Ever tried "ball & buck"

LeMat1856 · February 19, 2010, 02:20 AM

I need your opinion of this: you've heard of "buck & ball" right (load powder, prb, then 00 buck, then o/s card).. i have an experiment i want to try with this howdah - "ball & buck" as follows: powder, .125" o/p card, then an ounce of #2 (.270" shot) then a lubed paper patched .58cal conical.. why, you ask ?

it is possible that the shot slammin' into the conical will actually give it a wider flare to the skirt and better grip in the grooves thus better twist and stabilization because it exits *first* and then have the #2 shot stay bunched up behind it and maybe get better, tighter spread at longer distance (15-20 yards).. ever hear of this ?

i'm finally startin' to warm up to this howdah.. it has potential as short range 'scatter' gun and - according to some - even huntin' capability 'if' you can get a conical to work with 50-55gr FF.. it is so heavy and solid unloaded i think it will take 50-60gr easily.. still, to be safe, i'm goin' to work up to these levels.

what'd ya think ?

~d~

mykeal · February 19, 2010, 07:11 AM

I understand the op card as a gas check, that seems ok. But I don't see the shot column making any difference to the skirt on the conical. The gun barrel will restrict how wide it expands, so how can the shot column make it expand wider? You're apparently assuming the gas pressure alone isn't sufficient to fully expand the skirt; what's your evidence that's the case?

With regard to keeping the shot column together longer, I assume that's to get a better pattern at longer range. But the column is still going to rotate with the rifling; the conical isn't going to prevent that. And therefore it's still going to begin to expand as soon as it leaves the barrel whether or not there's a conical ahead of it. I don't see where that's going to get you a tighter pattern for a longer distance.

If you want to keep the shot column together longer I'd suggest using a shot cup. That should help some by delaying when the column starts to expand out of the muzzle, but it won't totally prevent the column from becoming a donut at some point.

madcratebuilder · February 19, 2010, 07:11 AM

Danial, is your a rifled barrel in .58 or the 20ga (.62) smooth bore? The hottest i have loaded my 20ga is 50grs. That had substantial recoil. I was starting to worry about the strength of the stock, it gets thin at the cut out for the lock and tang.

LeMat1856 · February 20, 2010, 05:50 AM

mykeal,
correct ! the conicals i'm using are about .575" and i'm only assuming that they might not be expanding enough based on a single day at the range.. out of 4-6 shots, none hit the target.. bad aim ? possible and highly probable.

(shot column rotation, etc.)
"..I don't see where that's going to get you a tighter pattern for a longer distance..."

it comes from another often heard warning that having the ball behind the buck will result in the pattern being broken by the "freight train" large ball coming through the buck.. my idea puts the engine at the head of the train and allows the small shot (#2) to follow *behind* the conical.. i'm not so worried about donutin' so much as i am about a 10 foot limitation to its effectiveness.

now that you mention it, a paper shot cup (or plastic) would actually be better.. have to think that over....

madcratebuilder,
mine is the .58cal model and seems so solid and heavy (4 1/2 lbs) that i still find it hard to believe it will only handle 50gr charges... granted the stock does narrow considerably just aft of the lock plates, but i've loaded 40gr in the lemat... ooops, just noticed that the frame of that is all steel unlike the all wood of the howdah... humm, now you've got me rethinkin' this whole thing.

back to the drawing board...

~d~

mykeal · February 20, 2010, 06:32 AM

Buck and ball was an anti-personnel round (aren't they all?) intended for massed firing formations against massed troop formations. The idea was to fill the air with lead from many guns; the accuracy (or lack of it) of any given gun was not a consideration. It came from the naval community where the target was somewhat larger than a barn and filled with enemy combatants at close range. Yes, the ball behind the shot column will definately disturb it; so will the rifling. But who cares if the shot column is disturbed when there's 50 more on either side of it?

pvt.Long · February 21, 2010, 12:14 AM

the buck will ruin your weapon either your rifleing will be disterbed or your barrel with blow up .The .58 is not a good cal for any buckshot behind a mini. The mini was not designed to handle buck shot behind it. Now the .69 on the other hand thats the only load used. the .58 can handle up to .60 grains unless you want to risk gun damage like a breachplug failure or other catastrophic malfunctions. If you want to shoot buck and ball get a .69 smooth bore. Three buck shot behind a .69 ball with about 60 to 70 grains of powder. I have a .58 and I use the military load of 60 grains it has a good kick but its very accruate with a mini. granted im not an expert but i do know a thing or two about what happens when you dont load your gun properly. besides the wight of the buckshot and ball in a .58 will have a real good kick to it.

LeMat1856 · February 22, 2010, 03:35 AM

.
.

got it..

this seems to be a bad idea altogether.. another consideration: the howdah was only used (originally) to hit close range tigers as they attack an elephant.

recently i saw a "guns & gear" video with an 1870 howdah that was breech loaded with brass rounds bigger than my thumb - huge ! ! !

even though an antique, it was designed for high pressure rounds and large caliber lead.. mine is a replica of the original (though they were actually 'over/under' configuration) and should be used as such.

thanks for your advice, one and all, rest assured that you prevented a possible disaster before it even got off the ground.

