Inverted bullets

Schuy · February 12, 2010, 09:55 PM

In a magazine years ago I remember reading something about setting your bullet upside down in the brass. I didnt think much about it at the time but today as I was loading some rounds I was thinking about it and thought it might be kinda fun to try just to try. Does anyone know about this or has anybody tried this?
Schuy

ammo.crafter · February 12, 2010, 10:06 PM

I did this with .38 spcl using double-ended hollow cavity lead bullets. It is my understanding that the round opens up very fast and delivers superior mushroom/knockdown.
Also, accuracy is terribe, but this round is intended for very close defensive use.

Hammonje · February 12, 2010, 10:32 PM

What???? No....wound probably b/c they tumble.

jmorris · February 13, 2010, 12:36 AM

Some rifle bullets are more stable loaded backwards at subsonic velocities.

**Shane Tuttle** · February 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

You mean seating them this way? If so, then I would say absolutely not. The chamber pressures would be awful difficult to calculate safely.

Lavid2002 · February 13, 2010, 01:25 AM

Seems sketchy. I do it with .117 pellets for good mushrooming on birds and chipmunks. Accuracy isnt effected from my studies with a pellet rifle.

I tested a lot with accuracy and after several tests with ballistics gel it was apparent that the lead skirt used to air in velocity was great for mushrooming where pellets would typically not deform.

I see no advantages to doing this to center fire cartridges, however.

Old Grump · February 13, 2010, 01:26 AM

I did in 76 with my 45 and found I couldn't hit paper at 25 yards with it. It was an experiment to make a self defense load with a light load of bullseye for the wife and then decided that it wasn't worth it. Even LRN's made a big hole and LSWC not only gave me a confidence factor they were accurate. Never needed it and I'm pretty sure a doctored round like that might have been looked on unfavorably. Still have a few in a parts bin in my shop but I doubt I will ever shoot them.

hickstick_10 · February 13, 2010, 01:55 AM

a writer tried it in handloader magazine, along with filing the tips of at 45 degrees and cutting a notch near the base of the bullet, all this to see how bullet deformaties affect accuracy. He used a 30-06

inverse bullets functioned like wadcutters, and the chamber pressures were above safe limits (he used a pressure gun at Nosler I beleive)

Accuracy was poor, compared to a properly orientated bullet, so I see no point in why you would wat to try it.

Dont do it.

Stick to the information in your reloading manual

Jim243 · February 13, 2010, 02:09 AM

Schuy

I believe what you read was, that with the cases in a loading block, after putting the powder in each rifle case, some reloaders place a bullet on top of that case upside down to indicate that it has been loaded with powder and they will not then try to place a second charge of powder in that case. After all the cases have been loaded with powder, they then remove the bullet and turn it the correct way when seating the bullet.

That was when almost all loading was done on single stage presses.

Jim

Lawyer Daggit · February 13, 2010, 04:59 AM

It was an old world war 1 trick used by both Germans and English said to increase stopping power, if caught with a gun so loaded one could count on the enemies displeasure.

SL1 · February 13, 2010, 07:25 AM

I have been planning on trying this, some day, using a 90 grain Sierra HP in a .270 Winchester, with a reduced load of SR-4759. That load shoots very small groups with the bullet oriented nose-first. My intend of shooting it base-first would be to make a small-game load for the .270.

I can see why turning the bullet around would increase pressure, because there is more lead inside the case that way. But, I don't see why the pressure would be hard to calculate. Just fill an unsized case with water, push-in the bullet, and weigh it. Subtract the weights of the empty case and the bullet and you have the case capacity in grains of water. Of course, you need to figure-out the seating depth to get the bullet the proper distance from the rifling before you do that. These rounds would look short.

I haven't done this yet because I haven't had the time to test the results properly. Accuracy is just one question. Terminal ballistics are harder to test properly, and they are the reason that I would consider this at all. I don't want the HP bullet to expand in small game, but I don't want it to just push everything out of the way without doing much damage on the way through, either, like a Spitzer FMJ.

Contraty to a post above, I have read that accuracy was good with inverted bullets in tests done by some writers.

