Browning A-5 riot gun

Millbilly · February 8, 2010, 02:00 AM

Has anyone ever seen a Browning auto 5 riot or trench gun ? I was thinking about building one and need some ideas or some pics...........OR is this a bad idea ? I have an old auto 5 with a busted stock and a short barrel and thought it would make a great bedroom gun...

mxsailor803 · February 8, 2010, 02:09 AM

belgium or japan gun?

rbernie · February 8, 2010, 09:31 AM

I have a cut-down A5. Since the gun is recoil-operated (and the mass of the barrel factors into the recoil action), the biggest issue you will have is the loss of barrel mass. My 21" barrel needs to have the friction rings set up for heavy loads to function with light birdshot; I do not know if you can go any shorter and not wind up battering the action to death....

jaguarxk120 · February 8, 2010, 10:15 AM

Take a look on Auction Arms web site, Under shotguns/Browning, there is listed two police/riot guns from South Africa, one is a eight shot model.

Scorch · February 8, 2010, 12:18 PM

The US military used just about any shotgun they could get during WW1 and WW2, including A5s and Rem Model 11s. I have seen a couple of pictures of A5 shotguns with vented sheet metal upper hanguards and about 20" barrels.

Lee Lapin · February 8, 2010, 06:43 PM

There was never a production trench gun in the US based on the Browning. In fact there weren't any Browning riot guns made in WW2 for the US military either- the Browning factory was in Belgium, and got overrun by the Germans. There was no way they could manufacture shotguns for the US government after that. FN had licensed production of the Browning design to Remington in the early 1900s due to tariffs, so we had far more Remington Model 11s than early Brownings here in the US.

Browning produced what were called 'messenger guns' in the early 1900s, short barreled security type shotguns we would call riot guns today. That was the formal designation in their 1903 catalog (Grade No. 0, Messenger Gun). At the time, short barreled shotguns of all types- double barrels, pumps or semiautos- were often called messenger guns. They were intended for law enforcement, express company or bank guards, railway police etc. as fighting shotguns. So the history of Browning fighting shotguns goes way back.

There were Remington Model 11 riot guns used by the US military, Remington Sportsman riot guns (the 3-shot magazine Model 11, basically) and Savage 720 riot guns, but no Brownings. Browning autos were popular among partisans in Europe who fought the Germans, but as the war wore on ammunition dried up and the shotguns were abandoned for captured German military weapons, or the weapons supplied by the Allies who were supporting and guiding the partisan efforts (OSS, SOE, Jedburghs etc. ( http://ossinitaly.org/index.html , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_...tegic_Services etc.)

And no one never really figured a way to make trench guns out of the long recoil type action shotguns. There were a few experiments and prototypes, but never a production model. Remington built a Model 11 trench gun prototype for WW1 in 1918 that had a sleeve or jacket around the barrel to which the bayonet lug was attached. The barrel recoiled inside the jacket which surrounded the barrel. If you think about how the long recoil action works, you'll understand why putting a bayonet on the barrel itself and sticking something with it was a Bad Idea. The barrel jacket idea worked, but it was never produced.

A number of US outlaws in the Depression era liked cut-down semiauto shotguns, John Dillinger, Clyde Barrow, and Bonnie Parker among them. They chopped the guns off as short as possible and didn't care how much they battered themselves- they tended not to keep guns very long anyway. rbernie is correct in his advice above about not taking too much off the barrel. And how much you can cut down the stock is limited by the bolt return spring tube that goes about halfway back. Here's a pic of Bonnie funnin' around with Clyde, with a cut-down Remington- http://www.accuracyproject.org/cbe-Barrow,Clyde.html . They liked having their pictures taken.

There were a good many sporting type shotguns used by the military in WW2 as training guns to teach budding aerial gunners (waist and turret gunners on heavy bombers) how to hit moving targets. And there were sporting guns owned by installation recreation activities used for skeet and trap shooting. Those guns were all military owned, and military marked. I'm told there were some Brownings in that number, I don't know if they were WW2 era or not.

Brownings were used by the British in Malaya in the guerrilla war there, which also saw the deployment of the Remington 870 in its first debut as a fighting shotgun not long after its introduction. The Rhodesians also used the Browning in their fight against communist guerrillas. That long-magazine Browning 'jungle gun' mentioned above as being listed at the auction site was prototyped in the 1960s, and at least a few of them saw production. It's an interesting variation, and I find it sort of surprising it wasn't kept in production.

