Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 and Mk1* differences?

n.perkinsfields · November 18, 2014, 07:51 PM

I have recently acquired a 1942 No4 Mk1* from Canada and am wondering about any major differences. I know one is the bolt and how it is removed, however I am unsure if there is anything else I should know about it and how it differs from the No4 Mk1.
Mostly because I have just purchased an old very used wood set off ebay to refinish and mount to the gun in place of the ram line sporterized plastic that someone previously put on it. I'd rather have the gun in it's former and much more beautiful condition.

Danny Creasy · November 18, 2014, 08:28 PM

I am taking a stab at this from memory. So, I could be mistaken.

Up through the No.4 Mk I, the SMLEs had the trigger attached to the stock. As stange as this seems, the design was obviously quite successful. However, near the end of WW II, an improvement was suggested. In some cases, the stock would warp and effect the trigger pull. To remedy this occasional problem, a design change was incorporated that had the trigger attached to the action.

This became the No. 4 Mk II. I believe some of the last Mk Is got the new trigger design as well, and they were thusly marked Mk I*.

tahunua001 · November 18, 2014, 08:30 PM

no that's the only real difference. the MK1*s mostly had 2 groove barrels where MK1s mostly had 4 grooves, but that's not really a unique feature to one or the other. some MK1s have 2 groove and some MK1*s had 4 groove. the savage MK1*s were more likely to have the L shaped two peep aperture sights while the rest had one of the various ladder sights that were used.

Blindstitch · November 18, 2014, 08:35 PM

delete

tahunua001 · November 18, 2014, 08:44 PM

I think you misunderstood the question. the person has a number 4 MK1* and he bought wood for a number 4 MK1. the number 1 and number 4 rifles are completely different beasts altogether. different bolts, barrels, sights, wood, and bayonet lugs.

one problem with enfields is that they were made in every corner of the world and every factory made them just a little differently. even though they are functionally the same rifles, a stock from a BSA no4 will not necessarily fit a long branch or a savage and vice versa.

wogpotter · November 19, 2014, 10:25 AM

Here comes the No, mark, (*) confusion again.

Rifle No1 (aka the SMLE) is completely different from the Rifle No4 (not an SMLE).

HOWEVER the NO4 Mk1, No4 Mk1 (*) is interchangeable, but & No4 Mk2, No4 Mk 1/2, or No4 Mk 1/3 (both being No4 Mk1 or Mk1* conversions to No4 Mk2 standard) are not interchangeable with the NO 4 Mk1 or No4 mk1* because of the extra metal "hanger" added to mount the trigger to on those versions.

Back to the OP's question:
There are lots of minor differences, mostly things like stampings instead of castings & so on to speed up production, but they shouldn't affect the stock fitting. The butt socket will though. There were 2 versions during the lifespan & they don't interchange. One had a round butt socket, the other a "D" shaped one. Make sure you're getting the correct one.

There were also 2 types of forestock, but that's not going to affect fit, just appearance. One had a cutout for a magazine cutoff, & one didn't. No one knows why as magazine cut offs were never fitted to any version of the No4!

Any replacement stock won't be "drop in" some minor fitting will be needed though.

n.perkinsfields · November 19, 2014, 02:15 PM

No, my question is whether or not the wood from a No4 Mk1 will fit a No4 Mk1*.
I have a No4 Mk1*, and just bought the wood from a No4 Mk1.

wogpotter · November 19, 2014, 02:56 PM

Quote:

No, my question is whether or not the wood from a No4 Mk1 will fit a No4 Mk1*.
I have a No4 Mk1*, and just bought the wood from a No4 Mk1.

Sorry I thought that was what my post's second half was about??

Quote:

There are lots of minor differences, mostly things like stampings instead of castings & so on to speed up production, but they shouldn't affect the stock fitting. The butt socket will though. There were 2 versions during the lifespan & they don't interchange. One had a round butt socket, the other a "D" shaped one. Make sure you're getting the correct one.

There were also 2 types of forestock, but that's not going to affect fit, just appearance. One had a cutout for a magazine cutoff, & one didn't. No one knows why as magazine cut offs were never fitted to any version of the No4!

Any replacement stock won't be "drop in" some minor fitting will be needed though.

Let me know if I can clarify more.

n.perkinsfields · November 19, 2014, 03:45 PM

Thank you! It was hard pulling that information out of all the posts. Hopefully this new stock fits into the existing gun that I have. I have not taken the ramline stock off yet, and the listing was from an inexperienced user who didn't know much about it.
I'll take off the ramline this weekend and post what I find back here.. But here's the pictures of the pieces I bought!
I'm going to assume that any No4 Mk1 barrel band will fit with the wood?

wogpotter · November 19, 2014, 05:31 PM

Unfortunately all the info is on the opposite side

It looks fine, but I can't see the cutout (if any) for the mag cutoff, but it's cosmetic anyway.

