Barrel Life and Powders...

Redneck2 · March 21, 2001, 07:07 AM

Going to load 22-250 for high volume shooting (prarie dogs). Expect to go thru 1000-1500 rounds in a week. I usually keep my guns for years and it's difficult to think in terms of using 1/3 of the barrel's useful life in one week. I see that Winchester ball powder supposedly has lower flame temp and longer barrel life. Will this really help???
I know you shouldn't overheat the barrel, and I've had a cryo treatment to get max life. Any other thoughts appreciated.

Southla1 · March 21, 2001, 09:11 AM

Redneck2 using ball powders MAY and I repeat MAY help some according to a lot smarter people than I. Now I do know that one fast way to ruin a good barrel is to keep on shooting it when it is overheated. Try to keep it as cool as possible.

Pampers · March 21, 2001, 09:19 AM

can be best extended by using moly coated bullets.
See:

http://www.precisionshooting.com/aug98.html

Yr. Obt. Svnt.

labgrade · March 21, 2001, 10:51 AM

I dunno 'bout moly bullets. Rick Jaminson/Shooting Times (3-4 months back) did a 2-month test on molys = worth checking out .... YMMV. Never used 'em myself, so can't comment from personal experience.

Your barrel being "worn out" is pretty subjective. I've an old Rem .22-250 Varmitmaster (mid-60s) that has perhaps 10K rounds through it. It still shoots well under 1" at 100yds & at times, turns in some surprising groups around .150" It is nowhere as accurate as it used to be (nor am I) but still will do the poodles way out there.

As far as being shot out - it is. It does though still have a surprising amount of utility.

Problem is, you can't tell when it's the rifle or when it's you.

Pampers · March 21, 2001, 11:36 AM

to reflect his prejudices! No one fires that many rounds without cleaning! With moly, you break-in using moly, and otherwise clean your barrel as you normally would. I've been shooting NRA High Power for over 10 years using moly bullets. I shoot a match (88 rounds) and clean the gun. Cleaning is MUCH easier & quicker than before I started using moly.

I started using it on my handguns with cast bullets, and it eliminated what little leading I had. I would suggest again that you read the Precision Shooting article, and check out the comments in the new Sinclair Precission Reloading manual.

Yr. Obt. Svnt.

labgrade · March 21, 2001, 12:13 PM

OK, works for me, Pampers. Said I didn't have any experience & was just passing on an article about Jamison .... FWIW is all.

That does bring something up that bugs me (not with you, Pampers) but about those who go off to prove something rather than allowing the data to speak for itself. I've been involved with disc drive engineering for the past 20 yrs & see it time & time again ... people out there just to prove something/a point of view/some agenda - whatever - rather than actually finding out what's really going on.

grrrr ...

.... have I mentioned the Strausbourg tests?

stuckatwork · March 21, 2001, 01:37 PM

Labgrade wrote:

... people out there just to prove something/a point of view/some agenda - whatever - rather than actually finding out what's really going on.

___________________________________________________________

Remember, there are three types of lies, lies, damn lies and statistics.

Stuckatwork

DL · March 21, 2001, 04:47 PM

labgrade,

Very valuable lesson/observation, and you see it everywhere and at all levels. A good friend of mine is a pharmacist and she doesn't even trust new drug research if it came from a study that was funded by the company that makes the medicine.

Back to the subject, I've got a 20+ year-old Ruger .220 Swift with a barrel that should be worn smooth by now by conventional wisdom (it isn't, of course). I keep telling myself that I need to retire it or get it rebarrelled, but it rudely keeps hitting what I aim it at...

DL

bullet44 · March 21, 2001, 05:50 PM

I had a bad experience with spray moly in my
1911,may have been my fault, used too much.
anyway I ended up replacing barrel after approx.
500 rounds it could not be cleaned and looked
pitted although I admit it dident hurt accuracy
but man it looked bad.
But to each his own, I won't use it again.

Hot Core · March 21, 2001, 06:33 PM

Hey Redneck2, I understand your concern about doing what you can to extend the life of your barrel. I've asked the same question concerning Powders to the folks who make it and they seem to think it is a wash. Apparently the Ball Powders "might" be a bit more abrasive when hitting the edges of the Lands, but it is offset by the lower temperature. And of course, just the opposite for the Stick Powders, slightly less abrasive, but higher temperature at full pressure.

I have a particular rifle that I really dread the day when I finally need to change the barrel on it. It just shoots most any bullet/powder combination very well. So, in order to extend the life of my barrel(s), I decided to Moly Coat all my rifle bullets.

The article in Precision Shooting that "Pampers" provided the link to is the very best one I've read on the subject. It is quite lengthy and goes into great detail, but is well worth the read. In fact, it is well worth writing down the link so you can get back to it whenever you want to.

