.38 Super a choice for self-defense? - Page 2

BigJimP · July 1, 2016, 11:59 PM

Nothing wrong with .38 super...../ ....but it isn't more popular for defense because of ammo cost....and ammo availability -- and folks don't want to spend the money...in my view.

It's a niche caliber ...and as others explained - rules changed a little for competition shooters, so they moved on to other options they liked better.

There are a lot of niche calibers out there .... .357 sig, .38 super , .41 mag, 10mm ( maybe even .40 s&w )...nothing wrong with any of them....but they're not going to be more popular than 9mm, .45 acp or .357 mag .... in my view.

Koda94 · July 2, 2016, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmarr

So why isn't the Super more popular outside of target shooting, and even there?

its not needed for self defense.

is it a "better" round, ballistically yes but by that logic so is a 44mag. For self defense you dont need much more than the lowly 9mm.

rock185 · July 2, 2016, 04:21 AM

Some reasonable explanations have already been posted here as to why the Super 38 is not more popular. I admit I'm still a fan though and have owned, reloaded for and chronographed several 38 Super pistols and a bunch of hand loaded and factory ammo since the '70s. Unfortunately, the Super has not been the recipient of major ammunition manufacturer's efforts to develop state of the art Duty/SD type ammunition as the 9MM, .40 S&W, .45 ACP calibers,etc. have been. Another issue might be that major manufacturer's Super ammo is not loaded to velocity levels safely attainable. For instance I have tested Winchester's 125 grain Silvertip in several different pistols with 5" barrels. I guess this would be considered an SD type factory load. Advertised at 1240 FPS, it averaged 1160 to 1175 FPS in my tests. Perhaps major manufacturer's are concerned their factory ammo might be used in some old 38 ACP pistol. The 38S 125 Silvertip velocity is less than 9MM Winchester and IMI 124 grain NATO, and most 9MM 124 grain +P in 5" barrels. It gets even more interesting when the Super is compared to 9MM +P+. Where the Super shines IMHO is with the heavier 147 grain bullets. Within my humble experience 1200 FPS, closer to 1250 FPS actually, is easily and safely attainable with the Super using 147 grain bullets. I still own and operate a couple of Supers for no reason I can really defend. I just enjoy reloading for and shooting this old caliber.........ymmv

WC145 · July 2, 2016, 09:53 AM

The Super is a great self defense round, always has been, and quality SD ammo is readily available. Yes, the 9mm is far more popular but that doesn't take away from the effectiveness and power of the Super. Sure, you can approach Super velocities with 115gr +P+ 9mm but the pushes 124-135gr bullets to 1250-1350 without resorting to +P+ pressures, and, with the same 115gr projectile the Super is hitting 1450fps. My preferred carry round is Georgia Arms 124gr GDHP at 1350fps, it's accurate, reliable, and hits hard.

I prefer 1911s and the Super is terrific out of that platform. Plus, it's easy to set your gun up with a spare 9mm barrel for cheap practice. My Colt Super is set up with 9mm and 9x23 Winchester barrels (125gr bullet @ 1450fps, now your talking about an 11 shot .357mag).

If you want a Super, go for it. Ammo is readily available and comparable in price to .45ACP.

My Colt Super-

Oysterboy · July 2, 2016, 11:03 AM

^^^ Sweet ^^^

**44 AMP** · July 2, 2016, 11:09 AM

Quote:

For self defense you dont need much more than the lowly 9mm.

Maybe you don't, but a lot of other people feel they do. And, apparently so do ammo makers, because the "lowly 9mm" has been jacked up in pressure and velocity once (+p) and then AGAIN (+p+). IF it was all you need, why the increase???

Original 9mm load was a 124gr FMJ at 1050fps (4"barrel).
The improved load, carried into battle in WW I was a 115gr at 1150fps.

Where are we today?? and WHY are we there? It seems to me that the increase in 9mm was to improve effectiveness. If the original was effective enough, why increase?? SO, it seems clear that the standard 9mm WASN"T effective enough for many people.

The hot 9mm rounds today are .38Super performance, in a smaller package. If you jack up .38Super by the same percentage, you will see a corresponding increase in its performance as well.

Koda94 · July 2, 2016, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Maybe you don't, but a lot of other people feel they do. And, apparently so do ammo makers, because the "lowly 9mm" has been jacked up in pressure and velocity once (+p) and then AGAIN (+p+). IF it was all you need, why the increase???

Original 9mm load was a 124gr FMJ at 1050fps (4"barrel).
The improved load, carried into battle in WW I was a 115gr at 1150fps.

Where are we today?? and WHY are we there? It seems to me that the increase in 9mm was to improve effectiveness. If the original was effective enough, why increase?? SO, it seems clear that the standard 9mm WASN"T effective enough for many people.

The hot 9mm rounds today are .38Super performance, in a smaller package. If you jack up .38Super by the same percentage, you will see a corresponding increase in its performance as well.

I’m not against more fire-power but the question was why it isn’t more popular, not what is a better round.

and really, you don’t need more than a regular 9mm, you don’t need to jack it up to +P+ either. Its been around a long time and has no less track record than 40 or 45 or any other calliber jacked up or not. If it wasn’t a proven manstopper, it would not have been used in military and police since WWI.

tipoc · July 2, 2016, 12:38 PM

The 38 Super is a very good round for self defense and small game.

Here is a link to the best reference site for the 38 Super on the web:

http://38super.net/

If you go here...

http://www.midwayusa.com/38-super/br?cid=21664

and here...

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index....-38-super-auto

you can see some of the commercial ammo available for the 38 Super. If you plan ahead it's not hard to find ammo.