FYI the yellow band means it was once on a Commonwealth cadet rifle that was tested & found "worn, but serviceable". Green would be unworn, but red would have been unacceptably worn.
TIP: Dont lever the front end off or on by tilting it! It slides on vertically parallel to the barrel or it will damage vital bedding areas.

n.perkinsfields · November 19, 2014, 05:37 PM

Thanks for that bit of info! I had no idea why it was painted yellow.
I saw in a video one guy said not to wobble it as it could damage the gun, but to lift straight off.
I know that the lower fore-end is held on by two screws near the trigger guard, are the upper grips and the front end of the lower grip just held on by the barrel bands?

n.perkinsfields · November 27, 2014, 07:44 PM

Could anyone help me with the serial number?

The numbers just above the trigger guard behind the receiver reads:
N (Arrow up) 7
4 5 (funny 1 with a line through it) 7 2
5L6455

The numbers on the top of the bolt read:
45172 However the 5 is weirdly engraved, behind the 1 there is a 0, the 7 is thick, and the 2 looks to have a 3 behind it.

The numbers on the back of the bolt read:
5L6455 Then includes and insignia of two flags in an x, with what looks like two "c's" on the sides, a "p" on the bottom, and a crown on the top.

Any ideas or info?! It's greatly appreciated!

SIGSHR · November 27, 2014, 11:14 PM

I vaguely recall reading somewhere-forget where of course, that for the No. 4 MkI the * was used to distinguish North American production.

tahunua001 · November 28, 2014, 12:40 AM

no the * signified a difference in variant. the * models had a completely different method of take down and other slight modifications to make them easier to produce. the fact that they were only made by savage and longbranch is irrelevant.

wogpotter · November 28, 2014, 08:35 AM

It seems to have been numbered, possibly by the importer.

James K · November 28, 2014, 03:14 PM

I think the N^7 is N^Z, for New Zealand. The L in the original serial number indicates manufacture at Long Branch, Ontario (a C would indicate manufacture by Savage at Chicopee Falls, MA.

In doing some digging on Long Branch, I found that Long Branch was NOT technically a government factory - because the Department of National Defence procedures were too cumbersome to allow a government factory to ever reach the production stage in time, it was chartered as a Crown Company. Some of the story is here:

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=36139

Jim

tahunua001 · November 29, 2014, 03:02 PM

I'm not too up on my enfield markings but didn't longbranch actually have the name spelled out along the left side of the receiver?

n.perkinsfields · December 2, 2014, 01:39 PM

Yes, Long Branch is on the left side of the receiver. Thanks for the other information everyone!
Does anyone know if the savage barrel bands can be used on the long branch?

wogpotter · December 2, 2014, 04:16 PM

Should be fine.

SIGSHR · December 2, 2014, 06:16 PM

Any who already owns-or is planning to get-a Lee Enfield will fins Ian Skennterton's books a VERY wise investment.

November 18, 2014, 07:51 PM	#1
n.perkinsfields Junior Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 6	*Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 and Mk1 differences?** I have recently acquired a 1942 No4 Mk1* from Canada and am wondering about any major differences. I know one is the bolt and how it is removed, however I am unsure if there is anything else I should know about it and how it differs from the No4 Mk1. Mostly because I have just purchased an old very used wood set off ebay to refinish and mount to the gun in place of the ram line sporterized plastic that someone previously put on it. I'd rather have the gun in it's former and much more beautiful condition.

November 18, 2014, 08:30 PM	#3
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	no that's the only real difference. the MK1s mostly had 2 groove barrels where MK1s mostly had 4 grooves, but that's not really a unique feature to one or the other. some MK1s have 2 groove and some MK1s had 4 groove. the savage MK1s were more likely to have the L shaped two peep aperture sights while the rest had one of the various ladder sights that were used. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein* You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

November 18, 2014, 08:35 PM	#4
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	delete Last edited by Blindstitch; November 18, 2014 at 09:19 PM.

