1914/1917 Timney Trigger

[teejhot.40cal]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I am putting a Timney trigger on my 1917 pattern enfield. I have seen there are 2 different triggers, 5 shot or 6 shot. Reading the reviews, I got a little confused on which one I should use. I know its a 6 shot with a floor plate. Does that mean I use the 6 shot trigger group?

[Scorch]

1917 pattern Springfield?
Do you mean a M1917 Enfield? If so, the issue is whether or not the magazine has been shortened to hold 5 rounds, which would require a shorter trigger than the original potbelly Enfield holding 6 rounds.

[teejhot.40cal]

It doesnt seem to be.

[T. O'Heir]

If 6 rounds fit in the mag, use the 6 shot mag trigger. The reviews are irrelevant.

[teejhot.40cal]

Got it... Thank you T.O.

[RC20]

Just an aside on the 1917 terminology.

The 303 British version was the Pattern 14.

The US version in 30-06 has a number of names and reference, but pattern 17 is not one of them (though those who know can read between the lines)

usually the best recognition and also found in the US Military Literary is the 1917 Enfield. Some do not like the use of Enfield but it was used in the literature thought not all of it.

Pretty well describes the is heritage and the US model designation..

The rifle itself has the Winchester/Remington/Eddystone Model of 1917 on it.

Sometimes referred to as an Eddystone or Eddystone 1917 as they made the most of them by quite a bit.

[tahunua001]

1917 pattern Springfield?
Do you mean a M1917 Enfield?

if that's the case it would still be wrong as neither the P14 or M1917 were designed or built by Enfield.


to the OP:
if in doubt get the 6 shot. there were slight differences between the P14 and M1917 mostly involving action length and bolt length, the 5 shot, being the P14 could possibly have issues with engaging/disengaging the bolt.

[teejhot.40cal]

OK I have the 6 shot timney trigger. Everything in it is pretty self explanatory but I do have one more question if I could get some help. In the package there is a little piece on metal that looks like a hearing aid battery, what is it that little piece of metal?

[RC20]

I have not worked with the trigger so unknown. Should be a lit sheet? And or internet instructions available?

tahunua001:

And to answer the following: Royal Small Arms Factory was located in the London Bureau of Enfield (or per Ferris, Enfield Lock Middlesex England). A place, not a firm or an individual (designer).

Ergo, the 276 Cartridge as listed as the 276 Enfield and the 1913 design as well as the 1914 mod came out of the RSAF.

Why it was not called the RSAF 1913 I do not know, I guess I defer to the Brits to name and call their productions what they would like to.

Ergo, the 1917 is also referred to as the 1917 Enfield and the US military literate used that term (no always but it was used)

Mr. Ferris who I respect hugely also believes that "Enfield" nomenclature is incorrect.

I will disagree in that if you use the 1917 Enfield or Model of 1917 Enfield its clear what you are talking.

if that's the case it would still be wrong as neither the P14 or M1917 were designed or built by Enfield.

[James K]

The original rifle was indeed called the Pattern 1913. It was chambered for the .276 Enfield, which was designed to carry a heavy powder charge and had a very large (.528") base. The deep magazine was needed to hold 5 rounds of that cartridge. When WWI loomed, the British abandoned the idea of changing caliber and reworked the rifle to use the rimmed .303 British. The new rifle was called the Pattern 1914, and due to the rimmed cases, the magazine also held only 5 rounds. Some were made at Enfield, but when war came the British decided to concentrate British industry on the SMLE Mk III, for which tooling already existed, and farm the Pattern 1914 out to American manufacturers under contract.

When the U.S. entered the war, the companies (Winchester, Remington, and the Remington-managed Eddystone factory) had just completed the British contracts, but were asked by the U.S. Army to adapt the Pattern 1914 (P.14) to the U.S. .30-'06 cartridge. This was done, and most of the rifles used by American troops in WWI were the modified P.14, dubbed the U.S. Rifle, Model of 1917. Due to the fact that the .30 caliber was rimless, the large magazine would hold six cartridges, though it was always loaded with 5-round clips, the same as were used with the Model 1903 Springfield.

In the common usage, the modified British rifle, the Model of 1917, was always called "the Enfield", while the native American Model 1903 was always called "the Springfield", and many were the arguments (still going on nearly a century later) over which was the better rifle. A realistic conclusion would be that they were both darned good.

Jim

[oldscot3]

A common modification when sporterizing an Enfield is to cut the floorplate metal and then re weld it so it is flat thus eliminating the "guppy belly" profile. It reduces the ammo capacity from six to five. It also means you need a trigger that is shorter hence the round count specification by Timney.

[RC20]

Had not heard of that but good to know

[tahunua001]

the fact remains that the model 1917, which required a lot more modification than simply rebarreling the P14 and all production and design of such was done on american shores by american arms manufacturers.

I doubt the americans called their rifles enfields. first and foremost because they were fighting in the trenches right alongside brits and the last thing anyone needed was to try and figure out what ammo the other guy needs when he asks for ammo for his "enfield". this is the very reason all the 1917s that later went to great Britain had to have red bands painted on them to keep people from trying to shove 303 bit in a 30-06. the U.S. both in practice, and on paper, always called the U.S. model 1917, exactly that.

it would be the same as the nazis calling all of the miriad of rifles used as 8mms, nobody would know if they needed 8mm mauser, 8mm kurz, 8x56R or 8x50R.

it is also the same confusion that people get when you show someone a Type I rifle and many(including myself) use the incorrect nomenclature and call it an Arisaka, but when you look at the action and rifling, it's closer to a carcano than Arisaka. the Japanese navy on the other hand, more than likely did not call it an arisaka to prevent confusion.

[oldscot3]

Yep;if you go to hoosiergunworks.com, they sell enfield p 14/17 parts and list the triggerguards in stock and "straightened" configuration.

[James K]

"I doubt the americans called their rifles enfields."

Sorry, but any reading of the old books or magazines will show that they did just that, and for decades, the term "Enfield" in the US meant the M1917. (There were almost no SMLE's or No. 4's in this country until around 1955.)

Further, the term "Enfield" in Brownells catalog and many gun books means the Model 1917, not the SMLE or Rifle No. 4. WWI vets used the same terms about the rifles they were issued. Most liked the Springfield because it was more accurate, cocked on opening, and was lighter and less clumsy. Enfield users liked the battle sights, but generally didn't care for the rifle otherwise.

As to straightening the Enfield "belly" and other mods, check out the Remington Model 30, 30s and 720. They were all made from left over Model 1917 receivers, with shortened bolt handles, "flipped" bottom metal, and "de-eared" receivers. Some writers say those guns are "like" the 1917; not so. They WERE 1917's, made from the huge supply of parts left over from wartime production.

Jim

[RC20]

The United States Rifle, caliber .30, M1917 and is described as a breech loading rifle of the bolt
type. It is sometimes called the Enfield rifle (extracted from the War Department Basic Field
Manual 23-6), since it was developed at the Royal Small Arms Factory located at Enfield Lock, in
Middlesex and located approximately 11 miles north of London Bridge on the outskirts of London.

with all due respect, in WWI the official publications listed the Enfield as the history and explanation of what they and and how they got it. the following link is a 1942 copy of that.

https://archive.org/details/Fm2-36

I don't know that it can be made any clearer than that and what James K has added.

Not all publications used the term Enfield in the title. It was part of the rifle heritage and was acknowledged as such.

I can send the PDF of the WWI version if anyone wants it, I do not have the link I got it from

[moose fat]

teejhot.40,
I would call Timney or ask the guys at Brownell's to find out about that bit of metal, shim/spacer.?