Be sure to notice the number of rounds NORMA fired through the "hot 6.5mm" without degrading the accuracy. Then find anyone who does not use Moly and shoots a lot, then ask them to explain what an amazing accomplishment that is.

As Pampers mentioned, an "OUTSTANDING" side benefit is the ease of clean-up. And don't let anyone mislead you into thinking you no longer need to clean your barrels if you go to Moly. That is not true. You still need to clean them after shooting. I still lube the barrels after I clean them, but I now use a Moly containing grease.

Hey labgrade, Old 300Mag(aka Jamison) writing about Moly is an article well worth being skeptical about. A buddy of mine told me about the articles, so I actually wasted some money and bought those two issues. Having looked Jamison's two-part article over and comparing it to my experience with Moly Coated bullets is quite a contrast. No doubt in my mind at all that he wrote what he saw, but it appeared he gave it his usual "half-Clintoned" approach.

Back when he first started with that Gun Rag, he skewed comparison test results to make rifles compared with his beloved 300WinMag appear less than they really were. The sad thing is, that he didn't have to do it, because the 300WinMag is a great cartridge. But, for those of us out here in the world that really knew what he was doing, our respect for his opinion concerning other cartridges was seriously degraded.

That is not to say he does not occasionally write a good article, and the real shame is the "beginners" don't know enough to know when he is pulling a "Clinton" on them. Just a darn shame.

Anyway, I'd recommend anyone who is seriously interested in firearms go read the article that Pampers provided the link to (a couple of times). Other than "not shooting", Moly Coating bullets is the best way I've seen to extend barrel life.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

Redneck2 · March 21, 2001, 07:18 PM

This is the reason I like this forum so much. You guys are great....thanks for the GOOD info.

Art Eatman · March 21, 2001, 09:43 PM

For high-volume shooting, some guys take at least two rifles to a PD town.

Aside from giving the barrel some cool-down time, you might consider loading to less than maximum pressures. 3,700 ft/sec is fun, but a PD can't tell the difference if the bullet leaves the muzzle at 3,400 or so...A good 50- to 55-grain BT bullet oughta give you good results to beyond 300 yards.

FWIW, Art

Redneck2 · March 22, 2001, 05:50 AM

I'm taking a 223 in 110 Savage along with the 250. Also thinking about my Marlin 22 Mag. Probably start with loads around 38 grains of H-380. I totally agree with the max loads thing. I was kind of up in the air about moly but probably go that route now. If I can just get some range time to work up the loads......thanks

Hot Core · March 22, 2001, 08:09 AM

Hey Redneck2, Art is right on the nose. Taking a few FPS off the Load is another great method to extend barrel life. In fact, "velocity" is not much of a concern to me at all. I do like a SAFE (near)MAX Load, for Deer hunting, but my good old tote around varmint/plinkers all seem to do right well at a SAFE non-MAX Load level.

I've got a buddy in Califoney who has been thinking about going to some kind of an Invitational PD Hunt. He is also considering taking a 223Rem 10" Contender, a 22-250 (hasn't decided which one) and an old AMT Custom Shop 22LR.

On his hunt, I think the 223 & 22-250 ammo is supplied by (maybe) Black Hills Ammunition. He has not had a chance to relate all the details. But, he is beginning to think he will have just as much fun with the 22LR.

What kind of accuracy are you getting with your Marlin 22Mag? Which ammo? Which model is it? What kind of scope? Everytime I go past one of those HEAVY (7 pound) Bull Barreled S&S Marlin 22Mags (M882SSV I think), my billfold wants to get out and dump cash on the guy selling it.

I have a M880SS 22LR that I really enjoy(?) shooting Off-Hand with my arm in a Hasty Sling set-up at 100yds. Sure is humbling for me and helps keep the mental image I have of my current shooting skills in a proper perspective.

By the way, if you do decide to go with the Moly Coating, there are a few tricks to it. Might be worthy of it's own Thread. For example, I rarely see people mention to "Wash" the bullets in "Dawn" and rinse well in real hot water, prior to beginning the Moly Coating. You need to be sure you get ALL the manufacturing oil off the bullet jacket as well as finger prints if you want them to Coat well.

Good luck to you on the hunt and lots of clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

Bogie · March 22, 2001, 06:18 PM

One of the nicer moly setups is the True-Kote version - Check at benchrest.com for the web site - may be in the classifieds tho...