November 18, 2014, 08:44 PM	#5
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	I think you misunderstood the question. the person has a number 4 MK1* and he bought wood for a number 4 MK1. the number 1 and number 4 rifles are completely different beasts altogether. different bolts, barrels, sights, wood, and bayonet lugs. one problem with enfields is that they were made in every corner of the world and every factory made them just a little differently. even though they are functionally the same rifles, a stock from a BSA no4 will not necessarily fit a long branch or a savage and vice versa. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

November 19, 2014, 10:25 AM	#6
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Here comes the No, mark, () confusion again. Rifle No1 (aka the SMLE) is completely different from the Rifle No4 (not an SMLE). HOWEVER the NO4 Mk1, No4 Mk1 () is interchangeable, but & No4 Mk2, No4 Mk 1/2, or No4 Mk 1/3 (both being No4 Mk1 or Mk1* conversions to No4 Mk2 standard) are not interchangeable with the NO 4 Mk1 or No4 mk1* because of the extra metal "hanger" added to mount the trigger to on those versions. Back to the OP's question: There are lots of minor differences, mostly things like stampings instead of castings & so on to speed up production, but they shouldn't affect the stock fitting. The butt socket will though. There were 2 versions during the lifespan & they don't interchange. One had a round butt socket, the other a "D" shaped one. Make sure you're getting the correct one. There were also 2 types of forestock, but that's not going to affect fit, just appearance. One had a cutout for a magazine cutoff, & one didn't. No one knows why as magazine cut offs were never fitted to any version of the No4! Any replacement stock won't be "drop in" some minor fitting will be needed though. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

November 18, 2014, 08:28 PM	#2
Danny Creasy Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2007 Location: Northwest Alabama Posts: 274	I am taking a stab at this from memory. So, I could be mistaken. Up through the No.4 Mk I, the SMLEs had the trigger attached to the stock. As stange as this seems, the design was obviously quite successful. However, near the end of WW II, an improvement was suggested. In some cases, the stock would warp and effect the trigger pull. To remedy this occasional problem, a design change was incorporated that had the trigger attached to the action. This became the No. 4 Mk II. I believe some of the last Mk Is got the new trigger design as well, and they were thusly marked Mk I*.

November 19, 2014, 02:15 PM	#7
n.perkinsfields Junior Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 6	CORRECTION. No, my question is whether or not the wood from a No4 Mk1 will fit a No4 Mk1. I have a No4 Mk1, and just bought the wood from a No4 Mk1.

November 19, 2014, 05:31 PM	#10
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Unfortunately all the info is on the opposite side It looks fine, but I can't see the cutout (if any) for the mag cutoff, but it's cosmetic anyway. FYI the yellow band means it was once on a Commonwealth cadet rifle that was tested & found "worn, but serviceable". Green would be unworn, but red would have been unacceptably worn. TIP: Dont lever the front end off or on by tilting it! It slides on vertically parallel to the barrel or it will damage vital bedding areas. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

November 19, 2014, 05:37 PM	#11
n.perkinsfields Junior Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 6	Thanks for that bit of info! I had no idea why it was painted yellow. I saw in a video one guy said not to wobble it as it could damage the gun, but to lift straight off. I know that the lower fore-end is held on by two screws near the trigger guard, are the upper grips and the front end of the lower grip just held on by the barrel bands?

November 27, 2014, 11:14 PM	#13
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I vaguely recall reading somewhere-forget where of course, that for the No. 4 MkI the * was used to distinguish North American production.

November 28, 2014, 12:40 AM	#14
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	no the * signified a difference in variant. the * models had a completely different method of take down and other slight modifications to make them easier to produce. the fact that they were only made by savage and longbranch is irrelevant. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

November 28, 2014, 08:35 AM	#15
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	It seems to have been numbered, possibly by the importer. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

November 28, 2014, 03:14 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I think the N^7 is N^Z, for New Zealand. The L in the original serial number indicates manufacture at Long Branch, Ontario (a C would indicate manufacture by Savage at Chicopee Falls, MA. In doing some digging on Long Branch, I found that Long Branch was NOT technically a government factory - because the Department of National Defence procedures were too cumbersome to allow a government factory to ever reach the production stage in time, it was chartered as a Crown Company. Some of the story is here: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=36139 Jim

November 29, 2014, 03:02 PM	#17
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	I'm not too up on my enfield markings but didn't longbranch actually have the name spelled out along the left side of the receiver? __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

December 2, 2014, 01:39 PM	#18
n.perkinsfields Junior Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 6	Yes, Long Branch is on the left side of the receiver. Thanks for the other information everyone! Does anyone know if the savage barrel bands can be used on the long branch?

December 2, 2014, 04:16 PM	#19
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Should be fine. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

December 2, 2014, 06:16 PM	#20
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Any who already owns-or is planning to get-a Lee Enfield will fins Ian Skennterton's books a VERY wise investment.