Get your hands on a copy of Swearengen's The world's Fighting Shotguns for pictures of most of the things mentioned above... or see Canfield's book- http://www.brucecanfield.com/uscombatshotguns.html .

hth,

lpl

Millbilly · February 8, 2010, 10:25 PM

Its a Belgium, I might just keep it as a shooter......I bought it as a Rough shooter on GB. Thanks for all the info, I didn't realize it was that big of a deal to cut it down. I guess I will go with a pump gun....

mxsailor803 · February 9, 2010, 06:42 PM

lol not to mention the belgium a5's are more valuable and disarable. so good choice

GrandmasterB · February 9, 2010, 08:56 PM

Saw a pic of one once and had to save a copy of it -- makes for a sexy setup

impalacustom · February 10, 2010, 07:39 AM

Here you go http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=157209100

gyvel · February 10, 2010, 09:56 AM

Actually, there were "Browning" shotguns made during WWII. Remington, though whatever arrangement, made a version of the Model 11 that was labeled "Browning Three Shot." If I recall, the parts were NOT compatible with an FN produced Browning, only with other Remingtons. When the war ended, production ceased, and FN once again began manufacturing Browning shotguns (i.e. those that were intended to be sold under the Browning name in North America).

Lee Lapin · February 10, 2010, 03:48 PM

So they say at Wisner's anyway...

lpl
=====

http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional...mington_11.htm

snip
During World War II when importation from Belgium of the Browning FN guns became impossible due to Nazi U Boats, Browning had Remington produce the Remington, (with slight cosmetic modifications) & marked it as Browning for sale in the US.
snip

gyvel · February 10, 2010, 08:38 PM

Quote:

snip
During World War II when importation from Belgium of the Browning FN guns became impossible due to Nazi U Boats, Browning had Remington produce the Remington, (with slight cosmetic modifications) & marked it as Browning for sale in the US.
snip

Exactly. I've seen a few of these and used to work with one of Remington's stockmakers who first told me about these back in the 80s.

DG45 · February 11, 2010, 01:34 PM

I'd have to see these real short-barreled, recoil-operated Rem Model 11's and Browning A-5's fire a few rounds, and know what kind of rounds were being fired in them before I'd consider buying one. Otherwise I'd be afraid that the barrel weight would be too light for the gun to cycle ammunition through properly. I'm not saying they won't, I'm just saying that I'd want to see it operate before I laid any money down.

Dave McC · February 11, 2010, 05:20 PM

I've run across a few old 11s with shorter barrels,including the family gun I had that's now a cousin's pride and joy. That one has 23" of barrel behind the Dial A Choke.

I had wondered from time to time why they ran less than 26" even with the deluxe Polychokes they ALL had.I thought it was for balance. Betcha it was to keep weight up and prevent battering more than to keep the COG near the middle of the gun.

gyvel · February 12, 2010, 01:45 AM

Model 11s were purchased by the military with 20" cylinder bore barrels and marked "U.S." I have one. Works fine.

Millbilly · February 17, 2010, 10:21 PM

I bought a 20" barrel for my A-5 from a friend. it has a browning beed on the end and is a mod choke. (has the two stars on it **) stamped Browning and ST louis on it......The choke seems to be mod when compaired to a 28" barrel I have. Did browning make such a barrel or has it been cut ?

scottm21166 · February 21, 2010, 07:46 PM

it should work fine, I have an original and it isn't good for much else

well, I can hunt with it just by putting on the longer barrel but it just hides behind the post at the head of my side of the bed

johnbt · February 26, 2010, 09:43 PM

I saw one of these once. It was a handful, even empty.

"Browning Auto-5 shotgun of Belgian manufacture, special version for police use, with factory extended 8-round magazine"

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh41-e.htm

LukeA · February 27, 2010, 01:15 AM

That looks like a cricket bat with a shotgun action attached.

DG45 · March 3, 2010, 02:25 AM

My wife and I watched Oh Brother Where Art Thou? on TV tonight. That was about the 5th time I've seen it and its still funny, but I noticed something in it tonight that I'd never noticed before. In one of the chain gang scenes, one of the guards is on horseback and it sure looks one of these short-barrelled Remington Model 11 or Browning A-5 riot guns he's carrying. In another scene in the movie, the main characters are watching a movie in a theatre when the door opens and this prison officer in a WWI style round brimed campaign hat comes in. Then he blows a whistle and all the prisoners come in. That guard too has what looks like either a Model 11 or A-5 short barrelled riot gun. It fit the picture and the era perfectly.

