Calipers - Page 3

mikld · July 22, 2017, 10:47 AM

An aside; Yesterday I had a major OOPS! As I got my calipers out of the tool box drawer, my finger bumped the side of the drawer and the calipers fell 18" to the bench top. @&!!!. The dial read .060" with the jaws closed. I was able to disassemble the calipers and get it back to working order (?) but it's off by about .001" when measuring my 45 cal FMJ bullets, so I'm again in the market for dial calipers! Checking Amazon, Craftsman, Northern Tol and Global Industrial for a decent caliper that I can afford...

HiBC · July 22, 2017, 12:37 PM

They don't like being dropped. Bummer.
Most calipers have a thumbscrew that allows you to rotate the dial . You can reset the zero under the needle.

**Unclenick** · July 22, 2017, 06:52 PM

Someone measured battery current demand by different digital calipers. IIRC, the Mututoyo drew about a tenth the current that some inexpensive Chinese ones did. Hence the battery drain difference. The thing isn't the fact it was made in China, but rather to whose specification and process standards. There is some first tier stuff that comes out of China. It just isn't as cheap as the cheapest stuff.

I've had mixed results from Harbor Freight. I bought a little 4" digital there for travel that works fine and that I could afford to lose. I bought a set of their calipers that includes metric, inch, and fractional inch options in the readout. They were fine and I gave them away to a fellow who needed them more, as he was having trouble mentally switching between decimal and fractions. Then I bought an identical looking set to replace them and that second set was terrible. Clearly came out of an entirely different plant. All the edges were sharp enough to get cuts from. The felt gritty on sliding and there turned out to be grinding dust inside when I disassembled them to clean and de-horn the edges. The jaw flexed too easily to be trusted and I finally just gave up on them. In the second instance, someone in HF purchasing went with the lowest bid and got what they paid for.

The main advantage to digital calipers, in addition to conversions, is you can zero them and get a size difference reading without risking making an arithmetic mistake. The main drawback is you can't read below the native resolution, where a good dial caliper will let you interpolate between graduations, often getting close to micrometer precision, if you know how to handle the jaws correctly. It takes practice.

Rather than gauge blocks, something of more use to most shooters is a precision pin gauge set. The ground diameters of even the cheap stuff is within about 0.2 thousandths. Close enough to check against outside a tool room.

You do want to be able to see tenths of a thousandth if you can when you are slugging a bore or a chamber or trying to detect case head expansion. Otherwise, most reloading measurements just don't require it. However, a micrometer will always be more reliable than a caliper for these high resolution values.

Brutus · July 23, 2017, 09:36 AM

As an Aerospace manufacturing engineer I've had many calipers.
Don't like electronic thingies much, use an electronic scale only to verify my balance beam. I use dial calipers at work those from Brown & Sharpe or Starret are the best. Mititoyo makes a decent one and I use the electronic one at my reloading bench primarily because it can switch from English to metric.
Only hassle is you have to have batteries handy. I calibrate it with gage blocks to make sure it is accurate.

My solution to Unclenicks concerns is to have micrometers available as well.
A disc mike is great for checking crimp diameters.

Kevin Rohrer · July 24, 2017, 05:51 AM

A disc mike is great for checking crimp diameters.

Is that the same as a Ball Micrometer?

Gary Wells · July 24, 2017, 08:59 AM

A disc mic, in addition to being quite pricey, would not be my 1st choice for measuring crimp dias as the top spindle moves in a circular rotation, thereby trying to walk off of the dia being measured. Non digital calipers are my 1st choice. An optical comparator, if one has access to one, would be best.

mikld · July 24, 2017, 12:49 PM

Quote:

A disc mike is great for checking crimp diameters.

