December 20, 2004, 10:43 PM | #26 | |
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December 21, 2004, 01:11 AM | #27 | ||||||||||||
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Would a standard 9mm round penetrate a helmet at that range? No. Would a standard 9mm round give the guy in the helmet a pretty hard knock? Yes. Would that knock be enough to give him a concussion? Probably. I think naive would be thinking a round's going to go right through his helmet and blow his brains out. Quote:
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Simply put, the police only gained the upper hand at the end of the fight (hence it being the end), but they were vastly incapable of overcoming the BGs' force for almost all of the conflict.
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December 21, 2004, 03:21 AM | #28 |
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I still find it amazing that not one of the L.A. P.D. who responded could get anything close to a headshot any of the time while the perps (read "felons" for all the newspeak folks) were standing out front shooting random s**t, shooting at helicopters, shooting at stores across the street, ect.
Somebody's gonna post, "we'll see how good you shoot while somebody is shooting back at you", bulls**t if anybody there was worth a s**t the arseholes never would have made it any farther and never would have had more chances to blow away any bank employees or customers. |
December 21, 2004, 04:00 AM | #29 |
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Isn't 'newspeak' a "1984" reference?
I ask this because the last time I read that was in 6th grade, I was bored as hell, and I only survived reading through half of it.
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December 21, 2004, 04:57 AM | #30 |
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This is from memory, and may be incorrect, but the actual shootout involved less than 100 people I believe, I think, after the 2 guys were dead, they still had a massive search underway, for other people, being covered head to toe, and probably indistinguishable in the excitement, people probably didn't believe only 2 people could do this alone, I believe they were on prescription painkillers, I guess when #'s of wounds are mentioned, I have to ask is a bruise under armor, caused by a bullet a wound. These types of injuries usually require hospitalization. The fact that they sustained X wounds doesn't tell the story, if they posibly sustained 98% of them in the last 30 seconds in thier life.
These officers are supposed to be trained for these situations, The media protrays LA, as a haven of gang members using fully-auto ak-47's everyday. Gee maybe the media is wrong, and most gang shootings are mainly from .38 revolvers, sawed off, single, or 2 barrel shotguns, with semi-auto 9mm starting to be seen more often in the late 90's, to now. The lack of sustained SG fire, or lack of ammo is appaling, it probably is a result of the officers don't like to shoot slugs, or heavy 00 loads. I am not sure, but if you brought in extra ammo, buck, and slug loads for your SG, it may be against policy, but dying and a write-up, or even losing your job is a personal decision. The lack of training of LE nation-wide is horrendous, a paid amount of monthly range time should be instituted. I do not kow the amount of gun ranges , or quality in LA, but you can go on your day off, and shoot at longer ranges to see the hold on your gun, after all it is your life, Keep the receipt, and if you are lucky enough to itemize your deductions, deduct it. The decision to go to .45 caliber handguns alludes me, I did not think they penetrated a bullet proof vest more than a 9mm. It seems the 9 has some pretty hot LE loads out there, that would cause more blunt force than a .45 the lapd went with, I though the slower a projectile, the more time for the fibers, to disperse the force over a larger area. I may be wrong. I thought that some of the respondents were off-duty, so that maybe swat team members were at the actual shootout, but not an "official swat team". I am not sure what went on in the bank, but from some picks of the hardware shown in a thread asking about ccw weapons, I have to ask, could a couple of guys from this board, have snuck up behind the BG's while exiting, or firing at the front of the bank on officers, standing on either side of the doorway, put 2 rounds in the back of their heads?, or in their extremeities, after getting people to cover of course. This may not contain 1 fact, it is purely speculation. |
December 21, 2004, 05:01 AM | #31 |
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CW you are correct, it is not news speak, but, new speak, a new actuall language that was supposed to be emerging.
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December 21, 2004, 08:21 AM | #32 |
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"Somebody's gonna post, "we'll see how good you shoot while somebody is shooting back at you", bulls**t if anybody there was worth a s**t the arseholes never would have made it any farther and never would have had more chances to blow away any bank employees or customers."
It's nice to see we have an experienced gun fighter on the list. One who has obviously, from his post, been involved in multiple shootouts, has the first hand experience to know what a gun fight is like and all the dynamics involved, and who has interviewed, first hand, numerous participants in shootouts. It's easy to shoot accurately when no one is shooting back. It's even easier to shoot accurately sitting behind a computer. Some people need to stick with their computer games. |
December 21, 2004, 08:30 AM | #33 |
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"This is from memory, and may be incorrect, but the actual shootout involved less than 100 people I believe,"
According to the on scene commander and the 2 detectives who conducted the investigation 32 LAPD offiicers fired their weapons. 9 LAPD were wounded by gun fire. 3 citizens were wounded. 1 officer was injured in a traffic collision responding to the scene. 1 officer was injured from non-gun fire causes. 12 squad cars were damaged beyond repair. 1 squad car received 57 separate rds. Across the street was a kiosk which several officers used for cover. It received over 150 rds. For the LEOs on the list if you get the chance to hear either the on scene commander or the detectives speak then take the time to go. Particularly the on scene commander. They were making the rounds to the usual LEO only type meetings. |
December 21, 2004, 09:36 AM | #34 |
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Play nice, folks. No profanity and let's not get too huffy over that which is, after all, hypothetical.
