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Old September 3, 2014, 10:32 PM   #1
Coach Z
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What happened here?

So I am new to reloading as some of you may know from some of my questions so far. Thanks to all of your help I've successfully loaded and shot about 500 res of my own 115 grain 9mm loads now and I'm having a ton of fun. Pretty sure I'm not saving any money at the rate I'm shooting lately.

So I embarked on my first .223 reloads this afternoon, loaded up 20 after getting the dies set as per the instructions with the dies. charge and c.o.a.l. were based on the current hornady manual and checked against speer and lyman to be safe. (all of my reloading gear is hornady, single stage press and dies).

About four cases have this odd bulge at the shoulder??? Was the case too long to start with? I cleaned about 300 res of my own once fired factory ammo and check a sample of around 10% of them and all that I checked were well under the trim length so I didn't worry about trimming yet.

Any and all advice is appreciated


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Old September 3, 2014, 11:02 PM   #2
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Looks like your die is trying to crimp the bullets before they are fully seated. Unscrew the die at least one full turn, lock it there and then reset your seating depth stem to desired OAL. If you are not crimping, that's it and should solve your problem.

If you still wish to crimp your bullets, make sure the top of the brass is well into the cannelure of the bullet. Back off your seating stem a few turns, raise the ram (with your case)and then screw the die back down until it just contacts the brass rim, then enough more to achieve desired crimp. Then screw your seating stem back down until it bottoms out on the bullet you've just crimped. Check OAL and check for buckling.

FWIW I don't crimp any rifle rounds.
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Old September 4, 2014, 12:30 AM   #3
mehavey
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Yup, the dreaded continued-seating-while-already-crimped bulge.

Don't crimp 223.

There's not enough recoil to require anchoring the bullet beyond just normal neck tension.*





* (For that matter, don't bother w/ a crimp up through/including 30-06 either)
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Old September 4, 2014, 06:25 AM   #4
Coach Z
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Thanks for the replies guys, I'll give that a go tonight.

Is this brass toast or can I pull the bullets and resize? Guess I could also pull them and convert it to 300 BLK as well...

It really is an addiction!
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Old September 4, 2014, 06:29 AM   #5
mehavey
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The cartridge will more than likely not chamber, so you will have to pull the bullets anyway.
Resize and chalk it up to been-there/done-that experience.
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Old September 4, 2014, 08:13 AM   #6
Coach Z
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I was sure it wouldn't chamber it looks massively bulged, but I dropped it in a Lyman chamber gauge and it seated within .05 of flush.

I certainly am going to pull them I was just surprised.
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Old September 4, 2014, 08:40 AM   #7
jtmckinney
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I don't know what happened but I don't see any crimp.
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Old September 4, 2014, 08:57 AM   #8
steve4102
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Quote:
So I embarked on my first .223 reloads this afternoon, loaded up 20 after getting the dies set as per the instructions with the dies
Your photo is a classic sign of an improperly set up seating die.

Seating die instructions.

Take a sized case and put it into the shell holder.

Raise the ram all the way up.

Screw the seating die into the press until you feel it make contact with the case mouth.

Back the seating die OUT of the press at least one full turn and Lock it down.
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Old September 4, 2014, 09:05 AM   #9
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What happened ???

You screwed up but hey at least it not as bad as me


Quote:
I dropped it in a Lyman chamber gauge and it seated within .05 of flush.
That's 50 thousandths .050 and the head space tolerance on a 223 is 7 thousandths .007 . This means you have a 43 thousandths .043 difference . You did not say which way from flush ( high or low )?? To high and no way it chambers , to low and case head separation is likely and real dangerous .
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Old September 4, 2014, 09:42 AM   #10
F. Guffey
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Any and all advice is appreciated
If you were in the habit of trimming cases to the same length you would be ready for crimping.

When not crimping adjust the seating stem off to avoid seating the bullet, then adjust die down to the mouth of the case for crimping then back the die off to avoid crimping. After backing the die off adjust the seating stem.

I use transfers, I adjust the seating die to a transfer from the chamber. I do not crimp bottle neck cases. It was suggested years ago crimping can reduce bullet hold, today it is called tension, I want all the bullet hold I can get especially with transfers. I can measure bullet hold, all I can do with tension is nothing.

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Dillon describers seating and crimping a as a conflict, when necessary I will seat bullets with one die and crimp with another.
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Old September 4, 2014, 09:53 AM   #11
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I was sure it wouldn't chamber it looks massively bulged, but I dropped it in a Lyman chamber gauge and it seated within .05 of flush.
Lyman chamber gage? The diameter of the bulge at the case body shoulder juncture would prevent the case from chambering in a Lyman or any chamber gage, if we are talking about a case gage remember the case gage will allow a fired and or sized case to fit the case gage at the datum/shoulder.

