Cap and Ball Revolver For Personal and Home Defense

RemTim · May 21, 2010, 10:05 PM

Which cap and ball revolver would receive your highest recommendation for personal defense without conversion? What about home defense? Why???

kwhi43 · May 21, 2010, 10:12 PM

I would go for either the 1851 Sheriffs model in 44 cal, or the 1860 Army
Sheriffs model also 44 cal. Load with all the Swiss FFF you can get in it and
a round ball, and tight fitting caps.

suzukibruce · May 21, 2010, 11:56 PM

tim my 1858 is my personal carry now and since i wear it almost all day, it's my home defense pistol also, but for the "3am there is a crash and i was sleeping" scenario i go for the moss 500

madcratebuilder · May 22, 2010, 06:43 AM

What ever one you shoot best and is the most reliable.

enyaw · May 22, 2010, 06:51 AM

In more than one article about tests and wound channels and real life shootings accumulated from existing records the 1860 Army 44 with it's lead ball had a rating of 75% one shot stops. By comparison the 45 Colt cartridge had 67% one shot stops.
In one test the shorter barreled Sheriff model had the highest velosities and one of the longest crush cavities in ballistic gelletain.
Naturally the Walker was at the top of the list and was comparable to the 357 in one shot stops and had a longer wound channel in the ballistic gell than a 44 mag. with a jacketed soft point bullet. The mushroom of the 44 bullet stopping it short in the gel.
In retrospec the percussion caps which can hang a cap&baller up should be made reliable naturally. I'd opt for a Remington,Rodgers&Spencer,LeMat or one other that had accomodations built in the deal with the flayed ouit caps not hanging the gun action up. Colts are the least reliable when it comes to caps hanging up the action.
While carrying a cap&baller an extra cylinder or two would help the carrier. Of course that'a cumbersom weight and bulk.
I guess if a Pard just strapped on his cap&baller leather rig and wore a long oversize shirt or long coat it could conceal.
I bet if open carry were allowed by law just wearing the rig in full sight in all it's glory with an extra birds head gripped short barreled cross draw revolver added and cylinder pouches and flask and bowie knife would be a deterent.

mykeal · May 22, 2010, 06:56 AM

The best advice I've ever heard:

Quote:

Originally Posted by madcratebuilder

What ever one you shoot best and is the most reliable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by enyaw

In more than one article about tests and wound channels and real life shootings accumulated from existing records the 1860 Army 44 with it's lead ball had a rating of 75% one shot stops. By comparison the 45 Colt cartridge had 67% one shot stops.

I'd sure like to read those articles. Can you provide references, please?

simonkenton · May 22, 2010, 08:29 AM

I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a .44 round ball.

I have 2 cap and ball pistols for home defense.

Fiv3 · May 22, 2010, 08:54 AM

New guy with a related question

What kind of load set up would you go with for a cap and ball that is carried for defense or stored loaded and uncapped for defense at a later date.

I mean, what is the best way (even if it costs a few cents more) to keep a cap and ball at the ready, yet safe...without having to go through the hassle of greasing ends of the cylinder?

I am currently considering carrying my 1858 in a shoulder holster for outdoors protection as I don't have a large revolver back up. I'd like to know what kind of loading procedure would allow me to carry it safely, what I can do to make sure it fires reliably without having melted crisco ooze into my holster or getting bore butter all over my clothes? This particular load out wouldn't be for easy of multiple cylinders of firing as if I were shooting at the range. Just 6 safely loaded balls for a just-in-case.

Also, what propellant would be the most stable/safest to carry for such a situation. I'm not really concerned about fired fouling (although long term unfired corrosion would be nice to know about). I'm more concerned about static build up or something of that ilk. Is that even a real worry?

Sorry for all the questions. I've only come to the Dark Side about 2 weeks ago

simonkenton · May 22, 2010, 10:05 AM

I keep my cap and ball pistols loaded, and in drawers in my house.
I use 30 grains of fffg black powder, no wad and no sealant on the cap or ball.
In this configuration, I have kept a pistol loaded for 3 years and it fired fine, all five cylinders full power. There was no corrosion in the chambers.

This is in the humid N. Carolina mountains.

For carry in the woods, you might want to seal the balls with beeswax. Beeswax won't melt at normal temps. Make a little ball of beeswax, roll it between your fingers to make it soft, and to make a little "noodle" of beeswax an inch long, and pack that in between the ball and the cylinder.

Black powder keeps indefinitely if stored properly, I do know that some of the subs will deteriorate over time, so I would use black powder.

RemTim · May 22, 2010, 10:05 AM

I thought this would be a good thread for the search engines.

Quote:

What ever one you shoot best and is the most reliable.