As a machinist/mechanic for many years, I don't believe this is true. "Disk mikes" have a real disk on the anvil and spindle. https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnp...yABEgKP-fD_BwE Measuring a narrow area, like a crimp isn't possible. Perhaps he meant a Blade Micrometer, designed for measuring narrow areas...https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06233670

Ball micrometers have a ball shape on the end of a differently designed anvil for measuring tube wall thickness https://www.amazon.com/RCBS-87324-Ve.../dp/B001QVRJAQ

ed308 · July 27, 2017, 02:07 PM

So I ordered a 6" Mitutoyo 500-196-30 digital caliper from MSI Viking for $89 (free shipping) around the same time this thread started. My original calipers, which I had purchased on Brian Eno's website when I first started reloading came apart at the end. Two screws at the end came loose and the plate they screwed into is no where to be found. I think I paid around $40 for the caliper. They served me well for many years, but lately I've needed to install a fresh battery every time I used it. The caliper was spot on per my Mitutoyo gauge. But I can really tell the difference in the quality between to two calipers. The Mitutoyo has much more of quality feel to it compared to my original caliper. About my only complaint is the display doesn't automatically shut down after use. No regrets with this caliper. And MSI Viking shipped the following day after I ordered.

jhansman · July 27, 2017, 03:52 PM

Quote:

I have been looking at amazon as I do have prime and have been looking at Cabelas.

These are what I use, and they are consistent and accurate; just remember to check for zero before using. Also work nicely with my Hornady comparator.

ed308 · July 27, 2017, 04:07 PM

I order a lot of stuff on Amazon. But Amazon was more expensive for the 6" Mitutoyo 500-196-30 at $114 compared to $89 via MSI Viking. Plus you won't have to work about a knock off with MSI Viking. Both are free shipping.

jumpingeezer · July 27, 2017, 06:24 PM

TruthTellers,

Sorry about the late reply. You are absolutely correct in your post. I have found though, that a small burr that lets light through the closed jaws can be easily removed by passing a piece of very fine emory cloth between the jaws a few times under a moderate amount of tension.

This trick can save an otherwise good pair of calipers from being scrapped.

This little trick was taught to me by Dr. Suga from Metutoyo during a metronics seminar that I attended almost two decades ago. Damn, I'm getting old!

Beats the alternative though.

HiBC · July 29, 2017, 05:50 AM

Jumpin Geez

I kindasorta agree....

If you look at some of the older B+S,or Starrett Johannsen gauge block sets,you may find a small,fine,translucent grade hard arkansas stone.(If its not "lost")
When needed,thats to float any offending high spot off the gage block,holding it flat .
I want a very fine,very flat hard Arkansas or ceramic stone to stone a high spot off a jaw.
The probem with drawing sand paper through is paper lacks form. It will round the tips of the jaws.

I have no problem with floating a little ding off.

FWIW,I can't tell you all the science,but if you are looking through a light gap between mic or caliper jaws,using natural light,a gap less than .0005 will appear blue.Breakover .0005,the blue disappears. Something about wavelengths. Grab a good mic and try it. Clean carbide faces help.

reinert · July 29, 2017, 09:38 AM

If you reload ammo, then it's calipers and calibers; ya cant' have one without the other (sounds like an old song...).

I have 3, two RCBS (plastic, made by the Swiss) and one stainless one made in China. I knocked my old RCBS caliper off my reloading bench about a month ago, and kind of screwed up the dial (I thought), so I got a new one, my second RCBS dial caliper.

On my old one, I could turn the rim on the dial and bring it back to zero, but it didn't line-up like it did before the fall, and I thought I'd wrecked it. Turns out after I got the new one, that the old one is dead-nuts right on with the new one, and the one from China is less than .001" from the two from RCBS. For my reloading purposes, I'm way good to go. All three are all good, and all three were way less than 40 bucks each.

C7AR15 · July 30, 2017, 12:58 PM

I have had cheap digital vernier calipers in the past. The batteries never last and are expensive.

I have a dial vernier by Mititoyo I have had it for 30 years, with no issues whatsoever.

Better to spend the money on a tool that does the job, than waste money on a piece of China crap.

**Unclenick** · July 30, 2017, 01:55 PM

C7AR15,

Point of terminology: Vernier caliper refers to calipers that use a type of scale invented by the French mathematician by that name to resolve the finest part (aka, least count) of the reading. They are older technology than either dial or digital calipers, which use a dial or a digital distance counter instead of a vernier scale. This is because vernier scales are harder to learn to read. I've never seen a caliper that combined the technologies, as that would be redundant as to purpose.

