Shootout In Hollywood

[joab]

That "documentary" had a LOT of holes in it...

That can't be true. It was on Discovery Channel for God's sake

[Cowled_Wolfe]

Cowled-Wolfe, if they could not hit the bad guys in the head, what makes you think they could hit the AK47s, or you for that matter?

Now assuming I can play 'what if' scenarios which ignore the fact that I'd have been scared s***less... I'd have started trying to hit their AKs or their heads in order to disable their arms or give them concussions...

I never said I'd be able to hit either target. I did say I'd try to, though.
Excerpt from definitions of 'try':

5 : to make an attempt at

I did like the part about giving the bad guys concussions. I didn't know you had that sort of control on your ammo. Yes, that is pretty naive.

Yeah, the idea of having control over a bullet in flight is pretty naive... But I do have a few questions. I'll even answer them for you!

Would a standard 9mm round penetrate a helmet at that range? No.
Would a standard 9mm round give the guy in the helmet a pretty hard knock? Yes.
Would that knock be enough to give him a concussion? Probably.

I think naive would be thinking a round's going to go right through his helmet and blow his brains out.

I didn't comment on it earlier, but I will here. I also liked the notion of the ineffective weaponry against such a superior force.

I consider weapons to be ineffective when a BG is hit 10 or more times and is still standing, don't you?

At the height of battle, there were somewhere between 300 and 400 LAPD officers (depending on sources) involved against 2 guys.

Earlier you mentioned watching all the bullets pinging in news footage. Watch that footage, then tell me how many officers you see actively involved.

LAPD has SWAT units (with full auto as noted on a recent remake documentary, but the full auto are MP5s, I believe, not .5.56), radios, and helicopters.

And when the SWAT units finally arrived, it didn't take long to end the conflict. The officers there for the bulk of the time didn't have MP5s or ARs.

Plus, the PD had all the advantages of various news organizations providing live feeds. They even had their own armored vehicle and commandeered another.

Live feeds to whichever call center, perhaps, but I don't think the officers on the scene were able to watch a TV -- at the most, I can see some descriptions of what's on TV via radio, which probably weren't fast enough to stay caught up in the confusion of the fight. The armored vehicles sure didn't help much... In fact, you seemed to make a point earlier that the BGs could have stopped an armored vehicle.

Tell me again, why two guys in body armor with full auto rifles with extremely limited mobility, no intel, no access to backup, and no com systems are superior to hundreds of officers?

Because the BGs had armor which protected them from the weapos available to the officers they were fighting (untill the end when SWAT arrived), because they had automatic weapons which could penetrate the police body armor as well as some of their cover. Because they were heavily armored enough that moving around wasn't very neccessary (they had the police pinned, and therefore didn't need to move quickly). They didn't have intel, but all else was in their favor for the bulk of the fight. When you're that well armed and armored, and you're fighting police who don't have the arms or armor to protect themselves/hurt you, you don't need much backup, do you? They weren't far enough apart to need a com system, and there were only two of them in the first place. Yelling woulda worked. I already addressed your claims of hundreds of officers.

They were not a superior force.

Read the above.

They simply did not have the hangups LAPD had. They did not have to worry about collateral damage. They did not have a command structure break down that slowed implementation of weaponry and people.

The BGs had that in their favor too.

The robbers came prepared for battle. LAPD did not. The robbers wore armor that would stop most rounds used by the LAPD, mixing hard and soft body armor over large areas of their bodies. LAPD had on soft armor only that covered limited areas.

So why did you argue that the police had MP5s and ARs? Right here, you're acknowledging that they didn't have an advantage in arms or armor. Also, I don't think the police were too worried about collateral damage: You described all the police bullets hitting the building behind the BGs; also, the SWAT officers who approached the BG by the disabled brownish truck shot back through the truck and the car next to it -- without showing much regard for the condition of the vehicles.

Simply put, the police only gained the upper hand at the end of the fight (hence it being the end), but they were vastly incapable of overcoming the BGs' force for almost all of the conflict.

[PsychoSword]

I still find it amazing that not one of the L.A. P.D. who responded could get anything close to a headshot any of the time while the perps (read "felons" for all the newspeak folks) were standing out front shooting random s**t, shooting at helicopters, shooting at stores across the street, ect.

Somebody's gonna post, "we'll see how good you shoot while somebody is shooting back at you", bulls**t if anybody there was worth a s**t the arseholes never would have made it any farther and never would have had more chances to blow away any bank employees or customers.

[Cowled_Wolfe]

Isn't 'newspeak' a "1984" reference?

I ask this because the last time I read that was in 6th grade, I was bored as hell, and I only survived reading through half of it.

[Danindetroit]

This is from memory, and may be incorrect, but the actual shootout involved less than 100 people I believe, I think, after the 2 guys were dead, they still had a massive search underway, for other people, being covered head to toe, and probably indistinguishable in the excitement, people probably didn't believe only 2 people could do this alone, I believe they were on prescription painkillers, I guess when #'s of wounds are mentioned, I have to ask is a bruise under armor, caused by a bullet a wound. These types of injuries usually require hospitalization. The fact that they sustained X wounds doesn't tell the story, if they posibly sustained 98% of them in the last 30 seconds in thier life.