February 8, 2010, 02:00 AM	#1
Millbilly Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Location: Cooks Mills Illinois,,,,Not even close to Chicago Posts: 47	Browning A-5 riot gun Has anyone ever seen a Browning auto 5 riot or trench gun ? I was thinking about building one and need some ideas or some pics...........OR is this a bad idea ? I have an old auto 5 with a busted stock and a short barrel and thought it would make a great bedroom gun... __________________ I'll puke if the jukebox plays John Couger one more time......:barf:

February 8, 2010, 09:31 AM	#3
rbernie Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2004 Location: Plain Ol', TX Posts: 713	I have a cut-down A5. Since the gun is recoil-operated (and the mass of the barrel factors into the recoil action), the biggest issue you will have is the loss of barrel mass. My 21" barrel needs to have the friction rings set up for heavy loads to function with light birdshot; I do not know if you can go any shorter and not wind up battering the action to death.... __________________ -A conclusion is not a destination, it's simply a convenient place to stop thinking.- -Reading a thing doesn't automatically make it so; repeating it doesn't necessarily make it any truer.- -Every Texan should be a member of the Texas State Rifle Association.

February 8, 2010, 12:18 PM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	The US military used just about any shotgun they could get during WW1 and WW2, including A5s and Rem Model 11s. I have seen a couple of pictures of A5 shotguns with vented sheet metal upper hanguards and about 20" barrels. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

February 8, 2010, 06:43 PM	#6
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	There was never a production trench gun in the US based on the Browning. In fact there weren't any Browning riot guns made in WW2 for the US military either- the Browning factory was in Belgium, and got overrun by the Germans. There was no way they could manufacture shotguns for the US government after that. FN had licensed production of the Browning design to Remington in the early 1900s due to tariffs, so we had far more Remington Model 11s than early Brownings here in the US. Browning produced what were called 'messenger guns' in the early 1900s, short barreled security type shotguns we would call riot guns today. That was the formal designation in their 1903 catalog (Grade No. 0, Messenger Gun). At the time, short barreled shotguns of all types- double barrels, pumps or semiautos- were often called messenger guns. They were intended for law enforcement, express company or bank guards, railway police etc. as fighting shotguns. So the history of Browning fighting shotguns goes way back. There were Remington Model 11 riot guns used by the US military, Remington Sportsman riot guns (the 3-shot magazine Model 11, basically) and Savage 720 riot guns, but no Brownings. Browning autos were popular among partisans in Europe who fought the Germans, but as the war wore on ammunition dried up and the shotguns were abandoned for captured German military weapons, or the weapons supplied by the Allies who were supporting and guiding the partisan efforts (OSS, SOE, Jedburghs etc. ( http://ossinitaly.org/index.html , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_...tegic_Services etc.) And no one never really figured a way to make trench guns out of the long recoil type action shotguns. There were a few experiments and prototypes, but never a production model. Remington built a Model 11 trench gun prototype for WW1 in 1918 that had a sleeve or jacket around the barrel to which the bayonet lug was attached. The barrel recoiled inside the jacket which surrounded the barrel. If you think about how the long recoil action works, you'll understand why putting a bayonet on the barrel itself and sticking something with it was a Bad Idea. The barrel jacket idea worked, but it was never produced. A number of US outlaws in the Depression era liked cut-down semiauto shotguns, John Dillinger, Clyde Barrow, and Bonnie Parker among them. They chopped the guns off as short as possible and didn't care how much they battered themselves- they tended not to keep guns very long anyway. rbernie is correct in his advice above about not taking too much off the barrel. And how much you can cut down the stock is limited by the bolt return spring tube that goes about halfway back. Here's a pic of Bonnie funnin' around with Clyde, with a cut-down Remington- http://www.accuracyproject.org/cbe-Barrow,Clyde.html . They liked having their pictures taken. There were a good many sporting type shotguns used by the military in WW2 as training guns to teach budding aerial gunners (waist and turret gunners on heavy bombers) how to hit moving targets. And there were sporting guns owned by installation recreation activities used for skeet and trap shooting. Those guns were all military owned, and military marked. I'm told there were some Brownings in that number, I don't know if they were WW2 era or not. Brownings were used by the British in Malaya in the guerrilla war there, which also saw the deployment of the Remington 870 in its first debut as a fighting shotgun not long after its introduction. The Rhodesians also used the Browning in their fight against communist guerrillas. That long-magazine Browning 'jungle gun' mentioned above as being listed at the auction site was prototyped in the 1960s, and at least a few of them saw production. It's an interesting variation, and I find it sort of surprising it wasn't kept in production. Get your hands on a copy of Swearengen's The world's Fighting Shotguns for pictures of most of the things mentioned above... or see Canfield's book- http://www.brucecanfield.com/uscombatshotguns.html . hth, lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill. Last edited by Lee Lapin; February 8, 2010 at 07:33 PM.

