Retention and Pickpocketers

MCab · October 21, 2008, 08:25 PM

What are some tips for keeping a weapon safe from pickpocketing? I've got a passive retention OWB holster (w/ retention screw). What are some other good retention tips for a holstered weapon?

kpbeckel · October 21, 2008, 09:37 PM

I'd say your best bet from getting ANYTHING pick pocketed is to be aware at all times of your surroundings. Don't let your guard down and stay alert.

Wildalaska · October 21, 2008, 10:05 PM

The best places for dips are the places you probably wont be carrying like the NYC Subway, Moscow Metro or vatican Square

WildyeggspotterAlaska TM

Dwight55 · October 22, 2008, 01:47 PM

I don't own a holster or a pocket that someone could pick a 1911 out of and I would not know it, . . . or my .380 for that matter.

Something about the word "concealed" leads me to believe that the PP would not even know I have it until he was looking down the barrel of my 1911 wondering what that shiny copper thing was down in the hole with a big dent drilled in the middle of it.

May God bless,
Dwight

chrisp0410 · October 22, 2008, 02:07 PM

I travel a lot, most recently (week before last) to Barcelona. Anyone who has ever traveled there knows that the pickpocketers on Las Ramblas are crazy.

The problem with being pickpocketed isn't so much that you don't feel yourself being pickpocketed, it is actually getting the pickpocketer once it has happened.

Typically, a pickpocketer will bump into you, possibly even knock you over in the middle of a crowd. During the instant you are startled is when the actual pickpocketing actually takes place. And remember, the person who bumped you is not necessarily the one who pickpocketed you! As you are in a crowd, it is very difficult to determine who actually got your camera, wallet or pistol. And by the time you look around, get your bearing, etc., the pickpocketer may have already handed it off to another accomplice.

When I feel I'm in an area that is conducive to pickpocketers, I place my wallet in my front pocket. I move to the outside of large concentrations of people and I keep alert. If you look like an easy mark, you may be pickpocketed. If you appear to have a handle on your surroundings, the vermin will target easier prey.

Chrisp0410

Musketeer · October 22, 2008, 02:18 PM

I would think the pick pocket either feeling the hard metal lump on my waistband or in my pocket would be a HUGE warning sign to them that there is a strong chance they are trying to rob a cop...

Getting an IWB gun from me would be really fun, especially since in crowds I tend to keep my right elbow against the weapon to prevent people from bumping it. I also always try to avoid having people idle around behind me. For pocket carry it would never be able to be removed without noticing as the pocket holster hooks the pocket on the way out and a Stainless J frame has some noticeable weight to it. I also tend to keep my hand near the pocket when close to others.

If you are open carrying... well, you take your risks.

Musketeer · October 22, 2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

I travel a lot, most recently (week before last) to Barcelona. Anyone who has ever traveled there knows that the pickpocketers on Las Ramblas are crazy.

Never been there but I understand from my travels to Switzerland and Italy that many of these gangs of youth in Europe are Gypsy (seriously, there was a large group living in a field just outside Biel the last time I was there) and over watched by older members who will step in and get violent if one of the pick pockets is confronted / cornered.

chrisp0410 · October 22, 2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Never been there but I understand from my travels to Switzerland and Italy that many of these gangs of youth in Europe are Gypsy (seriously, there was a large group living in a field just outside Biel the last time I was there) and over watched by older members who will step in and get violent if one of the pick pockets is confronted / cornered.

You do have a lot of those gypsy gangs. I know exactly what you mean. Often times, they will employ a person begging for cash by holding a note with a picture, the note saying something like, "My father needs an operation, etc." If you give money, an overseer will see where you return you wallet and the beggar will gauge how much you have in your wallet. Some of these are beggars working alone or in small groups but some are also working with pickpocketers.

You also have the one or two person drug adicts looking to score for their next fix. You never know who is going to be on the prowl.

Chrisp0410

Erik · October 22, 2008, 09:28 PM

Is there documentation that a pickpocket has EVER lifted a pistol successfully?

glyn · October 29, 2008, 11:49 PM

I was in Paris a about 20 years ago,went to watch the England France Rugby international.After the game of course mwe have hit several bars a little tipsey.Got into a crowded area,friend of mine wearing a leather safari jacket had his wallet in his top left hand pocket,the pickpocket actually slit the bottom of the pocke and got his wallet.

Hemicuda · October 30, 2008, 08:46 AM

QUOTE: "Getting an IWB gun from me would be really fun, especially since in crowds I tend to keep my right elbow against the weapon to prevent people from bumping it."

you have your ELBOW over your IWB?

how do you accomplish this? either you are built like an ape, with REALLY long arms, or do you wear your pants up around your chest, like an old man?

IWB - In WAIST Band... and not very many humans have the waistband of their pants at elbow level... unless they are 95 years old...