These officers are supposed to be trained for these situations, The media protrays LA, as a haven of gang members using fully-auto ak-47's everyday. Gee maybe the media is wrong, and most gang shootings are mainly from .38 revolvers, sawed off, single, or 2 barrel shotguns, with semi-auto 9mm starting to be seen more often in the late 90's, to now. The lack of sustained SG fire, or lack of ammo is appaling, it probably is a result of the officers don't like to shoot slugs, or heavy 00 loads. I am not sure, but if you brought in extra ammo, buck, and slug loads for your SG, it may be against policy, but dying and a write-up, or even losing your job is a personal decision.

The lack of training of LE nation-wide is horrendous, a paid amount of monthly range time should be instituted. I do not kow the amount of gun ranges , or quality in LA, but you can go on your day off, and shoot at longer ranges to see the hold on your gun, after all it is your life, Keep the receipt, and if you are lucky enough to itemize your deductions, deduct it. The decision to go to .45 caliber handguns alludes me, I did not think they penetrated a bullet proof vest more than a 9mm. It seems the 9 has some pretty hot LE loads out there, that would cause more blunt force than a .45 the lapd went with, I though the slower a projectile, the more time for the fibers, to disperse the force over a larger area. I may be wrong. I thought that some of the respondents were off-duty, so that maybe swat team members were at the actual shootout, but not an "official swat team". I am not sure what went on in the bank, but from some picks of the hardware shown in a thread asking about ccw weapons, I have to ask, could a couple of guys from this board, have snuck up behind the BG's while exiting, or firing at the front of the bank on officers, standing on either side of the doorway, put 2 rounds in the back of their heads?, or in their extremeities, after getting people to cover of course. This may not contain 1 fact, it is purely speculation.

[Danindetroit]

CW you are correct, it is not news speak, but, new speak, a new actuall language that was supposed to be emerging.

[ISP2605]

"Somebody's gonna post, "we'll see how good you shoot while somebody is shooting back at you", bulls**t if anybody there was worth a s**t the arseholes never would have made it any farther and never would have had more chances to blow away any bank employees or customers."

It's nice to see we have an experienced gun fighter on the list. One who has obviously, from his post, been involved in multiple shootouts, has the first hand experience to know what a gun fight is like and all the dynamics involved, and who has interviewed, first hand, numerous participants in shootouts.

It's easy to shoot accurately when no one is shooting back. It's even easier to shoot accurately sitting behind a computer.
Some people need to stick with their computer games.

[ISP2605]

"This is from memory, and may be incorrect, but the actual shootout involved less than 100 people I believe,"

According to the on scene commander and the 2 detectives who conducted the investigation 32 LAPD offiicers fired their weapons.
9 LAPD were wounded by gun fire.
3 citizens were wounded.
1 officer was injured in a traffic collision responding to the scene.
1 officer was injured from non-gun fire causes.
12 squad cars were damaged beyond repair.
1 squad car received 57 separate rds.
Across the street was a kiosk which several officers used for cover. It received over 150 rds.

For the LEOs on the list if you get the chance to hear either the on scene commander or the detectives speak then take the time to go. Particularly the on scene commander. They were making the rounds to the usual LEO only type meetings.

[Don Gwinn]

Play nice, folks. No profanity and let's not get too huffy over that which is, after all, hypothetical.

[Tamara]

I still find it amazing that not one of the L.A. P.D. who responded could get anything close to a headshot any of the time while the perps (read "felons" for all the newspeak folks) were standing out front shooting random s**t, shooting at helicopters, shooting at stores across the street, ect.

I have a little money-making proposition for you. You favor the iron-sighted Beretta, right? Let's go set up an IPSC target on a bobber at, what would you say was a good average for that dustup? 35 yards? We should also set the bobber up to allow a certain amount of random lateral movement. We'll let you load up ten 15 round magazines, and then set it in motion. Then you can open up. For every hit you make in the A-zone of the target's noggin, you'd get a ten dollar bill. For every miss, you'd give me a dollar. Who do you think would come out ahead?

[Old NFO]

We'll let you load up ten 15 round magazines, and then set it in motion. Then you can open up. For every hit you make in the A-zone of the target's noggin, you'd get a ten dollar bill. For every miss, you'd give me a dollar. Who do you think would come out ahead?

Lets be fair- Give him the same capacity the officers had at the scene- 3 mags total, a random paint ball gun firing from down range back at the line, and I'll pitch in $10 per hit/get $1 miss too! Why you could even let him shoot from behind a barricade

[DarkKnight01]

blah blah blah :barf: im not going to debate with you all..... i just wanna know where i can find the video ?????