SL1

Mike / Tx · February 13, 2010, 09:06 AM

Loaded the Star 146gr HBWC in some 38 Spcl's which were then used on pest raccoons. Simply did it initially to see if it actually would work which it did, making a very wide mushroom. The other reason was I had a couple of thousand of them on hand, and didn't want to load up a higher velocity JHP to simply dispatch the coons. Also the load I used did not exit and DID completely put them out of commission on the spot.

Worked great for the intended purpose and did not damage the feeders which was also another consideration.

Would I suggest it for any other purpose, probably not, but then again I was bored, had a lot of powder and bullets, and a big problem with coons ripping feeders to pieces on a weekly basis.

**Shane Tuttle** · February 13, 2010, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SL1

But, I don't see why the pressure would be hard to calculate.

Your method of calculating is noteworthy. However, without gobs of data that bullet and powder manufacturers to back my findings, it isn't worth the experimentation for me. I don't like to deviate to this level when experimenting with reloads.

Jim, your statement is what I was originally thinking. I just didn't get it posted due to absentmindedness...

David Wile · February 13, 2010, 12:06 PM

Hey folks,

My father used to load .30 caliber jacketed bullets backwards for use on turkeys with the idea that the bullet would not expand and ruin as much meat. He killed a few turkeys that way, but he missed a lot more, and he was actually a very good shooter.

I tried to get him to use full metal jacket bullets loaded in the regular way, but somehow he and a couple of his friends had it in their minds that the flat end of the jacketed bullet would work better. For the birds he did kill, he was correct in that the bullet simply punched a .30 caliber hole through the turkeys. The problem was that his regular soft nosed hunting bullets did not fly well when loaded backwards, and they would produce a pattern in excess of two feet at 50 yards. That same bullet when loaded with its spitzer tip forward would shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards. There was no indication of high pressures when shooting the bullets backwards. The cases and the primers looked the same whether shooting the bullets in either direction, so I doubt very much that any change in chamber pressure was significant.

I also tried to get my father to shoot my 150 grain gas checked Loverign designed cast bullets at turkeys. I told him they were cast hard enough to go straight through a turkey without mushrooming at all, but he wouldn't go for that idea either.

I never could understand why my dad and his buddies had the idea that simply turning the bullet around on their deer loads would result in anything but poor accuracy.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Pbearperry · February 13, 2010, 12:12 PM

Years ago,I used to load 148 gr HBWC backwards in 38 Spl. They worked well in putting injured animals down.I put one in the head of a ST. Bernard that was badly injured by a car and it was an instant kill.They were loaded at about 800 fps MV.

TheNewGuy · February 13, 2010, 01:20 PM

Sure. See attachment.

50 yards, everything is the same, except bullets were seated the "right way" on the left and the "wrong way" on the right. Both are five-shot groups; .308. Fliers were first shots out of a clean/cold bore. Aim point was center of the bull above respective group. I don't have a chrono, but it looks like the backwards bullets were moving a bit faster since they're about an inch higher. And obviously, they were more accurate.

F. Guffey · February 13, 2010, 01:49 PM

Then there was the suggestion loading a bullet backwards would aid in cleaning the barrel, seems the thinking was dirt, grit and grime was not removed by a tapered bullet, the thinking of using a flat face bullet would push foreign material put ahead of it, with a soft bullet it seems foreign material would embed into the bullet and if the barrel was dirty with dirt, grit and grime and did pile up in front of the bullet it would increase pressure behind it, not a good ideal if the pressures climbs to a safe level for the receiver and first half of the barrel but when the pressure is too high for the thin part of the barrel, it can cause the barrel to open up as though it had a obstruction.

It sound cute, I do not do it.

F. Guffey

bignz · February 14, 2010, 12:35 PM

I've always understood that the condition of the base of the bullet are critical to quality flight and reliable pressure levels. With an inverted bullet I could care less about the point (wadcutter front) but it would totally mess with the more critical base.

If I want to shoot wadcutters I will get them, I think I'll pass on inverting a round nose bullets.

Schuy · February 14, 2010, 03:56 PM

Wow Thanks everyone! This was my first time using this forum, great info from all. Very impressed! Thanks again

Schuy

Edward429451 · February 14, 2010, 05:46 PM

The closest I ever came to something like this was to load two 95 gr .355 bullets in Speers 44 mag shotshell capsules, base to base so one slug was inverted. I enjoy great success with these and use them against rabbits. 6 gr of Unique under them for ~1050 fps IIRC, and they both strike within 1 inch at ~30 ft.