I use two Remington New Armies for bot personal and home, which seems to be the best choice for me so far. I'd like a third c&b revolver. just wanted some expert opinions on which to base my decision. Thinking of something shorter for personal defense. Could chop the barrel off of my ASM Remmy...it is a decent gun.

mykeal · May 22, 2010, 07:24 PM

Loading protocol: powder, lubed felt wad, ball. No grease.

Use a ball of the proper size and caps that fit and chain fires will not be a problem.

Propellant: real black powder, Pyrodex, Triple 7 - all are stable, with real black having legendary long term stability.

Now the lecture:

There is no, repeat, absolutely no good reason to store a bp revolver loaded for any more than a month, and preferably a week. If you're going to use the gun for self defense you absolutely MUST be fully proficient with it. You're betting your life on that gun and your ability to use it - why would you accept anything less than full, top of the line performance from either the gun or yourself? And how in the world can you be proficient if you haven't fired the gun even once in several months? The simple fact is you can't.

Take the time to find an accurate, reliable load and shoot it once a week at least Get proficient, to where you can place your shots where you want them every time, and stay that way with frequent practice. If you don't, then you're just playing cowboy and you're not serious about using the gun for self defense.

Delmar · May 22, 2010, 08:11 PM

I never have a problem with the caps jamming up on my 58 but have had some problems with this on my 51.

Hawg · May 22, 2010, 08:18 PM

Quote:

I never have a problem with the caps jamming up on my 58 but have had some problems with this on my 51.

Raise muzzle and tilt to right slightly before cocking. it may not totally stop cap jams because Colt has a lighter hammer strike but will greatly reduce them.

w_houle · May 22, 2010, 08:50 PM

Well... whatever route you choose, I would suggest manually manhandling some before you you hang your hat on it. Definitely go with steel though.

RemTim · May 22, 2010, 09:13 PM

Mykeal, your lecture for the day is well received.

I do pretty well keeping two revolvers shot frequently but need to spend even more time with them.
Of course, please continue with the recommendations guys. I realize I am inexperienced and could have made the wrong choice.I had originally thought about the 1851 & 1860 Colts for instance.
It would be a slow transition for me, I have never owned anything but the Remmy.
Until I get comfortable and proficient with another style, I will still follow the words of another esteemed black powder sage:

Quote:

What ever one you shoot best and is the most reliable.

Hardy · May 22, 2010, 09:43 PM

ubertie 1861 navy is my fav. Keep the gun in a holster or on something sloping it downward or your caps will oil and not fire. I take the caps off every morning and clear the nipples with a broken guitar string. I examine the chambers to make sure the balls are still seated properly and check the caps. If the green is gone they won't fire.
WBH

arcticap · May 22, 2010, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykeal

I'd sure like to read those articles. Can you provide references, please?

See post #62, the Colt & Remington Army .44's have a 1 shot stop rating of 75%.
The whole thread pertains to using c&b's for home defense.

BP for HD?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ot+stop&page=3

simonkenton · May 22, 2010, 10:38 PM

mykeal:
Thanks for the repeated lectures on how and when cap and ball pistols should be fired.
But, unless you received your information on Mt. Sinai, engraved on marble tablets by God, your info is no better than mine.

I will shoot my pistols when and how I want.

Smokin_Gun · May 22, 2010, 11:48 PM

Myself I'd prefer to use a Remington .44 C&B with 30gr of Holy Black and a dry loaded Round Ball no wads, lube pills, cereal, or cooking fat.(for long term storage). If I had only the one Remington to practice with, which ain't the case, I'd use the extra cylinder I would buy to practice with and keep the defence cylinder loaded. And I have and kept a C&B cyl. loaded for a year and fired it off without any difficuly.
That's how you keep a C&B loaded and be proficient with it at the same time...or have two of the same mfg. Rems set up to shoot identically. Like two E.N. Santa Barbaras, two ASP's, two Piettas, two Uberti, two ASM's...but the easiest and cheapest would be two C&B cylinders...and the Remington .44's are the easiest to switch cylinders in and most will hold 40gr of Black Powder by Volume.
Just ask the Preacher in Pale Rider :O)

DustyBottoms · May 22, 2010, 11:53 PM

Quote:

I take the caps off every morning and clear the nipples with a broken guitar string.

Nice!
A man after my own heart.
Broken guitar strings are the best thing since... well...
Guitar strings!

Hardy · May 23, 2010, 12:08 AM

Broken guitar strings are the best thing since... well...
Guitar strings!

Dusty, when yu string up a guitar you snap off the ends and you got 6 different gauges of excess strings. Also, if you get too heavy on AC/DC you might pop one. Anyway, you throw them away or use em for nipple cleaning.

DustyBottoms · May 23, 2010, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Dusty, when yu string up a guitar you snap off the ends and you got 6 different gauges of excess strings.

