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Old June 19, 2009, 10:23 PM   #26
HorseSoldier
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I really liked all those failure to stop shots in the hip region. All those shots and only one rifle round damaged the hip structure...but look at all the wounds on the hips and buttocks from rounds that should have "shattered the hip" or "broken the pelvic girdle."
+1 -- the actual pelvic girdle is a pretty small target down in the lower abdominal area. Any rounds that actually did hit it should have produced a good mobility kill sort of hit, but it's a low percentage kind of shot.

On the other hand, it's a nicely vascular area where you've got pretty good chances of getting a major bleed going if/when the upper torso and head aren't working or attackable for some reason.
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Old June 20, 2009, 12:41 AM   #27
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i agree with the shotgun statment, cops now days want to get all hi-tek with fancy guns and such when a well placed 00 buck round would have ended the shooting rather quickly in my opinion.
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Old June 20, 2009, 12:44 AM   #28
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There are cases where buckshot failed to finish the fight, either -- people can be hard to kill or incapacitate when they're amped up for fight or flight.
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Old June 20, 2009, 12:48 AM   #29
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First of all, we're supposed to believe that even though the pistol rounds only penetrated "an inch or less" that one still packed enough oomph to break the guy's arm? That doesn't make any sense at all... Judging from the entrance wounds it appears that some of the rounds were already expanded when they hit him. What it looks like to me is that some of the rounds went through intermediate barriers before hitting him and that's why they were pre-expanded and also why didn't penetrate sufficiently. It looks like other rounds didn't have to defeat barriers and they did some damage--the one that broke his arm, for example.

That aside.

I recently saw a reader letter in the March 2009 issue of Guns & Ammo magazine complaining about the poor performance of the M855 round in combat.

It was pretty compelling. The guy was referencing his experiences in Iraq and talking about failures to stop that he and his buddies had seen. "I've seen and heard of insurgents taking multiple hits with the M855 and not going down."

It was compelling right up until the end of the letter where he explained how they got the job done even though the round was ineffective. Apparently their training and marksmanship was how they got the "ineffective" round to do its job.

The last line of the letter was: "But if you ... hit the vital areas, it will go down."

Interesting that Mr. Thompson of VT "broke the code" of firearm effectiveness and actually wrote it down but apparently still didn't realize it.

What it comes down to is that you can shoot a person or animal full of holes with almost no effect if you don't hit the vital areas. But if you DO hit the vital areas they will go down.

Short version: Shot placement is key.
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Old June 20, 2009, 12:57 AM   #30
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The x-rays don't really show much compared to the actual body pics. First thing I thought looking at the frontal actual body picture is that shot placement was poor. The bullet that appears in the region of the heart in the x-ray must have entered from the side, because there is not an entrance wound on the front of the body mid-chest. I see an entrance wound on the side of the chest. And, just because an x-ray shows a bullet near the heart, doesn't mean it's actually in the same plane as the heart, nor does it mean it actually hit the heart. Could be slightly in front, slightly behind, etc. The neck wounds don't appear too close to the carotids. The text says one 223 bullet pierced the aorta, but it doesn't say to what extent the aorta was damaged. That's an issue where the big bullet argument might be true. If a bigger bullet had caused more aorta damage, that might have brought him down. The gaping holes in the side of the chest look like medical work to me, such as chest tube placement, not gunshot wounds. Really doesn't surprise me that he continued to fight. If there were two or three centrally placed entrance wounds in the center front of his chest, I would be surprised that he was still fighting. Not unheard of, but unusual as far as I would expect. Fight or flight and the whole adrenaline thing does play a role in helping some folks keep it ramped up under unusual circumstances, but no amount of adrenaline overcomes certain types of body trauma - again, if shot placement is correct.

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Old June 20, 2009, 06:07 AM   #31
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I wonder if this PD is going to follow FBI protocol, one shootout gone bad and powerup, trade in their 223's for 308's and 40's for 45's. You just don't know, I was watching the "First 48" homicide program a few month's ago a really big guy was killed instantly sitting behind the wheel in his truck. He was hit once in the right arm and it went through his chest.