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December 21, 2004, 09:40 AM | #35 | |
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PsychoSword,
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December 21, 2004, 11:01 AM | #36 | |
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Now Tamara...
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December 21, 2004, 04:30 PM | #37 |
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blah blah blah :barf: im not going to debate with you all..... i just wanna know where i can find the video ?????
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December 21, 2004, 05:38 PM | #38 | |
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December 25, 2004, 12:08 AM | #39 | |
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Tamara wrote;
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December 25, 2004, 04:58 PM | #40 |
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Engine Material
I would like to point out to those speculating about an engines steel content. 99% of Caterpillar,Detroit,Cummins,Chevrolet,Pontiac,Cadillac an every other american made engine are cast iron not steel. That being said, cast iron at operating temperature (190 to 220 degrees average) will crack quite easily. Hell I know for a FACT a .357 delivered to the thin part of the webbing in the main bearing area of a small block chevy will crack the webbing. That being said an engine can run for a long time with a cracked block provided they dont run the hell out of it an its not cracked in a critical area such as the cam boss or the front water jacket. Just food for thought. If you dont beleive cast iron will crack, get a cast iron pan an put it on the stove an cook biscuits in it then promptly drop it on a tile floor an watch it shatter like glass.
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December 25, 2004, 05:14 PM | #41 |
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If we want to get into engine specifics... Think of all the hoses/wires surrounding the engine. I'm sure those would kill the engine long before the big metal parts would...
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December 25, 2004, 06:46 PM | #42 |
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So then the armored vehicle, was shot, and it's engine was disabled, from the beginning of the firefight. Ok. I did not know this. Someone said it was able to move around. I guess it could have been pushed.
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December 26, 2004, 12:32 AM | #43 |
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Just wondering, if one of the cops had a .357 magnum revolver with 125 grain FMJ ammo, would that be enough to pierce the armor the BG's were wearing? Or at least break bones?
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December 26, 2004, 07:53 PM | #44 |
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@ISP2605
I'm not paid to "serve and protect", but I do know which end the bullet comes out of and where on the target my guns shoot. Must be nice being a cop, everytime you screw up there's thousands of people out there willing to come up with every excuse in the book for you. :barf: @Tamara No, I don't favor the Beretta. 35 yards? That should be difficult seeing as I normally practice at 30. You're telling me you couldn't make a single headshot on a silhouette target? Do I also get a 12 gauge loaded with 00 Buck? I didn't know that they were running back and forth, sure didn't look like it. Most of the time they seemed to be walking around/standing/shooting helicopters/digging things out of their trunk.. @Old NFO The police had more than 3 mags of ammo at the scene. @FMJ I don't remember what armor they were wearing, but it's doubtful unless there was a problem with the vest or it hit a seam. If they were donning typical level II or IIa then an FN 5.7 should have done it. A mildly loaded S&B FMJ out of a CZ-52 or TT-33 would have done the job even better. |
December 26, 2004, 08:10 PM | #45 |
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"@ISP2605
I'm not paid to "serve and protect", but I do know which end the bullet comes out of and where on the target my guns shoot. Must be nice being a cop, everytime you screw up there's thousands of people out there willing to come up with every excuse in the book for you. " So tell us what it's like being in a shootout where rds are coming your way. I, like others on here, would like to know your experiences of returning fire while under fire, and just how easy it is. Some people play video games so much they actually believe they're real. |
December 26, 2004, 08:17 PM | #46 |
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3 tours in 'nam.
What seems to be your obsession with video games? You want to be non-judgemental towards the police, but judgemental towards a total stranger on the internet. What a fraud. |
December 26, 2004, 09:06 PM | #47 |
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"3 tours in 'nam."
HARHARHARHAR!!! And your profile says: "Birthday: August 31, 1979 " That puts you born about 5 yrs after VN. Were you there as a tourist? or maybe this post? You remember typing this: "I hear ya. I'm at the point where I can't afford school anymore and the jobs around here don't pay unless you're a LEO, doctor, in real estate or know programming... Bout ready to break down and join LE or the Army cuz I don't really wanna be a firefighter..." Now who's a fraud? You can't pull the BS. Those who've been under fire know, and your posts show you haven't. So again, tell us all what it's like to be under fire, and return fire. Tell us all how easy it is. What a phony! Another internet commando. You owe all us Vets an apology, if you've got the guts to admit it. |
December 26, 2004, 09:29 PM | #48 |
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Thick As A Brick
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December 26, 2004, 10:02 PM | #49 |
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Lights out.
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