March 21, 2001, 09:19 AM	#3
Pampers Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2000 Location: In the Lost State of Franklin Posts: 482	Barrel Life can be best extended by using moly coated bullets. See: http://www.precisionshooting.com/aug98.html Yr. Obt. Svnt. __________________ Your Most Humble & Obedient Servant Fred J. Drumheller NRA Life NRA Golden Eagle

March 21, 2001, 11:36 AM	#5
Pampers Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2000 Location: In the Lost State of Franklin Posts: 482	Rick Jamison's Test was Rigged to reflect his prejudices! No one fires that many rounds without cleaning! With moly, you break-in using moly, and otherwise clean your barrel as you normally would. I've been shooting NRA High Power for over 10 years using moly bullets. I shoot a match (88 rounds) and clean the gun. Cleaning is MUCH easier & quicker than before I started using moly. I started using it on my handguns with cast bullets, and it eliminated what little leading I had. I would suggest again that you read the Precision Shooting article, and check out the comments in the new Sinclair Precission Reloading manual. Yr. Obt. Svnt. __________________ Your Most Humble & Obedient Servant Fred J. Drumheller NRA Life NRA Golden Eagle

March 21, 2001, 01:37 PM	#7
stuckatwork Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2000 Posts: 217	Labgrade wrote: ... people out there just to prove something/a point of view/some agenda - whatever - rather than actually finding out what's really going on. ___________________________________________________________ Remember, there are three types of lies, lies, damn lies and statistics. Stuckatwork __________________ These are the words of Stuckatwork. They don't represent the views or opinions of my employers. They aren't that clever.

March 21, 2001, 06:33 PM	#10
Hot Core Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2000 Posts: 118	300Mag's(Jamison) Article - HAHAHAHAHAHA Hey Redneck2, I understand your concern about doing what you can to extend the life of your barrel. I've asked the same question concerning Powders to the folks who make it and they seem to think it is a wash. Apparently the Ball Powders "might" be a bit more abrasive when hitting the edges of the Lands, but it is offset by the lower temperature. And of course, just the opposite for the Stick Powders, slightly less abrasive, but higher temperature at full pressure. I have a particular rifle that I really dread the day when I finally need to change the barrel on it. It just shoots most any bullet/powder combination very well. So, in order to extend the life of my barrel(s), I decided to Moly Coat all my rifle bullets. The article in Precision Shooting that "Pampers" provided the link to is the very best one I've read on the subject. It is quite lengthy and goes into great detail, but is well worth the read. In fact, it is well worth writing down the link so you can get back to it whenever you want to. Be sure to notice the number of rounds NORMA fired through the "hot 6.5mm" without degrading the accuracy. Then find anyone who does not use Moly and shoots a lot, then ask them to explain what an amazing accomplishment that is. As Pampers mentioned, an "OUTSTANDING" side benefit is the ease of clean-up. And don't let anyone mislead you into thinking you no longer need to clean your barrels if you go to Moly. That is not true. You still need to clean them after shooting. I still lube the barrels after I clean them, but I now use a Moly containing grease. Hey labgrade, Old 300Mag(aka Jamison) writing about Moly is an article well worth being skeptical about. A buddy of mine told me about the articles, so I actually wasted some money and bought those two issues. Having looked Jamison's two-part article over and comparing it to my experience with Moly Coated bullets is quite a contrast. No doubt in my mind at all that he wrote what he saw, but it appeared he gave it his usual "half-Clintoned" approach. Back when he first started with that Gun Rag, he skewed comparison test results to make rifles compared with his beloved 300WinMag appear less than they really were. The sad thing is, that he didn't have to do it, because the 300WinMag is a great cartridge. But, for those of us out here in the world that really knew what he was doing, our respect for his opinion concerning other cartridges was seriously degraded. That is not to say he does not occasionally write a good article, and the real shame is the "beginners" don't know enough to know when he is pulling a "Clinton" on them. Just a darn shame. Anyway, I'd recommend anyone who is seriously interested in firearms go read the article that Pampers provided the link to (a couple of times). Other than "not shooting", Moly Coating bullets is the best way I've seen to extend barrel life. Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

March 21, 2001, 07:18 PM	#11
Redneck2 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2000 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 519	Thanks for your help This is the reason I like this forum so much. You guys are great....thanks for the GOOD info.

March 21, 2001, 07:07 AM	#1
Redneck2 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2000 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 519	Going to load 22-250 for high volume shooting (prarie dogs). Expect to go thru 1000-1500 rounds in a week. I usually keep my guns for years and it's difficult to think in terms of using 1/3 of the barrel's useful life in one week. I see that Winchester ball powder supposedly has lower flame temp and longer barrel life. Will this really help??? I know you shouldn't overheat the barrel, and I've had a cryo treatment to get max life. Any other thoughts appreciated.

March 21, 2001, 09:11 AM	#2
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	Redneck2 using ball powders MAY and I repeat MAY help some according to a lot smarter people than I. Now I do know that one fast way to ruin a good barrel is to keep on shooting it when it is overheated. Try to keep it as cool as possible.