Musketeer · October 30, 2008, 09:12 AM

Quote:

you have your ELBOW over your IWB?

how do you accomplish this? either you are built like an ape, with REALLY long arms, or do you wear your pants up around your chest, like an old man?

When I IWB my 1911 I have no problem having my elbow right on the grip given where it rides and its cant.

I am also not built like a gorilla. If anything the men in my family are more troll like with arms too short for their bodies as can be seen by the many ill fitting suits I see at weddings and funerals.

News Shooter · October 30, 2008, 09:23 AM

I was in the ferry station in Macau a few years back. I made a phone call on a pay phone and started toward the cab stand. It was jammed with people as always. People started pushing up against me from all sides and I could feel a hand go into my pocket but they were pushing against my arms so hard there was nothing I could. By the time I got turned around all I could see was the backs of their heads disappearing into the crowd.

They got my wallet but not my passport luckily.

The lesson learned (besides carrying anything valuable in your pockets) is that they were watching me use the phone and obviously saw what pocket I returned my wallet to)

After that I bought an ankle pack and carry a dummy wallet when I travel overseas. Of course, I would never show the ankle wallet in public.

Stevie-Ray · October 30, 2008, 09:09 PM

I swear I had 2 pickpockets shadowing me the other day at a casino. I can't stand somebody following me on my heels. The first one followed too closely and turned at every aisle I turned. As I finally turned to face him his eyes immediately averted my gaze and he pretended to sit at a nearby machine. I stood there and watched him for several minutes, thereby forcing him to waste a few coins, until he got up and left. The second, about a half hour later, pretty much did the same thing, and this time I quickly turned and silently got in his face. This one turned white, did a 180, and practically ran in the other direction. I swore to my wife the next one was going to get his arm broke, and had one of these reached for my wallet, that's exactly what would have happened. The wallet, of course, was switched to the front pocket. But nothing else happened. A gun, however, is a no-no in a casino so I was without that.

Quote:

you have your ELBOW over your IWB?

how do you accomplish this? either you are built like an ape, with REALLY long arms, or do you wear your pants up around your chest, like an old man?

When I IWB my 1911 I have no problem having my elbow right on the grip given where it rides and its cant.

Musketeer is right. I am 6'4" 250lbs. and I have no problem wedging my elbow against my Ultra CDP or my HKUSP45C for that matter. It rides in about the same position as my OWB as far as height, and at 2 or 2:30 rather than 3 O'clock. Either way, I can use my elbow for a little support or just for a simple check.

Erik · October 31, 2008, 10:59 AM

Another elbow coverer, with little to no effort required to do so.

Musketeer · October 31, 2008, 11:17 AM

Stevie-Ray,

It would have been interesting if you let him keep following you right up to casino security to report that there is a guy following you who you believe has an illicit motive. I believe most casinos use private security and take a rather dim view of anyone robbing the patrons but them...

Hemicuda · October 31, 2008, 12:04 PM

My waistband is a good 6 or 8 inches below my elbow... even with a canted holster, the top rearmost part of the grip, in my biggest CCW handgun (a Smith 4506) is still 3 to 5 inches below my elbow...

without hunching over sideways, there's no way my elbow would get anywhere near the gun... and I'm built pretty normally... with my waist slightly above my hips... and normal length arms...

I'd like to see a pic of someone, standing normally, shirt tucked in, gun in holster between 2:30 and 4-0-clock, and their elbow touching their gun...

I use a Galco Jak-Slide holster, with a SMith semi-auto about 90% of the time, and I can't achieve elbow contact...

DeathRodent · November 1, 2008, 09:05 PM

If you have a "short torso" it will be easy to cover with your elbow.

October 21, 2008, 08:25 PM	#1
MCab Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Posts: 65	Retention and Pickpocketers What are some tips for keeping a weapon safe from pickpocketing? I've got a passive retention OWB holster (w/ retention screw). What are some other good retention tips for a holstered weapon?

October 21, 2008, 09:37 PM	#2
kpbeckel Member Join Date: September 2, 2008 Posts: 50	I'd say your best bet from getting ANYTHING pick pocketed is to be aware at all times of your surroundings. Don't let your guard down and stay alert. __________________ "Chuck Norris never learned the Way of the Samurai....Chuck Norris IS the Way of the Samurai. "

October 22, 2008, 01:47 PM	#4
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	I don't own a holster or a pocket that someone could pick a 1911 out of and I would not know it, . . . or my .380 for that matter. Something about the word "concealed" leads me to believe that the PP would not even know I have it until he was looking down the barrel of my 1911 wondering what that shiny copper thing was down in the hole with a big dent drilled in the middle of it. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