February 12, 2010, 09:55 PM	#1
Schuy Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2010 Posts: 6	Inverted bullets In a magazine years ago I remember reading something about setting your bullet upside down in the brass. I didnt think much about it at the time but today as I was loading some rounds I was thinking about it and thought it might be kinda fun to try just to try. Does anyone know about this or has anybody tried this? Schuy

February 12, 2010, 10:06 PM	#2
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	invert I did this with .38 spcl using double-ended hollow cavity lead bullets. It is my understanding that the round opens up very fast and delivers superior mushroom/knockdown. Also, accuracy is terribe, but this round is intended for very close defensive use. __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

February 13, 2010, 12:57 AM	#5
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	You mean seating them this way? If so, then I would say absolutely not. The chamber pressures would be awful difficult to calculate safely. __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

February 13, 2010, 01:25 AM	#6
Lavid2002 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2007 Posts: 2,568	Seems sketchy. I do it with .117 pellets for good mushrooming on birds and chipmunks. Accuracy isnt effected from my studies with a pellet rifle. I tested a lot with accuracy and after several tests with ballistics gel it was apparent that the lead skirt used to air in velocity was great for mushrooming where pellets would typically not deform. I see no advantages to doing this to center fire cartridges, however. __________________ Math>Grammar

February 13, 2010, 01:26 AM	#7
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	I did in 76 with my 45 and found I couldn't hit paper at 25 yards with it. It was an experiment to make a self defense load with a light load of bullseye for the wife and then decided that it wasn't worth it. Even LRN's made a big hole and LSWC not only gave me a confidence factor they were accurate. Never needed it and I'm pretty sure a doctored round like that might have been looked on unfavorably. Still have a few in a parts bin in my shop but I doubt I will ever shoot them. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

February 12, 2010, 10:32 PM	#3
Hammonje Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2010 Location: Lilburn, GA Posts: 117	What???? No....wound probably b/c they tumble.

February 13, 2010, 12:36 AM	#4
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	Some rifle bullets are more stable loaded backwards at subsonic velocities.

February 13, 2010, 01:55 AM	#8
hickstick_10 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 477	a writer tried it in handloader magazine, along with filing the tips of at 45 degrees and cutting a notch near the base of the bullet, all this to see how bullet deformaties affect accuracy. He used a 30-06 inverse bullets functioned like wadcutters, and the chamber pressures were above safe limits (he used a pressure gun at Nosler I beleive) Accuracy was poor, compared to a properly orientated bullet, so I see no point in why you would wat to try it. Dont do it. Stick to the information in your reloading manual

February 13, 2010, 02:09 AM	#9
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Schuy I believe what you read was, that with the cases in a loading block, after putting the powder in each rifle case, some reloaders place a bullet on top of that case upside down to indicate that it has been loaded with powder and they will not then try to place a second charge of powder in that case. After all the cases have been loaded with powder, they then remove the bullet and turn it the correct way when seating the bullet. That was when almost all loading was done on single stage presses. Jim

February 13, 2010, 04:59 AM	#10
Lawyer Daggit Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 1,181	It was an old world war 1 trick used by both Germans and English said to increase stopping power, if caught with a gun so loaded one could count on the enemies displeasure.

February 13, 2010, 07:25 AM	#11
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	I have been planning on trying this, some day, using a 90 grain Sierra HP in a .270 Winchester, with a reduced load of SR-4759. That load shoots very small groups with the bullet oriented nose-first. My intend of shooting it base-first would be to make a small-game load for the .270. I can see why turning the bullet around would increase pressure, because there is more lead inside the case that way. But, I don't see why the pressure would be hard to calculate. Just fill an unsized case with water, push-in the bullet, and weigh it. Subtract the weights of the empty case and the bullet and you have the case capacity in grains of water. Of course, you need to figure-out the seating depth to get the bullet the proper distance from the rifling before you do that. These rounds would look short. I haven't done this yet because I haven't had the time to test the results properly. Accuracy is just one question. Terminal ballistics are harder to test properly, and they are the reason that I would consider this at all. I don't want the HP bullet to expand in small game, but I don't want it to just push everything out of the way without doing much damage on the way through, either, like a Spitzer FMJ. Contraty to a post above, I have read that accuracy was good with inverted bullets in tests done by some writers. SL1