February 8, 2010, 10:25 PM	#7
Millbilly Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Location: Cooks Mills Illinois,,,,Not even close to Chicago Posts: 47	Its a Belgium, I might just keep it as a shooter......I bought it as a Rough shooter on GB. Thanks for all the info, I didn't realize it was that big of a deal to cut it down. I guess I will go with a pump gun.... __________________ I'll puke if the jukebox plays John Couger one more time......:barf:

February 8, 2010, 02:09 AM	#2
mxsailor803 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2010 Location: SC Posts: 1,344	belgium or japan gun?

February 8, 2010, 10:15 AM	#4
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Take a look on Auction Arms web site, Under shotguns/Browning, there is listed two police/riot guns from South Africa, one is a eight shot model.

February 9, 2010, 06:42 PM	#8
mxsailor803 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2010 Location: SC Posts: 1,344	lol not to mention the belgium a5's are more valuable and disarable. so good choice

February 9, 2010, 08:56 PM	#9
GrandmasterB Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2000 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 205	Saw a pic of one once and had to save a copy of it -- makes for a sexy setup __________________ Romans 5:8

February 10, 2010, 07:39 AM	#10
impalacustom Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 492	Here you go http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=157209100

February 10, 2010, 09:56 AM	#11
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Actually, there were "Browning" shotguns made during WWII. Remington, though whatever arrangement, made a version of the Model 11 that was labeled "Browning Three Shot." If I recall, the parts were NOT compatible with an FN produced Browning, only with other Remingtons. When the war ended, production ceased, and FN once again began manufacturing Browning shotguns (i.e. those that were intended to be sold under the Browning name in North America).

February 10, 2010, 03:48 PM	#12
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	So they say at Wisner's anyway... lpl ===== http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional...mington_11.htm snip During World War II when importation from Belgium of the Browning FN guns became impossible due to Nazi U Boats, Browning had Remington produce the Remington, (with slight cosmetic modifications) & marked it as Browning for sale in the US. snip __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

February 11, 2010, 01:34 PM	#14
DG45 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Posts: 904	I'd have to see these real short-barreled, recoil-operated Rem Model 11's and Browning A-5's fire a few rounds, and know what kind of rounds were being fired in them before I'd consider buying one. Otherwise I'd be afraid that the barrel weight would be too light for the gun to cycle ammunition through properly. I'm not saying they won't, I'm just saying that I'd want to see it operate before I laid any money down.

February 11, 2010, 05:20 PM	#15
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I've run across a few old 11s with shorter barrels,including the family gun I had that's now a cousin's pride and joy. That one has 23" of barrel behind the Dial A Choke. I had wondered from time to time why they ran less than 26" even with the deluxe Polychokes they ALL had.I thought it was for balance. Betcha it was to keep weight up and prevent battering more than to keep the COG near the middle of the gun.

February 12, 2010, 01:45 AM	#16
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Model 11s were purchased by the military with 20" cylinder bore barrels and marked "U.S." I have one. Works fine.

February 17, 2010, 10:21 PM	#17
Millbilly Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Location: Cooks Mills Illinois,,,,Not even close to Chicago Posts: 47	I bought a 20" barrel for my A-5 from a friend. it has a browning beed on the end and is a mod choke. (has the two stars on it **) stamped Browning and ST louis on it......The choke seems to be mod when compaired to a 28" barrel I have. Did browning make such a barrel or has it been cut ? __________________ I'll puke if the jukebox plays John Couger one more time......:barf:

February 21, 2010, 07:46 PM	#18
scottm21166 Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Posts: 1	it should work fine, I have an original and it isn't good for much else well, I can hunt with it just by putting on the longer barrel but it just hides behind the post at the head of my side of the bed

February 26, 2010, 09:43 PM	#19
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	I saw one of these once. It was a handful, even empty. "Browning Auto-5 shotgun of Belgian manufacture, special version for police use, with factory extended 8-round magazine" http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh41-e.htm

February 27, 2010, 01:15 AM	#20
LukeA Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2009 Posts: 542	That looks like a cricket bat with a shotgun action attached.

March 3, 2010, 02:25 AM	#21
DG45 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Posts: 904	My wife and I watched Oh Brother Where Art Thou? on TV tonight. That was about the 5th time I've seen it and its still funny, but I noticed something in it tonight that I'd never noticed before. In one of the chain gang scenes, one of the guards is on horseback and it sure looks one of these short-barrelled Remington Model 11 or Browning A-5 riot guns he's carrying. In another scene in the movie, the main characters are watching a movie in a theatre when the door opens and this prison officer in a WWI style round brimed campaign hat comes in. Then he blows a whistle and all the prisoners come in. That guard too has what looks like either a Model 11 or A-5 short barrelled riot gun. It fit the picture and the era perfectly.