shotgun primer swap

[short stack]

i'm looking to build some steel loads for ducks. in the lymann 5th shotshell handbook they have a recipe for a 7/8 load in a rem sts hull that uses steel powder and a rem 209p primer. the pressure runs 9100 psi. my question is: with the current primer shortage, i can't find the rem primers. i have a supply of win 209 and was wondering if anyone can help with info on swapping the two out. thanks, mark

[BigD_in_FL]

Many primers can be safely subbed - what you want to watch out for is going from a standard primers to a hotter magnum one - that will increase pressures too much. Going the other way should be fine. The only issue you might run into is in really cold weather getting a blooper.

[rlc323]

I hate the idea of switching 209 primers as there is almost always a variation in pressure from one brand to the next when you look at the data from the powder manufacturers. Winchester 209 tend to be "hotter" than Rem 209's.

I looked on the Alliant website and they only list the Fed 209 data with Steel powder. Best advice would be to e-mail or call Alliant and ask about the substitution.

That said, I have found that Cheddite 209 primers most closely replicate Remington 209's in trap loads.

[BigD_in_FL]

Having emailed the gent at Alliant, HE was the one saying what I typed above. There is not enough difference between regular primers by brand. Magnum is a different story

[short stack]

thanks for the info. i have some time before i can get out and pattern so i'll keep researching. so far i've found that the win primers are a little hotter than the rems. with the recipe at 9100 psi ,i think i should still be within the limits. thanks again, mark

[Pongo]

short stack,

It appears you have the lyman 5th edition, read chapter 4 on shotshell primers.

Both Lyman and Hodgdon have tested pressure variations due to interchanging primers and the difference in pressures is significant.

This from Lyman 5th ed page 46. ' Obviously any person that suggests that primers are interchangeable or predictable is simply wrong. The reloader MUST use primers only as specifically indicated by the various loading data.'

[BigD_in_FL]

Tell that to Ed from Alliant - THEY have the pressure testing equipment. Many primers are easily and safely interchanged with no appreciable difference in velocity or pressure. Others are not. Standard primers such as Win, Nobel Sport, Fiocchi, Cheddite and similar are interchangeable. Do not swap hotter CCI or magnum Federal or Remington STS with the others.

Shotshell Primer Comparison
Winchester 12-Ga. 2-3/4" AA Hull
17.0 Grains IMR 700-X Powder
Greenduster GT 9210-12 Wad
One Ounce No. 8 Lead Shot

Primer and Lot Velocity f.p.s. Chamber Pressure p.s.i.
Fed. 209A 03513 1251 (EV 14) 10,860 (EV 600)
CCI-209M D03C 1248 (EV 22) 10,460 (EV 1300)
Win. 209 NFL124 1246 (EV 22) 10,140 (EV 400)
Rem. 209STS 1236 (EV 16) 9,740 (EV 2200)
FIO-616 1234 (EV 28) 9,690 (EV 1600)
CCI-209 B032 1232 (EV 30) 9,650 (EV 2300)
Rem. 209P 127 1228 (EV 34) 8,810 (EV 2200)
Fed. 209 A8702 1226 (EV 18) 9,070 (EV 900)
Win. 209 MDL542 1224 (EV 30) 10,200 (EV 1700)
Cheddite 209 1217 (EV 20) 9,270 (EV 2000)

[Pongo]

Tell that to Ed from Alliant - THEY have the pressure testing equipment. Many primers are easily and safely interchanged with no appreciable difference in velocity or pressure. Others are not. Standard primers such as Win, Nobel Sport, Fiocchi, Cheddite and similar are interchangeable. Do not swap hotter CCI or magnum Federal or Remington STS with the others.

Well. I'm sure Ed from Alliant is aware of the Lyman shotshell reloading manuals, so maybe he should take this issue up with Lyman.

Even the data you have furnished shows a variation in pressure that should give a reloader cause to think very hard about the possible consequences of interchanging primers.

Have Alliant published anything stating that. 'Standard primers such as Win, Nobel Sport, Fiocchi, Cheddite and similar are interchangeable.' If so, please show me where.

[BigD_in_FL]

It was sent to me and several others on Shotgunworld in emails

you do what you want. I have been reloading shotshells for 35 years and following what I said above works just fine with no issues

If you look at that chart, you'll see which primers group in a similar velocity and pressure range - those will interchange. The other group will interchange for those applications

No need to make this more complicated than it is. Shotshell is a lot more forgiving than metallic since powder and shot drops are never exacting in the first place

[short stack]

thanks for the info. i see that the win primers do add more of pressure. if i add that to the 9100 psi i would hypotheticlly be around 10500 psi. which for me is too close to the top without a tested recipe. i have a couple more load books on order to see if there is any recipes that will fit my stock of primers and powder,etc. i curently have the lymanns book, alliant and bpi status of steel. i just hope this supply shortage ends before the hunting season starts. again ,thanks guys. mark

[5R milspec]

I cannot say anything about pressure,but will add something.Back in the day when dad only loaded for a 20ga,I found that they make them different size's.I was loading some Remington 20ga ( old Peters high brass ) and didn't know about the difference YET,so I choose the CCI 209 primers.Well at first I could not feel a difference,then my dad said to me,make sure you use a Remington primer.I stopped and asked why,well he went on to telling me that he found out that the CCI brand was larger in OD.I went on to say that I had choose to use CCI and not Remington,and had 50 or so loaded up.He then went on to telling me that I had to mark the hulls with a marker,because now they will only take a CCI primer.Soon after I did a little test to see what was up,so I deprimered one after primming one with a CCI ( old Peter ) ,then I tried a Remington primer to see what would happen.Well I couldn't get that sucker to stay in,dad was right as always.Found out later he had done the same sometime before me,but it took a long time for him to fess up.Even to this day we still have some of those old hulls with a red mark on the side of the hull.

Sorry for my story but I had to share,as soon as I read the post the story came to mind.Plus a new guy might learn something from it.