February 13, 2010, 09:06 AM	#12
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	Loaded the Star 146gr HBWC in some 38 Spcl's which were then used on pest raccoons. Simply did it initially to see if it actually would work which it did, making a very wide mushroom. The other reason was I had a couple of thousand of them on hand, and didn't want to load up a higher velocity JHP to simply dispatch the coons. Also the load I used did not exit and DID completely put them out of commission on the spot. Worked great for the intended purpose and did not damage the feeders which was also another consideration. Would I suggest it for any other purpose, probably not, but then again I was bored, had a lot of powder and bullets, and a big problem with coons ripping feeders to pieces on a weekly basis.

February 13, 2010, 12:06 PM	#14
David Wile Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2001 Location: Mechanicsburg, PA Posts: 585	Hey folks, My father used to load .30 caliber jacketed bullets backwards for use on turkeys with the idea that the bullet would not expand and ruin as much meat. He killed a few turkeys that way, but he missed a lot more, and he was actually a very good shooter. I tried to get him to use full metal jacket bullets loaded in the regular way, but somehow he and a couple of his friends had it in their minds that the flat end of the jacketed bullet would work better. For the birds he did kill, he was correct in that the bullet simply punched a .30 caliber hole through the turkeys. The problem was that his regular soft nosed hunting bullets did not fly well when loaded backwards, and they would produce a pattern in excess of two feet at 50 yards. That same bullet when loaded with its spitzer tip forward would shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards. There was no indication of high pressures when shooting the bullets backwards. The cases and the primers looked the same whether shooting the bullets in either direction, so I doubt very much that any change in chamber pressure was significant. I also tried to get my father to shoot my 150 grain gas checked Loverign designed cast bullets at turkeys. I told him they were cast hard enough to go straight through a turkey without mushrooming at all, but he wouldn't go for that idea either. I never could understand why my dad and his buddies had the idea that simply turning the bullet around on their deer loads would result in anything but poor accuracy. Best wishes, Dave Wile

February 13, 2010, 12:12 PM	#15
Pbearperry Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 283	HBWC reversed Years ago,I used to load 148 gr HBWC backwards in 38 Spl. They worked well in putting injured animals down.I put one in the head of a ST. Bernard that was badly injured by a car and it was an instant kill.They were loaded at about 800 fps MV.

February 13, 2010, 01:49 PM	#17
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Then there was the suggestion loading a bullet backwards would aid in cleaning the barrel, seems the thinking was dirt, grit and grime was not removed by a tapered bullet, the thinking of using a flat face bullet would push foreign material put ahead of it, with a soft bullet it seems foreign material would embed into the bullet and if the barrel was dirty with dirt, grit and grime and did pile up in front of the bullet it would increase pressure behind it, not a good ideal if the pressures climbs to a safe level for the receiver and first half of the barrel but when the pressure is too high for the thin part of the barrel, it can cause the barrel to open up as though it had a obstruction. It sound cute, I do not do it. F. Guffey

February 14, 2010, 12:35 PM	#18
bignz Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Location: North Texas Posts: 196	I've always understood that the condition of the base of the bullet are critical to quality flight and reliable pressure levels. With an inverted bullet I could care less about the point (wadcutter front) but it would totally mess with the more critical base. If I want to shoot wadcutters I will get them, I think I'll pass on inverting a round nose bullets.

February 14, 2010, 03:56 PM	#19
Schuy Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2010 Posts: 6	Thanks Wow Thanks everyone! This was my first time using this forum, great info from all. Very impressed! Thanks again Schuy

February 14, 2010, 05:46 PM	#20
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	The closest I ever came to something like this was to load two 95 gr .355 bullets in Speers 44 mag shotshell capsules, base to base so one slug was inverted. I enjoy great success with these and use them against rabbits. 6 gr of Unique under them for ~1050 fps IIRC, and they both strike within 1 inch at ~30 ft.