~d~

February 19, 2010, 02:20 AM	#1
LeMat1856 Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 19	Ever tried "ball & buck" I need your opinion of this: you've heard of "buck & ball" right (load powder, prb, then 00 buck, then o/s card).. i have an experiment i want to try with this howdah - "ball & buck" as follows: powder, .125" o/p card, then an ounce of #2 (.270" shot) then a lubed paper patched .58cal conical.. why, you ask ? it is possible that the shot slammin' into the conical will actually give it a wider flare to the skirt and better grip in the grooves thus better twist and stabilization because it exits first and then have the #2 shot stay bunched up behind it and maybe get better, tighter spread at longer distance (15-20 yards).. ever hear of this ? i'm finally startin' to warm up to this howdah.. it has potential as short range 'scatter' gun and - according to some - even huntin' capability 'if' you can get a conical to work with 50-55gr FF.. it is so heavy and solid unloaded i think it will take 50-60gr easily.. still, to be safe, i'm goin' to work up to these levels. what'd ya think ? ~d~ __________________ Second Amendment: Use It or Lose It...

February 20, 2010, 05:50 AM	#4
LeMat1856 Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 19	mykeal, correct ! the conicals i'm using are about .575" and i'm only assuming that they might not be expanding enough based on a single day at the range.. out of 4-6 shots, none hit the target.. bad aim ? possible and highly probable. (shot column rotation, etc.) "..I don't see where that's going to get you a tighter pattern for a longer distance..." it comes from another often heard warning that having the ball behind the buck will result in the pattern being broken by the "freight train" large ball coming through the buck.. my idea puts the engine at the head of the train and allows the small shot (#2) to follow behind the conical.. i'm not so worried about donutin' so much as i am about a 10 foot limitation to its effectiveness. now that you mention it, a paper shot cup (or plastic) would actually be better.. have to think that over.... madcratebuilder, mine is the .58cal model and seems so solid and heavy (4 1/2 lbs) that i still find it hard to believe it will only handle 50gr charges... granted the stock does narrow considerably just aft of the lock plates, but i've loaded 40gr in the lemat... ooops, just noticed that the frame of that is all steel unlike the all wood of the howdah... humm, now you've got me rethinkin' this whole thing. back to the drawing board... ~d~ __________________ Second Amendment: Use It or Lose It...

February 22, 2010, 03:35 AM	#7
LeMat1856 Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 19	. . got it.. this seems to be a bad idea altogether.. another consideration: the howdah was only used (originally) to hit close range tigers as they attack an elephant. recently i saw a "guns & gear" video with an 1870 howdah that was breech loaded with brass rounds bigger than my thumb - huge ! ! ! even though an antique, it was designed for high pressure rounds and large caliber lead.. mine is a replica of the original (though they were actually 'over/under' configuration) and should be used as such. thanks for your advice, one and all, rest assured that you prevented a possible disaster before it even got off the ground. ~d~ __________________ Second Amendment: Use It or Lose It...

February 19, 2010, 07:11 AM	#2
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	I understand the op card as a gas check, that seems ok. But I don't see the shot column making any difference to the skirt on the conical. The gun barrel will restrict how wide it expands, so how can the shot column make it expand wider? You're apparently assuming the gas pressure alone isn't sufficient to fully expand the skirt; what's your evidence that's the case? With regard to keeping the shot column together longer, I assume that's to get a better pattern at longer range. But the column is still going to rotate with the rifling; the conical isn't going to prevent that. And therefore it's still going to begin to expand as soon as it leaves the barrel whether or not there's a conical ahead of it. I don't see where that's going to get you a tighter pattern for a longer distance. If you want to keep the shot column together longer I'd suggest using a shot cup. That should help some by delaying when the column starts to expand out of the muzzle, but it won't totally prevent the column from becoming a donut at some point.

February 19, 2010, 07:11 AM	#3
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Danial, is your a rifled barrel in .58 or the 20ga (.62) smooth bore? The hottest i have loaded my 20ga is 50grs. That had substantial recoil. I was starting to worry about the strength of the stock, it gets thin at the cut out for the lock and tang.

February 20, 2010, 06:32 AM	#5
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Buck and ball was an anti-personnel round (aren't they all?) intended for massed firing formations against massed troop formations. The idea was to fill the air with lead from many guns; the accuracy (or lack of it) of any given gun was not a consideration. It came from the naval community where the target was somewhat larger than a barn and filled with enemy combatants at close range. Yes, the ball behind the shot column will definately disturb it; so will the rifling. But who cares if the shot column is disturbed when there's 50 more on either side of it?

February 21, 2010, 12:14 AM	#6
pvt.Long Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2009 Posts: 433	the buck will ruin your weapon either your rifleing will be disterbed or your barrel with blow up .The .58 is not a good cal for any buckshot behind a mini. The mini was not designed to handle buck shot behind it. Now the .69 on the other hand thats the only load used. the .58 can handle up to .60 grains unless you want to risk gun damage like a breachplug failure or other catastrophic malfunctions. If you want to shoot buck and ball get a .69 smooth bore. Three buck shot behind a .69 ball with about 60 to 70 grains of powder. I have a .58 and I use the military load of 60 grains it has a good kick but its very accruate with a mini. granted im not an expert but i do know a thing or two about what happens when you dont load your gun properly. besides the wight of the buckshot and ball in a .58 will have a real good kick to it.