You can see a good illustration of a vernier scales and calipers and how they work at the Wikipedia.

jumpingeezer · July 30, 2017, 04:18 PM

HiBC, Wow! We both go back a long ways. I sure do remember that very fine Arkansas stone that came with most of the older gage block sets. It was the perfect solution for a slight burr on a caliper or even on a mic.

I haven't seen those stones included in a moderately priced gage block set in a long time.

I admit that I haven't kept up with the latest technology since I retired about a decade ago but I doubt that things have really changed that much.

Older than you and still sucking air

KenT7021 · July 30, 2017, 05:22 PM

I normally use Starrett,Mituotuyo,and Browne and Sharpe calipers.Only the Mituotoyo are digital.I have also used the Chinese calipers in both dial and digital working as a machinist.I used those while running machines that produced a lot of small chips and coolant.They were frequently checked with gage blocks in QC and were accurate.I have a Kobalt digital caliper that is accurate except in one function.The depth rod function was off by .002.Most of the cheap calipers are fine for reloading.

RC20 · July 31, 2017, 10:55 PM

I have the two digitals, ones an old Fowler I picked up for cheap in a pawn shop (before there were cheap micrometers) the other is a Starrett replaced for dial that went bad (my fault, you can't get super glue on them)

Both are very good with batteries life. I do keep a spare battery in the gun box as I take those to the range for COAL adjustments.

When I started Surveying the guy had a Swiss made Wild T-16 (works well for Alaskan woods of course) Direct numbers read, optical plum bob (tricky to set up but once you learned how to do it I could setup on the side of a cliff)

Technically it was a one minute gun, you could estimate down to about 10 seconds and get a solid 20 second results.

Then I wound up working various vernier Transits off and on. What a total pain. What a great way to make a mistake.

When I started working for the next guy a lot, why are we using this George Washington tech level transit, I know you have a T-16. He didn't know how to set it up (that tricky optical plumb bob that's immune to wind)

Ok, I do and can, if I am going to be the gunner (transit operator) then...... End of story, it got retired.

July 22, 2017, 10:47 AM	#51
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	An aside; Yesterday I had a major OOPS! As I got my calipers out of the tool box drawer, my finger bumped the side of the drawer and the calipers fell 18" to the bench top. @&!!!. The dial read .060" with the jaws closed. I was able to disassemble the calipers and get it back to working order (?) but it's off by about .001" when measuring my 45 cal FMJ bullets, so I'm again in the market for dial calipers! Checking Amazon, Craftsman, Northern Tol and Global Industrial for a decent caliper that I can afford... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

July 22, 2017, 06:52 PM	#53
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Someone measured battery current demand by different digital calipers. IIRC, the Mututoyo drew about a tenth the current that some inexpensive Chinese ones did. Hence the battery drain difference. The thing isn't the fact it was made in China, but rather to whose specification and process standards. There is some first tier stuff that comes out of China. It just isn't as cheap as the cheapest stuff. I've had mixed results from Harbor Freight. I bought a little 4" digital there for travel that works fine and that I could afford to lose. I bought a set of their calipers that includes metric, inch, and fractional inch options in the readout. They were fine and I gave them away to a fellow who needed them more, as he was having trouble mentally switching between decimal and fractions. Then I bought an identical looking set to replace them and that second set was terrible. Clearly came out of an entirely different plant. All the edges were sharp enough to get cuts from. The felt gritty on sliding and there turned out to be grinding dust inside when I disassembled them to clean and de-horn the edges. The jaw flexed too easily to be trusted and I finally just gave up on them. In the second instance, someone in HF purchasing went with the lowest bid and got what they paid for. The main advantage to digital calipers, in addition to conversions, is you can zero them and get a size difference reading without risking making an arithmetic mistake. The main drawback is you can't read below the native resolution, where a good dial caliper will let you interpolate between graduations, often getting close to micrometer precision, if you know how to handle the jaws correctly. It takes practice. Rather than gauge blocks, something of more use to most shooters is a precision pin gauge set. The ground diameters of even the cheap stuff is within about 0.2 thousandths. Close enough to check against outside a tool room. You do want to be able to see tenths of a thousandth if you can when you are slugging a bore or a chamber or trying to detect case head expansion. Otherwise, most reloading measurements just don't require it. However, a micrometer will always be more reliable than a caliper for these high resolution values. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 23, 2017, 09:36 AM	#54
Brutus Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Posts: 1,023	As an Aerospace manufacturing engineer I've had many calipers. Don't like electronic thingies much, use an electronic scale only to verify my balance beam. I use dial calipers at work those from Brown & Sharpe or Starret are the best. Mititoyo makes a decent one and I use the electronic one at my reloading bench primarily because it can switch from English to metric. Only hassle is you have to have batteries handy. I calibrate it with gage blocks to make sure it is accurate. My solution to Unclenicks concerns is to have micrometers available as well. A disc mike is great for checking crimp diameters. __________________ Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak out, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen, Winston Churchill.