To determine the inside diameter of a case gage I have driven cases in with a drift while the gage was sitting on a block of lead. Do not forget to lube the inside of the gage. It is possible to modify/reduce the case gage inside diameter. I find it convenient to make chamber gages from old barrels or use a take off/new barrels chamber as a gage.

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Old September 4, 2014, 10:28 AM   #12
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Quote:
Coach Z
What happened here?
Your case has midriff bulge.

You are at a crossroads:
a) You can blame someone else.
b) You can blame yourself.
c) You can give up.
d) none of the above
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Old September 4, 2014, 12:10 PM   #13
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Its a die adjustment/case length issue.

Unlike the 9mm Luger (and most other semi auto pistol cases) rifle dies have a "roll" crimp. Like revolver rounds the die body has a shoulder in it that folds the case mouth in, "rolling" it, to produce the crimp.

In order for this to work right, there has to be somewhere for the case mouth to be rolled into. The cannelure on the bullet is that place.

What happened to you is that the case mouth hit the crimping shoulder in the die, and since the bullet wasn't in the right place AT THE SAME TIME, there was no place for the case mouth to go, and the case buckled, at the shoulder.

Its a matter of adjustment, and one has to adjust both the die body, and the bullet seating stem. AND, its not going to work right, unless all your brass is the same length. With uniform length cases, you can set things up to seat and crimp in one step.

people debate the need for crimping, and there is debate about how it affects accuracy, etc. I've been reloading for over 40 years, currently over 30 different cartridges, ranging from .22 Hornet to .458 Win mag. I have yet to see any definitive proof that, done correctly, crimping hurts anything.

Done WRONG, it can hurt accuracy, and in extreme cases, wrinkle and bulge cases to the point where they will not chamber.

If you like, PM me and I'll walk you through the process in detail.

The quick fix for your problem is back the die body up a full turn, then turn down the seating stem to get back to correct COAL. You won't be crimping, but you won't be mashing cases, either.
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Old September 7, 2014, 10:12 AM   #14
F. Guffey
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There are bullets without a cannelure, I have a roll-your-own machine that makes it possible once it has been decided the best place for it. The machine does not get a lot of use, but JIC, I have the machine.

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Old September 7, 2014, 10:44 PM   #15
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Too much crimp (crimping to early, before the bullet is seated fully
seated and the seater keeps pushing, something has to give )

solutions--

1- back off the die and do not crimp
2- back off the die and adjust the crimp correctly
( works best when cases are trimmed the same length)
3- crimp in a seperate operation
( seat bullets, then back off seater and crimp cases )
( works best when cases are trimmed the same length)

I only crimp for pistol and for guns with a tubular magazine
( calibers I do not crimp-- 223, 308, 3006, 6.5X55, 303, 7.62X54R
7.92X57,30 carbine, with correct neck tension the bullet will not move!! )

Last edited by firewrench044; September 7, 2014 at 11:17 PM.
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Old September 7, 2014, 11:48 PM   #16
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LOL, you are definitely not alone in doing this (LOL.) How else would we know what to tell you (LOL). This is a common error by reloaders.

With the die way up, put a case in the case holder, bring the ram up, then screw the die down. When it just touches the mouth of the case then stop, tighten the die down, then use the stem to set the COL or if you call it the OAL.

That saves having to toss brass away (LOL), been there done that. And not just on 223 brass.

Jim
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Last edited by Jim243; September 7, 2014 at 11:57 PM.
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Old September 8, 2014, 08:55 AM   #17
F. Guffey
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Quote:
With the die way up, put a case in the case holder, bring the ram up, then screw the die down. When it just touches the mouth of the case then stop, tighten the die down, then use the stem to set the COL or if you call it the OAL.
First trim your cases to the same length. Before the Internet reloading literature suggested crimping could reduce bullet hold because of the bulge below the crimp. The seating die does not offer neck and or shoulder support.

I made a seater that does, it does not have a die body.

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Old September 8, 2014, 09:17 AM   #18
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Crimp as a separate operation.

Saves a lot of cases.
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Old September 8, 2014, 01:05 PM   #19
33GURK
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The only thing I will add is case lube on the neck can cause this as well, it does not happen often but can happen.
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Old September 8, 2014, 01:36 PM   #20
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Gurk, there shouldnt be any case.lube around duringthis phase of handloading.

I use a nickle, I adjust seating die down to nickleon topof shellholder to give me plenty of distance between shellholder and die, that takes care of rolled shoulders simply, then adjust seater stem.....I never roll shoulders, brass is too important....
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Old September 9, 2014, 02:20 AM   #21
33GURK
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Yes I realize this, I have been reloading for over 25 years, if the case lube is left on this can happen, I guess I should have been a little more clear, us older reloaders know this but the new guys do not which is why I figured I`d throw that in there as well.
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