The gun was a PUNY 380, he died so fast he was still clutching his dope money when they found him. Appears the dealer and him either had a beef or robbery was the motive and the dealer paniced after the shooting and left without the cash. I guess we have all been going in the wrong direction, instead of 40's and 45's, we should have been going to 380's!

This sure does make an arguement for Hi-Cap though, most NORMAL people would have given up after the first or second hit. The old saying " expect the unexpected" holds true when it comes to gunfights.

Then this average built guy takes all these hits and fights until I assume he bleeds out. Gotta love the tatoo's, the kind of son every mother dreams of. He was determined to die, but take as many with him as possible. Thankfully he made the trip alone.
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Old June 20, 2009, 06:17 AM   #32
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I haven't seen any mention of this , but do we know if the guy was high on something? Many times a guy high on crack or meth will not go down or act like anyone else might do in same circumstances. Their bodies don't feel pain and react the same way a "normal" person would do.
I'm not going to criticize the officers marksmanship at all because it's a whole different ballgame when some guy is shooting back at you. It's real easy to sit at a range and hit your point of aim all day long.
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Old June 20, 2009, 09:55 AM   #33
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Lack of center front hits doesn't necessarily mean anything...

... let alone poor marksmanship.

I somehow doubt that in a several minute gunfight, the participants stood or knelt, statically facing each other for protracted periods.

For some reason, I assume a fair amount of movement, and use of cover. I also assume targets being offered in lots of quickly changing aspects. A near center hit through the side would be pretty good marksmanship on a moving target that was moving laterally across field of view.

In a shoot, move, cover scenario, just what exactly would be a reasonable hit percentage to call "good marksmanship"? I would have a hard time putting a quantitative definition here, there are too many variables. Target movement, shooter movement, awareness of partner's position and fields of fire, awareness of cover for self or adversary, movement around obstacles, etc.
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Old June 20, 2009, 01:01 PM   #34
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Hits in side, ankles, etc....

.... could also be the result of tactics, as opposed to poor marksmanship.

Tactic: One officer engage and pin down BG, while other officer moves to flanking position. This would result in one or the other officer having side aspect target presentation.

Tactic: Use of vehicle for cover by officers or BG. Engagement of visible parts of BG under vehicle could result in hits to feet and ankles.

Those are just two examples of possibilities where the hit locations being derided by posters in this forum could have been results of tactics, opportunity, and (believe it or not) good marksmanship.
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Old June 20, 2009, 05:03 PM   #35
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wow two officers fired 107 shots in 3.5 minutes. talk about spray and pray. that's a lot of lead flying wild.
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Old June 20, 2009, 05:13 PM   #36
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1 to the brain pan would have saved ammo. It may have been more expensive with the Hazmat crew ... but ... would have put him down instead of making him swiss cheese.
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Old June 20, 2009, 06:45 PM   #37
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The x-rays don't really show much compared to the actual body pics. First thing I thought looking at the frontal actual body picture is that shot placement was poor. The bullet that appears in the region of the heart in the x-ray must have entered from the side, because there is not an entrance wound on the front of the body mid-chest.
Gee, I didn't know that the only way you could shoot COC/COM or try to hit the cario region was waiting until the perp is only facing you frontally and firing. No everyone is shot straight on frontally especially when they are turning and moving themselves.

I always thought of a person and being 3 dimensional and that you could shoot at the COC/COM cardio region from virtually any side or angle. Now we have a pretty skinny perp in that picture and it shows a bullet aligned in at apparently the X and Y axis, but not Z. So we have a shot entering from the side of a skinny perp and so apparently just missing the heart and you call that poor shot placement?

Okay, granted, most folks have a lot more trouble exteriorly trying to landmark the location of the heart in the torso in general and even more in a direction other than from the front, but by golly calling a shot that close to the heart as poor shot placement because it didn't enter from the front is just plain silly.

Now, a lot of the shots didn't result in great shot placement, but then again, maybe the cops were hitting what was available to them (at least some of the time). The perp's foot was shot under the car because that was the shot the officer had at the time.

With that said, I don't know what shot the cop was taking for the slug to end up right by the heart. For all I know, he was aiming at an arm protruding from behind the car and the perp moved and he missed the arm, so the placement on his part would have been bad, but lucky.