July 24, 2017, 05:51 AM	#55
Kevin Rohrer Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2010 Location: Medina, Ohio Posts: 1,049	A disc mike is great for checking crimp diameters. Is that the same as a Ball Micrometer? __________________ Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, ARTCA, and American Legion. Caveat Emptor: Cavery Grips/AmericanGripz/Prestige Grips/Stealth Grips from Clayton, NC. He is a scammer

July 30, 2017, 12:58 PM	#64
C7AR15 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2011 Location: Burnaby Posts: 260	Dial vernier I have had cheap digital vernier calipers in the past. The batteries never last and are expensive. I have a dial vernier by Mititoyo I have had it for 30 years, with no issues whatsoever. Better to spend the money on a tool that does the job, than waste money on a piece of China crap.

July 22, 2017, 12:37 PM	#52
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,289	They don't like being dropped. Bummer. Most calipers have a thumbscrew that allows you to rotate the dial . You can reset the zero under the needle.

July 24, 2017, 08:59 AM	#56
Gary Wells Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Posts: 180	A disc mic, in addition to being quite pricey, would not be my 1st choice for measuring crimp dias as the top spindle moves in a circular rotation, thereby trying to walk off of the dia being measured. Non digital calipers are my 1st choice. An optical comparator, if one has access to one, would be best.

July 27, 2017, 02:07 PM	#58
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	So I ordered a 6" Mitutoyo 500-196-30 digital caliper from MSI Viking for $89 (free shipping) around the same time this thread started. My original calipers, which I had purchased on Brian Eno's website when I first started reloading came apart at the end. Two screws at the end came loose and the plate they screwed into is no where to be found. I think I paid around $40 for the caliper. They served me well for many years, but lately I've needed to install a fresh battery every time I used it. The caliper was spot on per my Mitutoyo gauge. But I can really tell the difference in the quality between to two calipers. The Mitutoyo has much more of quality feel to it compared to my original caliper. About my only complaint is the display doesn't automatically shut down after use. No regrets with this caliper. And MSI Viking shipped the following day after I ordered.

July 27, 2017, 04:07 PM	#60
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	I order a lot of stuff on Amazon. But Amazon was more expensive for the 6" Mitutoyo 500-196-30 at $114 compared to $89 via MSI Viking. Plus you won't have to work about a knock off with MSI Viking. Both are free shipping.

July 27, 2017, 06:24 PM	#61
jumpingeezer Member Join Date: November 19, 2015 Posts: 88	TruthTellers, Sorry about the late reply. You are absolutely correct in your post. I have found though, that a small burr that lets light through the closed jaws can be easily removed by passing a piece of very fine emory cloth between the jaws a few times under a moderate amount of tension. This trick can save an otherwise good pair of calipers from being scrapped. This little trick was taught to me by Dr. Suga from Metutoyo during a metronics seminar that I attended almost two decades ago. Damn, I'm getting old! Beats the alternative though.