[Chiram2003]

Wow, so little known that the robbers didn't even know they were military trained! The late Mr. Matasareanu, 30, was born in Romania and grew up partly in Altadena. He turned to computers because he was teased for being chubby. After graduating from DeVry Institute of Technology in Los Angeles, he operated his own business, working as a computer technician and software designer, his mother, Valerie Nicolescu, told reporters. - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/1211/index2.html Chiram, I think you are confused with the bandits who shot it out with the FBI in 1986. Platt being the one who used military tactics on the unsuspecting FBI agents and advanced on their position when he basically was in a losing position in the fight. This completely took the agents by surprise.

I stand corrected. Like I said, I wasn't sure.

[GLK]

Tamara wrote;

I have a little money-making proposition for you. You favor the iron-sighted Beretta, right? Let's go set up an IPSC target on a bobber at, what would you say was a good average for that dustup? 35 yards? We should also set the bobber up to allow a certain amount of random lateral movement. We'll let you load up ten 15 round magazines, and then set it in motion. Then you can open up. For every hit you make in the A-zone of the target's noggin, you'd get a ten dollar bill. For every miss, you'd give me a dollar. Who do you think would come out ahead?"

And don't forget to have a volley of full auto 30 cal indiscriminately sprayed in his direction every so often while he tries to fire at the bobbing head bad guy target. if I were a betting man I would have to side with Tamara's odds on winning the bet. As far as second guessing and monday morning quarterbacking the LAPD and SO, I won't even try to talk the talk til I've walked the walk. Honestly I don't see my cowardly butt being very impressive when the full auto starts zipping overhead.

[gvortec53]

I would like to point out to those speculating about an engines steel content. 99% of Caterpillar,Detroit,Cummins,Chevrolet,Pontiac,Cadillac an every other american made engine are cast iron not steel. That being said, cast iron at operating temperature (190 to 220 degrees average) will crack quite easily. Hell I know for a FACT a .357 delivered to the thin part of the webbing in the main bearing area of a small block chevy will crack the webbing. That being said an engine can run for a long time with a cracked block provided they dont run the hell out of it an its not cracked in a critical area such as the cam boss or the front water jacket. Just food for thought. If you dont beleive cast iron will crack, get a cast iron pan an put it on the stove an cook biscuits in it then promptly drop it on a tile floor an watch it shatter like glass.

[Cowled_Wolfe]

If we want to get into engine specifics... Think of all the hoses/wires surrounding the engine. I'm sure those would kill the engine long before the big metal parts would...

[Danindetroit]

So then the armored vehicle, was shot, and it's engine was disabled, from the beginning of the firefight. Ok. I did not know this. Someone said it was able to move around. I guess it could have been pushed.

[Full Metal Jacket]

Just wondering, if one of the cops had a .357 magnum revolver with 125 grain FMJ ammo, would that be enough to pierce the armor the BG's were wearing? Or at least break bones?

[PsychoSword]

@ISP2605
I'm not paid to "serve and protect", but I do know which end the bullet comes out of and where on the target my guns shoot. Must be nice being a cop, everytime you screw up there's thousands of people out there willing to come up with every excuse in the book for you. :barf:

@Tamara
No, I don't favor the Beretta. 35 yards? That should be difficult seeing as I normally practice at 30. You're telling me you couldn't make a single headshot on a silhouette target? Do I also get a 12 gauge loaded with 00 Buck? I didn't know that they were running back and forth, sure didn't look like it. Most of the time they seemed to be walking around/standing/shooting helicopters/digging things out of their trunk..

@Old NFO
The police had more than 3 mags of ammo at the scene.

@FMJ
I don't remember what armor they were wearing, but it's doubtful unless there was a problem with the vest or it hit a seam. If they were donning typical level II or IIa then an FN 5.7 should have done it. A mildly loaded S&B FMJ out of a CZ-52 or TT-33 would have done the job even better.

[ISP2605]

"@ISP2605
I'm not paid to "serve and protect", but I do know which end the bullet comes out of and where on the target my guns shoot. Must be nice being a cop, everytime you screw up there's thousands of people out there willing to come up with every excuse in the book for you. "

So tell us what it's like being in a shootout where rds are coming your way. I, like others on here, would like to know your experiences of returning fire while under fire, and just how easy it is.
Some people play video games so much they actually believe they're real.

[PsychoSword]

3 tours in 'nam.

What seems to be your obsession with video games?

You want to be non-judgemental towards the police, but judgemental towards a total stranger on the internet. What a fraud.

[ISP2605]

"3 tours in 'nam."

HARHARHARHAR!!!
And your profile says:
"Birthday:
August 31, 1979 "
That puts you born about 5 yrs after VN. Were you there as a tourist?
or maybe this post? You remember typing this:
"I hear ya. I'm at the point where I can't afford school anymore and the jobs around here don't pay unless you're a LEO, doctor, in real estate or know programming... Bout ready to break down and join LE or the Army cuz I don't really wanna be a firefighter..."
Now who's a fraud?
You can't pull the BS. Those who've been under fire know, and your posts show you haven't.
So again, tell us all what it's like to be under fire, and return fire. Tell us all how easy it is.
What a phony! Another internet commando.
You owe all us Vets an apology, if you've got the guts to admit it.

[PsychoSword]

Thick As A Brick

[Tamara]

Lights out.