4 and #7.5 and then called it quits. I'll compare the #7 1/2 shot to the 28" Rem 1100 w/modified RemChoke I previously patterned and see how it differs. I shoot at 5 yds, 10 yds, 20 yds, 30 yds, and 40 yds. The 1100 (at most) would be used exclusively for skeet or sporting clays -- so I'm not going to mess w/anything larger. I missed the slug at 30 yds twice, but I doubt I'd ever be shooting a slug w/that gun at that range. I'll try it w/one of the longer barrels later. I was still pretty accurate w/the OO and #4. Next up will probably be the 1100 w/#7 1/2 using all 5 of the Briley extended chokes. Then, at least both of those pieces will be fully patterned. Then the WM Trap w/the 5 extended Brileys and #7 1/2 shot, and then the 870 Express w/the slugs/larger shot, etc. and the 3 sizes of RemChoke I have. This is a little more fun for me than pistol range shooting, as there's an extra purpose to see how the guns shoot -- not just aiming. Mike Last edited by mike72712; June 8, 2009 at 08:23 PM.

June 8, 2009, 04:14 PM	#3
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Pattern each gun independently - while they might pattern similarly, each gun is different. I'm assuming by "full cylinder" you mean a cylinder bored barrel, (i.e. no choke). Remington's chokes were probably made by Briley - mine were for my 28 gauge 1100. you will need to try them to see how they work in your gun. Whatever the chokes say, patterning will determine whether they are accurately marked.

June 8, 2009, 04:22 PM	#4
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Well, crap the bed... I didn't know Briley was contractor for Rem... will be more careful what I say in the future... Brent

June 8, 2009, 04:36 PM	#5
mike72712 Member Join Date: May 1, 2009 Posts: 18	Thanks guys -- yes, I do mean cylinder bored barrel. However, it doesn't say what choke level it is. Should I then assume it's full cylinder since it's an 18ish" barrel? And I guess I'll do them all -- doesn't hurt anything but the side of a hill and some posterboard :-)

June 8, 2009, 04:47 PM	#6
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	No, cylinder bore is exactly that, NO choke, let alone full. Hogdogs - Briley is THE major OEM of choke tubes for just about everybody, even a lot of the European guns

June 8, 2009, 05:07 PM	#7
Cerick Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2008 Location: 973, NJ Posts: 345	Cylinder bore is not NO choke. Firing the gun without a choke is probably a bad idea. The choke that came with my 870 says cylinder bore on it. It is removable.

June 8, 2009, 05:08 PM	#8
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	What OOL is saying is this... A cylinder bore is not tapered down... all other muzzle ends are tapered down thus choking the diameter down, Hence the word "choke". It really is in error to say "cylinder choke" it is actually more accurately a "cylinder bore". Or to use the full terminology of a choke would be "moderately choked bore" "improved moderate choked bore" "fully choked bore"... Brent

June 8, 2009, 05:10 PM	#9
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Cerick, That is incorrect info... A screw in choke "tube" should always be installed if the barrel is threaded. Even if it is a NON CHOKED cylinder bore tube. Don't confuse the new guy... These screw in tubes are a new item only having been around under 30 years. Brent

June 8, 2009, 09:05 PM	#14
SumToy Custom Barrel Member Join Date: October 26, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 63	mike72712 I would shoot the 1100 and the 870 with all chokes. I have saw with some of our target chokes that they would blow a hole in 95% of the guns but have run across a few barrels that they just look like a bird gun. The big thing with the chokes is what do you want to do with the gun. You can go with the over the counter stuff that is better then the stock chokes. Then you can go into the custom stuff.

June 8, 2009, 10:07 PM	#15
mike72712 Member Join Date: May 1, 2009 Posts: 18	The 1100, I'm just going to pattern w/the Briley extended chokes, as those would be the only ones I'll use w/the gun. (I'll keep the mod RemChoke that came w/it in the barrel when not in use, JIC I fired it w/o the Brileys so as to not screw up the threads.) The 870 Wingmaster Trap, I'll just pattern again w/the extended Brileys, as those are what I'd use w/that gun. The three "trap" RemChokes that come w/that gun I won't use. I'll just keep one in there "in case" as w/the above. The 870 Express, I'm going to pattern the skeet/mod/full RemChokes, but not the Brileys -- as I'd never use those w/that gun. I'd be shooting a variety of ammo w/that gun (buck, slugs, etc.) But w/the 1100 and the WM Trap, I'd only be using 7 1/2 and 8 1/2 target shot, etc.