Oh, you don't have to tell me, Hardy!
I've been playing guitar for 20 years - I've got a toolbox FULL of broken guitar string!
You have no idea how handy they are until you have a bunch of the stuff layin' around.
I use 'em for all sorts of stuff...
Most notably, cleaning my airbrushes.
Now I have another use for 'em!

RemTim · May 23, 2010, 12:47 AM

Quote:

If I had only the one Remington to practice with,

i have to have two, so if can comfortably relax;.and,enjoy tearing one down and playing with it, knowing I have the other one a few inches away, just in case i need it, They are both Uberti Remmies so the cylinders swap out. I have an ASM that I have been trying to find a good home for. Thought about keeping it, chopping the barrel, replacing the mainspring with a stiff Uberti mainspring and getting an extra cylinder, but really, I'd rather find another Uberti and some extra cylinders, or some extra cylinders anyway. I like the idea of keeping a defense load in one cylinder, and a practice load in the other. When I had one Uberti, I started to get another cylinder instead of another Uberti...but the fever was so bad, I couldn't help myself.

mykeal · May 23, 2010, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcticap

See post #62, the Colt & Remington Army .44's have a 1 shot stop rating of 75%.
The whole thread pertains to using c&b's for home defense.

BP for HD?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ot+stop&page=3

Thanks, I'll follow that up at the local library. I made an attempt last November but got sidetracked, so thanks for the reminder. Lots of numbers but no info on how the testing was conducted. This is a controversial area. I have no doubt that our black powder guns can do the job, but just like their smokeless counterparts the details are important.

RemTim · May 23, 2010, 09:31 AM

Quote:

mykeal:
Thanks for the repeated lectures on how and when cap and ball pistols should be fired.
But, unless you received your information on Mt. Sinai, engraved on marble tablets by God, your info is no better than mine.

Just so you know, I was there when Mykeal came down from the mountain, with the tablets and a rods of iron that spewed fire, brimstone and smoke...a religious experience, indeed.

...then we went back to Eygpt to settle an old dispute with the powers that were..

The best I can recall, delicacy wasn't one of his strengths back then...but a strong leader he was.

May 21, 2010, 10:05 PM	#1
RemTim Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: North Carolina Posts: 225	Cap and Ball Revolver For Personal and Home Defense Which cap and ball revolver would receive your highest recommendation for personal defense without conversion? What about home defense? Why??? Last edited by RemTim; May 21, 2010 at 10:14 PM.

May 21, 2010, 11:56 PM	#3
suzukibruce Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2010 Location: camden maine Posts: 137	tim my 1858 is my personal carry now and since i wear it almost all day, it's my home defense pistol also, but for the "3am there is a crash and i was sleeping" scenario i go for the moss 500 __________________ Guns don't kill people, jealous husbands that come home from work early kill people

May 22, 2010, 08:50 PM	#14
w_houle Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,391	Well... whatever route you choose, I would suggest manually manhandling some before you you hang your hat on it. Definitely go with steel though. __________________ How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished?

May 22, 2010, 11:48 PM	#19
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	Myself I'd prefer to use a Remington .44 C&B with 30gr of Holy Black and a dry loaded Round Ball no wads, lube pills, cereal, or cooking fat.(for long term storage). If I had only the one Remington to practice with, which ain't the case, I'd use the extra cylinder I would buy to practice with and keep the defence cylinder loaded. And I have and kept a C&B cyl. loaded for a year and fired it off without any difficuly. That's how you keep a C&B loaded and be proficient with it at the same time...or have two of the same mfg. Rems set up to shoot identically. Like two E.N. Santa Barbaras, two ASP's, two Piettas, two Uberti, two ASM's...but the easiest and cheapest would be two C&B cylinders...and the Remington .44's are the easiest to switch cylinders in and most will hold 40gr of Black Powder by Volume. Just ask the Preacher in Pale Rider :O) __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

May 21, 2010, 10:12 PM	#2
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	I would go for either the 1851 Sheriffs model in 44 cal, or the 1860 Army Sheriffs model also 44 cal. Load with all the Swiss FFF you can get in it and a round ball, and tight fitting caps.

May 22, 2010, 06:43 AM	#4
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	What ever one you shoot best and is the most reliable.