July 29, 2017, 05:50 AM	#62
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,289	Jumpin Geez I kindasorta agree.... If you look at some of the older B+S,or Starrett Johannsen gauge block sets,you may find a small,fine,translucent grade hard arkansas stone.(If its not "lost") When needed,thats to float any offending high spot off the gage block,holding it flat . I want a very fine,very flat hard Arkansas or ceramic stone to stone a high spot off a jaw. The probem with drawing sand paper through is paper lacks form. It will round the tips of the jaws. I have no problem with floating a little ding off. FWIW,I can't tell you all the science,but if you are looking through a light gap between mic or caliper jaws,using natural light,a gap less than .0005 will appear blue.Breakover .0005,the blue disappears. Something about wavelengths. Grab a good mic and try it. Clean carbide faces help.

July 29, 2017, 09:38 AM	#63
reinert Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 646	If you reload ammo, then it's calipers and calibers; ya cant' have one without the other (sounds like an old song...). I have 3, two RCBS (plastic, made by the Swiss) and one stainless one made in China. I knocked my old RCBS caliper off my reloading bench about a month ago, and kind of screwed up the dial (I thought), so I got a new one, my second RCBS dial caliper. On my old one, I could turn the rim on the dial and bring it back to zero, but it didn't line-up like it did before the fall, and I thought I'd wrecked it. Turns out after I got the new one, that the old one is dead-nuts right on with the new one, and the one from China is less than .001" from the two from RCBS. For my reloading purposes, I'm way good to go. All three are all good, and all three were way less than 40 bucks each.

July 30, 2017, 01:55 PM	#65
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	C7AR15, Point of terminology: Vernier caliper refers to calipers that use a type of scale invented by the French mathematician by that name to resolve the finest part (aka, least count) of the reading. They are older technology than either dial or digital calipers, which use a dial or a digital distance counter instead of a vernier scale. This is because vernier scales are harder to learn to read. I've never seen a caliper that combined the technologies, as that would be redundant as to purpose. You can see a good illustration of a vernier scales and calipers and how they work at the Wikipedia. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 30, 2017, 04:18 PM	#66
jumpingeezer Member Join Date: November 19, 2015 Posts: 88	HiBC, Wow! We both go back a long ways. I sure do remember that very fine Arkansas stone that came with most of the older gage block sets. It was the perfect solution for a slight burr on a caliper or even on a mic. I haven't seen those stones included in a moderately priced gage block set in a long time. I admit that I haven't kept up with the latest technology since I retired about a decade ago but I doubt that things have really changed that much. Older than you and still sucking air

July 30, 2017, 05:22 PM	#67
KenT7021 Member Join Date: September 11, 2016 Posts: 29	I normally use Starrett,Mituotuyo,and Browne and Sharpe calipers.Only the Mituotoyo are digital.I have also used the Chinese calipers in both dial and digital working as a machinist.I used those while running machines that produced a lot of small chips and coolant.They were frequently checked with gage blocks in QC and were accurate.I have a Kobalt digital caliper that is accurate except in one function.The depth rod function was off by .002.Most of the cheap calipers are fine for reloading.

July 31, 2017, 10:55 PM	#68
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I have the two digitals, ones an old Fowler I picked up for cheap in a pawn shop (before there were cheap micrometers) the other is a Starrett replaced for dial that went bad (my fault, you can't get super glue on them) Both are very good with batteries life. I do keep a spare battery in the gun box as I take those to the range for COAL adjustments. When I started Surveying the guy had a Swiss made Wild T-16 (works well for Alaskan woods of course) Direct numbers read, optical plum bob (tricky to set up but once you learned how to do it I could setup on the side of a cliff) Technically it was a one minute gun, you could estimate down to about 10 seconds and get a solid 20 second results. Then I wound up working various vernier Transits off and on. What a total pain. What a great way to make a mistake. When I started working for the next guy a lot, why are we using this George Washington tech level transit, I know you have a T-16. He didn't know how to set it up (that tricky optical plumb bob that's immune to wind) Ok, I do and can, if I am going to be the gunner (transit operator) then...... End of story, it got retired.