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1 to the brain pan would have saved ammo. It may have been more expensive with the Hazmat crew ... but ... would have put him down instead of making him swiss cheese.
In all seriousness, the head is a tough target to hit. Within the head itself, maybe only 40% is vital. There is a lot of area occupied by bone, face, and sinus cavities that aren't vital. So yeah, one to the brain stem would have put the guy down.

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wow two officers fired 107 shots in 3.5 minutes. talk about spray and pray. that's a lot of lead flying wild.
No, it really isn't. 3.5 minutes is 210 seconds. That's 210 seconds for each officer or rather, 420 person seconds. That is roughly 1 round for every 4 person seconds. That would constitute slow fire at any shooting range.

Even if just one officer shooting all 107 shots, that would still be at a rate of only about 1 shot every 2 seconds, still considered slow fire at virtually any public range. So looking at the time and shots fired does NOT equal spray and pray.
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Old June 20, 2009, 08:43 PM   #38
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Sorry if this has been covered, but I remember a scenario where two Philly officers were confronted by a large assailant, armed with a .25, with with which he had just committed the crime that they were called on.

If memory serves me, 18+ rounds of 158 gr .38 ball, plus two rounds of 00 buck, failed.
In the end, a single slug. that shattered the pelvis, finally stopped him from advancing on the officers, yet he continued to fire, and attempted to reload.

The end came only when he bled out, and was no longer a threat, and the medics were able able to treat him, to no avail.

There are others, such as the NYPD undercover, that failed to stop an assailant with six rounds of .44 Mag, but that's another day.

The lesson from these "actual" shootings is, do not ever be confident that the round you carry is sufficient to stop anything that may be illegally perpetrated upon you, or your loved ones, but more so what you will do when it fails to do so.

These are hard lessons, from someone who has "seen the elephant"

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Old June 20, 2009, 09:18 PM   #39
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I haven't seen any mention of this , but do we know if the guy was high on something?
According to the information in the link, the blood test came back positive for a "trace amount of marijuana".
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Old June 20, 2009, 09:28 PM   #40
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In all seriousness, the head is a tough target to hit.
Are you kidding? One cop shot at and hit the guy's ankle. From what it says, that was an intended shot from under a vehicle to drop the guy. Any cop that can hit an ankle while firing underneath a vehicle should have no trouble with a head shot, nor finding the right place within the head.
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Old June 20, 2009, 09:50 PM   #41
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sounds like they need that "dead right there" ammo from cheaper than dirt...
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Old June 20, 2009, 09:59 PM   #42
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THe report says that most of the .40 rounds were fired through some kind of barrier.
Quote:
• Six .40 S&W rounds, five which expanded, were
recovered on autopsy.
• It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP
ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less
penetration in a human body.
Put two and two together and the .40 rounds had to go through a barrier (don't know what it was, a door maybe?).


Quote:
Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy
FBI standards for terminal performance.
• Results of Hornady 55gr. and 75 gr. TAP
do not satisfy FBI standards for terminal
performance.
• The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this
incident.
• The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition,
although consistent with manufacturer’s claims,
did not perform terminally as this Police
Department expected.
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Old June 20, 2009, 10:04 PM   #43
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Are you kidding? One cop shot at and hit the guy's ankle. From what it says, that was an intended shot from under a vehicle to drop the guy.
Well, next time the perp stands on his planted head, I guess the cops will shoot it. Planted feet behind a car are a relatively easy target when the perp thinks he is protected and doesn't realize his planted feet are exposed.