March 21, 2001, 10:51 AM	#4
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	I dunno 'bout moly bullets. Rick Jaminson/Shooting Times (3-4 months back) did a 2-month test on molys = worth checking out .... YMMV. Never used 'em myself, so can't comment from personal experience. Your barrel being "worn out" is pretty subjective. I've an old Rem .22-250 Varmitmaster (mid-60s) that has perhaps 10K rounds through it. It still shoots well under 1" at 100yds & at times, turns in some surprising groups around .150" It is nowhere as accurate as it used to be (nor am I) but still will do the poodles way out there. As far as being shot out - it is. It does though still have a surprising amount of utility. Problem is, you can't tell when it's the rifle or when it's you.

March 21, 2001, 12:13 PM	#6
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	OK, works for me, Pampers. Said I didn't have any experience & was just passing on an article about Jamison .... FWIW is all. That does bring something up that bugs me (not with you, Pampers) but about those who go off to prove something rather than allowing the data to speak for itself. I've been involved with disc drive engineering for the past 20 yrs & see it time & time again ... people out there just to prove something/a point of view/some agenda - whatever - rather than actually finding out what's really going on. grrrr ... .... have I mentioned the Strausbourg tests?

March 21, 2001, 04:47 PM	#8
DL Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: South Florida Posts: 27	labgrade, Very valuable lesson/observation, and you see it everywhere and at all levels. A good friend of mine is a pharmacist and she doesn't even trust new drug research if it came from a study that was funded by the company that makes the medicine. Back to the subject, I've got a 20+ year-old Ruger .220 Swift with a barrel that should be worn smooth by now by conventional wisdom (it isn't, of course). I keep telling myself that I need to retire it or get it rebarrelled, but it rudely keeps hitting what I aim it at... DL

March 21, 2001, 05:50 PM	#9
bullet44 Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2000 Posts: 819	I had a bad experience with spray moly in my 1911,may have been my fault, used too much. anyway I ended up replacing barrel after approx. 500 rounds it could not be cleaned and looked pitted although I admit it dident hurt accuracy but man it looked bad. But to each his own, I won't use it again.

March 21, 2001, 09:43 PM	#12
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	For high-volume shooting, some guys take at least two rifles to a PD town. Aside from giving the barrel some cool-down time, you might consider loading to less than maximum pressures. 3,700 ft/sec is fun, but a PD can't tell the difference if the bullet leaves the muzzle at 3,400 or so...A good 50- to 55-grain BT bullet oughta give you good results to beyond 300 yards. FWIW, Art

March 22, 2001, 05:50 AM	#13
Redneck2 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2000 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 519	Taking three guns... I'm taking a 223 in 110 Savage along with the 250. Also thinking about my Marlin 22 Mag. Probably start with loads around 38 grains of H-380. I totally agree with the max loads thing. I was kind of up in the air about moly but probably go that route now. If I can just get some range time to work up the loads......thanks

March 22, 2001, 08:09 AM	#14
Hot Core Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2000 Posts: 118	Amen to Art's post. Hey Redneck2, Art is right on the nose. Taking a few FPS off the Load is another great method to extend barrel life. In fact, "velocity" is not much of a concern to me at all. I do like a SAFE (near)MAX Load, for Deer hunting, but my good old tote around varmint/plinkers all seem to do right well at a SAFE non-MAX Load level. I've got a buddy in Califoney who has been thinking about going to some kind of an Invitational PD Hunt. He is also considering taking a 223Rem 10" Contender, a 22-250 (hasn't decided which one) and an old AMT Custom Shop 22LR. On his hunt, I think the 223 & 22-250 ammo is supplied by (maybe) Black Hills Ammunition. He has not had a chance to relate all the details. But, he is beginning to think he will have just as much fun with the 22LR. What kind of accuracy are you getting with your Marlin 22Mag? Which ammo? Which model is it? What kind of scope? Everytime I go past one of those HEAVY (7 pound) Bull Barreled S&S Marlin 22Mags (M882SSV I think), my billfold wants to get out and dump cash on the guy selling it. I have a M880SS 22LR that I really enjoy(?) shooting Off-Hand with my arm in a Hasty Sling set-up at 100yds. Sure is humbling for me and helps keep the mental image I have of my current shooting skills in a proper perspective. By the way, if you do decide to go with the Moly Coating, there are a few tricks to it. Might be worthy of it's own Thread. For example, I rarely see people mention to "Wash" the bullets in "Dawn" and rinse well in real hot water, prior to beginning the Moly Coating. You need to be sure you get ALL the manufacturing oil off the bullet jacket as well as finger prints if you want them to Coat well. Good luck to you on the hunt and lots of clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

March 22, 2001, 06:18 PM	#15
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	One of the nicer moly setups is the True-Kote version - Check at benchrest.com for the web site - may be in the classifieds tho...