May 22, 2010, 06:51 AM	#5
enyaw Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2008 Posts: 134	In more than one article about tests and wound channels and real life shootings accumulated from existing records the 1860 Army 44 with it's lead ball had a rating of 75% one shot stops. By comparison the 45 Colt cartridge had 67% one shot stops. In one test the shorter barreled Sheriff model had the highest velosities and one of the longest crush cavities in ballistic gelletain. Naturally the Walker was at the top of the list and was comparable to the 357 in one shot stops and had a longer wound channel in the ballistic gell than a 44 mag. with a jacketed soft point bullet. The mushroom of the 44 bullet stopping it short in the gel. In retrospec the percussion caps which can hang a cap&baller up should be made reliable naturally. I'd opt for a Remington,Rodgers&Spencer,LeMat or one other that had accomodations built in the deal with the flayed ouit caps not hanging the gun action up. Colts are the least reliable when it comes to caps hanging up the action. While carrying a cap&baller an extra cylinder or two would help the carrier. Of course that'a cumbersom weight and bulk. I guess if a Pard just strapped on his cap&baller leather rig and wore a long oversize shirt or long coat it could conceal. I bet if open carry were allowed by law just wearing the rig in full sight in all it's glory with an extra birds head gripped short barreled cross draw revolver added and cylinder pouches and flask and bowie knife would be a deterent.

May 22, 2010, 08:29 AM	#7
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a .44 round ball. I have 2 cap and ball pistols for home defense.

May 22, 2010, 08:54 AM	#8
Fiv3 Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2010 Posts: 273	New guy with a related question What kind of load set up would you go with for a cap and ball that is carried for defense or stored loaded and uncapped for defense at a later date. I mean, what is the best way (even if it costs a few cents more) to keep a cap and ball at the ready, yet safe...without having to go through the hassle of greasing ends of the cylinder? I am currently considering carrying my 1858 in a shoulder holster for outdoors protection as I don't have a large revolver back up. I'd like to know what kind of loading procedure would allow me to carry it safely, what I can do to make sure it fires reliably without having melted crisco ooze into my holster or getting bore butter all over my clothes? This particular load out wouldn't be for easy of multiple cylinders of firing as if I were shooting at the range. Just 6 safely loaded balls for a just-in-case. Also, what propellant would be the most stable/safest to carry for such a situation. I'm not really concerned about fired fouling (although long term unfired corrosion would be nice to know about). I'm more concerned about static build up or something of that ilk. Is that even a real worry? Sorry for all the questions. I've only come to the Dark Side about 2 weeks ago

May 22, 2010, 10:05 AM	#9
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	I keep my cap and ball pistols loaded, and in drawers in my house. I use 30 grains of fffg black powder, no wad and no sealant on the cap or ball. In this configuration, I have kept a pistol loaded for 3 years and it fired fine, all five cylinders full power. There was no corrosion in the chambers. This is in the humid N. Carolina mountains. For carry in the woods, you might want to seal the balls with beeswax. Beeswax won't melt at normal temps. Make a little ball of beeswax, roll it between your fingers to make it soft, and to make a little "noodle" of beeswax an inch long, and pack that in between the ball and the cylinder. Black powder keeps indefinitely if stored properly, I do know that some of the subs will deteriorate over time, so I would use black powder.

May 22, 2010, 07:24 PM	#11
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Loading protocol: powder, lubed felt wad, ball. No grease. Use a ball of the proper size and caps that fit and chain fires will not be a problem. Propellant: real black powder, Pyrodex, Triple 7 - all are stable, with real black having legendary long term stability. Now the lecture: There is no, repeat, absolutely no good reason to store a bp revolver loaded for any more than a month, and preferably a week. If you're going to use the gun for self defense you absolutely MUST be fully proficient with it. You're betting your life on that gun and your ability to use it - why would you accept anything less than full, top of the line performance from either the gun or yourself? And how in the world can you be proficient if you haven't fired the gun even once in several months? The simple fact is you can't. Take the time to find an accurate, reliable load and shoot it once a week at least Get proficient, to where you can place your shots where you want them every time, and stay that way with frequent practice. If you don't, then you're just playing cowboy and you're not serious about using the gun for self defense.

May 22, 2010, 08:11 PM	#12
Delmar Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2009 Location: Norhthern Indiana Posts: 307	I never have a problem with the caps jamming up on my 58 but have had some problems with this on my 51.

May 22, 2010, 09:43 PM	#16
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	ubertie 1861 navy is my fav. Keep the gun in a holster or on something sloping it downward or your caps will oil and not fire. I take the caps off every morning and clear the nipples with a broken guitar string. I examine the chambers to make sure the balls are still seated properly and check the caps. If the green is gone they won't fire. WBH

May 22, 2010, 10:38 PM	#18
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	mykeal: Thanks for the repeated lectures on how and when cap and ball pistols should be fired. But, unless you received your information on Mt. Sinai, engraved on marble tablets by God, your info is no better than mine. I will shoot my pistols when and how I want.

May 23, 2010, 12:08 AM	#21
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Broken guitar strings are the best thing since... well... Guitar strings! Dusty, when yu string up a guitar you snap off the ends and you got 6 different gauges of excess strings. Also, if you get too heavy on AC/DC you might pop one. Anyway, you throw them away or use em for nipple cleaning.