Cops also shot under the vehicle to down a heavily armored North Hollywood bank robber as you may recall, yet with some 800-900 rounds fired, no cops had or did ever manage a head shot on either of the perps in that robbery.
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Old June 20, 2009, 10:37 PM   #44
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Well, next time the perp stands on his planted head, I guess the cops will shoot it. Planted feet behind a car are a relatively easy target when the perp thinks he is protected and doesn't realize his planted feet are exposed.
Right and the whole time his feet are "planted" his head is bobbing and weaving, right? Is there something I missed that said the guy stayed in the same position the whole time? Almost sounds like nobody wanted to take a headshot, probably due to politics.
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Old June 20, 2009, 11:18 PM   #45
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I felt shot placement was poor because it didn't work - simple as that. And looking at the evidence medically, I can tell you why it didn't work to some degree. The bullet appearing near the heart in the x-ray, again, doesn't mean it actually came near the heart. The bullet could have been in front of or behind the heart. X-rays don't really perceive depth. The heart doesn't take up the entire depth of the chest cavity - far from it. The human heart ain't all that big either. I can also tell you that if you think you're going to eyeball the position of the heart from any angle, you've either been playing too many video games or you'd better be really good at anatomy. I understand about combat conditions and angles, but if any other shot to the chest besides front and center doesn't work, I wouldn't be too surprised. The anatomy wouldn't be working in favor of that kind of shot - that's what I'm saying. And no, I really don't think calling one shot near the chest out of a 100 shots poor shot placement is all that silly. But, my expertise is medicine, not combat, so I have no idea what it's like to be shot at, so I'm not criticizing the cops or anything.

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Old June 21, 2009, 02:06 AM   #46
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So easy to critic when not a one has been in a real combat sit rep let alone a real shoot out!
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Old June 21, 2009, 02:34 AM   #47
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Right and the whole time his feet are "planted" his head is bobbing and weaving, right? Is there something I missed that said the guy stayed in the same position the whole time? Almost sounds like nobody wanted to take a headshot, probably due to politics.
A useful fact about shooting at feet under a car. Feet don't shoot back at you. And if you miss with your first shot, feet are not good at determining where the bullets came from.

Stand up and shoot at a person's head instead and you'll find that you will take return fire unless you are good/lucky enough to get a hit on your first shot.
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Old June 21, 2009, 03:39 AM   #48
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Didn't Bill Jordan say 'the first order of the day was 'to get a bullet in him'.I believe he didn't day it had to be com or a head shot'Just wound him some how.

Perhaps thats why some of the shots were fired.Just a guess from a Newby.
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Old June 21, 2009, 06:50 AM   #49
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I have a feeling some of those " spray and pray" were to keep the officer wounded in the cruiser who couldn't return fire and possible couldn't get out due to his seat belt from getting hit again and killed. I think in part they were trying to keep the perp pinned down or busy returning fire at them.

I think perhaps the foot shot may have been to drop the perp so then a head shot is possible, I think the perp himself may have used a car as a barrier, thus he is dropped introducing a headshot possibility.

Shootouts are violent, disorienting and as much training as one receives, every shootout is different and one must use their best judgement along with training. Also these cops were ambushed and caught off guard. This is yet another event that put them at a psychological disadvantage, then a wounded comrade, possibly trapped in the line of fire.

I'm not saying these LEO's did or didn't performed perfectly, I don't think many of these events do. Anyone involved in a shootout is in sheer terror, with adrenaline flowing and decisions are split second events, not knowing what the other guy is going to do next. Last but not least, I am sure the Miami FBI debacle as well as the infamous hollywood shootout is in the back of many officers minds. Why isn't the guy going down, why isn't he giving up, is he wearing body armor?
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Old June 21, 2009, 07:02 AM   #50
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Right and the whole time his feet are "planted" his head is bobbing and weaving, right? Is there something I missed that said the guy stayed in the same position the whole time? Almost sounds like nobody wanted to take a headshot, probably due to politics.
Stevier-Ray, I don't know where you are, but if you are ever in North Texas, I want you to come out to my place and shoot a target with me. I think you will find it enlightening. Don't worry. It doesn't shoot back.

Quote:
A useful fact about shooting at feet under a car. Feet don't shoot back at you. And if you miss with your first shot, feet are not good at determining where the bullets came from.
I checked Gray's Anatomy. The only sensory organs in feet are for touch related stimuli. Feet have no ability to see, hear, taste, or smell. They have no decision-making nerve bundles by which they can direct other parts of the body into action. In fact, most of those features are all contained in, on, around the head, along with the sense of touch, of course.

While feet do contain the sense of touch, they are far from being the most sensitive parts of the body for touch and so even if determining direction of fire might be possible through touch, the feet would not be the best anatomical structures for the job.
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