October 22, 2008, 02:18 PM	#6
Musketeer Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2005 Posts: 3,733	I would think the pick pocket either feeling the hard metal lump on my waistband or in my pocket would be a HUGE warning sign to them that there is a strong chance they are trying to rob a cop... Getting an IWB gun from me would be really fun, especially since in crowds I tend to keep my right elbow against the weapon to prevent people from bumping it. I also always try to avoid having people idle around behind me. For pocket carry it would never be able to be removed without noticing as the pocket holster hooks the pocket on the way out and a Stainless J frame has some noticeable weight to it. I also tend to keep my hand near the pocket when close to others. If you are open carrying... well, you take your risks. __________________ "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

October 22, 2008, 09:28 PM	#9
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	Is there documentation that a pickpocket has EVER lifted a pistol successfully? __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

October 21, 2008, 10:05 PM	#3
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	The best places for dips are the places you probably wont be carrying like the NYC Subway, Moscow Metro or vatican Square WildyeggspotterAlaska TM

October 22, 2008, 02:07 PM	#5
chrisp0410 Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2008 Posts: 108	I travel a lot, most recently (week before last) to Barcelona. Anyone who has ever traveled there knows that the pickpocketers on Las Ramblas are crazy. The problem with being pickpocketed isn't so much that you don't feel yourself being pickpocketed, it is actually getting the pickpocketer once it has happened. Typically, a pickpocketer will bump into you, possibly even knock you over in the middle of a crowd. During the instant you are startled is when the actual pickpocketing actually takes place. And remember, the person who bumped you is not necessarily the one who pickpocketed you! As you are in a crowd, it is very difficult to determine who actually got your camera, wallet or pistol. And by the time you look around, get your bearing, etc., the pickpocketer may have already handed it off to another accomplice. When I feel I'm in an area that is conducive to pickpocketers, I place my wallet in my front pocket. I move to the outside of large concentrations of people and I keep alert. If you look like an easy mark, you may be pickpocketed. If you appear to have a handle on your surroundings, the vermin will target easier prey. Chrisp0410

October 29, 2008, 11:49 PM	#10
glyn Junior Member Join Date: October 27, 2008 Posts: 9	I was in Paris a about 20 years ago,went to watch the England France Rugby international.After the game of course mwe have hit several bars a little tipsey.Got into a crowded area,friend of mine wearing a leather safari jacket had his wallet in his top left hand pocket,the pickpocket actually slit the bottom of the pocke and got his wallet.

October 30, 2008, 08:46 AM	#11
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	Musketeer... got a question for you... QUOTE: "Getting an IWB gun from me would be really fun, especially since in crowds I tend to keep my right elbow against the weapon to prevent people from bumping it." you have your ELBOW over your IWB? how do you accomplish this? either you are built like an ape, with REALLY long arms, or do you wear your pants up around your chest, like an old man? IWB - In *WAIST* Band... and not very many humans have the waistband of their pants at elbow level... unless they are 95 years old... __________________ Hemi. gun and car collector. Rare cars, and rarer guns.

October 30, 2008, 09:23 AM	#13
News Shooter Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2005 Posts: 332	I was in the ferry station in Macau a few years back. I made a phone call on a pay phone and started toward the cab stand. It was jammed with people as always. People started pushing up against me from all sides and I could feel a hand go into my pocket but they were pushing against my arms so hard there was nothing I could. By the time I got turned around all I could see was the backs of their heads disappearing into the crowd. They got my wallet but not my passport luckily. The lesson learned (besides carrying anything valuable in your pockets) is that they were watching me use the phone and obviously saw what pocket I returned my wallet to) After that I bought an ankle pack and carry a dummy wallet when I travel overseas. Of course, I would never show the ankle wallet in public.

October 31, 2008, 10:59 AM	#15
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	Another elbow coverer, with little to no effort required to do so. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

October 31, 2008, 11:17 AM	#16
Musketeer Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2005 Posts: 3,733	Stevie-Ray, It would have been interesting if you let him keep following you right up to casino security to report that there is a guy following you who you believe has an illicit motive. I believe most casinos use private security and take a rather dim view of anyone robbing the patrons but them... __________________ "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

October 31, 2008, 12:04 PM	#17
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	My waistband is a good 6 or 8 inches below my elbow... even with a canted holster, the top rearmost part of the grip, in my biggest CCW handgun (a Smith 4506) is still 3 to 5 inches below my elbow... without hunching over sideways, there's no way my elbow would get anywhere near the gun... and I'm built pretty normally... with my waist slightly above my hips... and normal length arms... I'd like to see a pic of someone, standing normally, shirt tucked in, gun in holster between 2:30 and 4-0-clock, and their elbow touching their gun... I use a Galco Jak-Slide holster, with a SMith semi-auto about 90% of the time, and I can't achieve elbow contact... __________________ Hemi. gun and car collector. Rare cars, and rarer guns.

November 1, 2008, 09:05 PM	#18
DeathRodent Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2006 Posts: 209	If you have a "short torso" it will be easy to cover with your elbow. __________________ You cannot arm slaves and expect them to remain slaves, nor can you disarm a free people and expect them to remain free.

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