It was said earlier that most commercial ammo is downloaded to 9mm velocities for the 38 Super and this is true (about 1100 fps with a 130 gr. pill). Makes for decent practice stuff. It's also true that Wilson Combat, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Cor-Bon and a couple of others load the round closer to it's full potential (they run about 1350 fps with a 125 gr. jhp).

1350 fps from the 5" barrel of a 1911 is about what the 125 gr. .357 magnum gets from a 4" revolver barrel, if it actually gets that. So it ain't a bad round for self defense.

On the original question of why it isn't more popular...that's an essay in itself as it takes up the history of handgunning in the U.S. But real briefly...

In 1898 Colt wanted a contract with the U.S. military for a semi automatic pistol. So they got Browning to develop one and a round for it. As the Army was using a 38 caliber revolver round at the time JMB developed a 38 acp round for the new gun which was the Model 1900 Military. It was a semi rimmed cartridge. The gun was his first design to use two parallel links to allow the barrel to tilt some. The round fired a 130 gr. jacketed bullet at 1300 fps. It was the most powerful semi automatic pistol in existence by ft. pds of energy. A title it held till the 10mm came along.

The round was too powerful for the design and soon battered the slide badly and broke a few parts in the gun. So the round was down loaded to 1100fps. In 1928 Colt chambered the round in the 1911 and boosted the velocity back up to 1300 fps. The gun was called the Colt Super 38. Before long folks took to calling the round 38 Super.

Long story short...law enforcement in the U.S. used revolvers back then and the use of the 1911 in 45acp was very limited in law enforcement circles. Less so the 38 Super. The U. S. was a nation of wheelgunners till the 1970s-1980s. Until after WWII no major American manufacturer other than Colt produced a semi pistol in a major service caliber.

The 38 Super was used a little by the OSS during WWII in Europe. Thailand, Indonesia and a few other places adopted it as a military round. It was popular in Mexico and Latin America where both the 9mm and 45acp were banned from civilian use as military rounds. Still is legendary in Mexico.

There was virtually no jhp ammo made for semi-automatic pistols till the late 1970s in the U.S. so the defensive advantage of ammo was with revolver rounds.

The 38 Super led a quiet existence till the 1980s when a pistol shooter brought a 1911 to an IPSC match loaded with 38 Super in a compensated gun. They made major easily and cleaned everyones clock with a gun with so little recoil that recovery time was cut to about nill. The 38Super came to rule in that roost and did so till the mid 1990s or so when they lowered the qualifications of what made major. 38 Super still has a powerful presence in the Bianchi Cup.

Anyway 38 Super is a niche round, a legendary niche round for those who know, but niche.

You get 38 Super because you like how it does what it does. It doesn't do things other rounds don't. It's how it does it that is interesting.

tipoc

Model12Win · July 2, 2016, 01:06 PM

The .38 Super does have a much better knock down power factor over the 9mm, but the 9mm holds more rounds in general.

tipoc · July 2, 2016, 01:22 PM

Quote:

The .38 Super does have a much better knock down power factor over the 9mm, but the 9mm holds more rounds in general.

Depends on the gun. They are the same external diameter so the same number of rounds can fit in either. The Super will take any bullet made for the 9mm or the 38 Spl./357 Mag (in most cases). It's the length that's different. The 45 acp is the same length as the 38 Super.

In practice there are many, many more double stack guns in 9mm than in 38 Super. But, like I said, you don't get the 38 Super because it's "better" than the 9mm, you get it because you like it, because you like how it does what it does.

It's a much smoother shooter, to me, than the 9mm +P+ or +P, the 40 S&W or 357 Sig. This is because the Super operates at a lower pressure. This latter extends both gun/barrel life and case life.

There is no point in getting the Super rather than the 9mm or the 45 acp or any other round. Get it in addition to. To work with it and learn it. It's a great round by itself.

tipoc

Oysterboy · July 2, 2016, 01:44 PM

Why I carry my 10mm.

post image

springer99 · July 2, 2016, 03:35 PM

The 38Super is definitely what I'd call a boutique round, in that, in order to really benefit from it's advantages over 9mm, you need to reload. It's a great cartridge that will handle anything from 90 to 160 pills, at a very respectable velocity and energy. Even more than typical 45ACP in some cases and close to some 357mag. loads.

I find that the lighter recoil is more manageable for me than shooting 45ACP and I do like, in a 1911 platform, the advantage of having 10 in the tank compared to 7-8 vs. 45ACP. I like to think of it as "what every 9mm would want to be when it grows up".

g.willikers · July 2, 2016, 03:42 PM

Quote:

The .38 Super does have a much better knock down power factor over the 9mm

Energy numbers don't necessarily translate to real world effects.
Check out this youtube video on the myth of knockdown power of small arms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZPusyLeMA
Years ago, the folks from Second Chance body armor did a short film on the so called knockdown power of guns up to the power of the M1.
Nobody actually was bowled over, even when standing on one leg like a flamingo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f1Fo4r4_I

BigJimP · July 2, 2016, 06:32 PM

I agree ....knock down power is just a myth....but we perpetuated it for a long time back in the 60's thru the 90's probably...and we believed it too...

A lot of professional instructors these days believe in shot placement over caliber or bullet weight issues...

Sure ammo suppliers ( and gun mfg's ) want you to believe you need to buy something new all the time...different ammo, different gun, different caliber...and I admit, I got sucked into the hype of the .40 S&W 15 yrs ago or so...and I've still got 3 guns in .40 S&W ( Sig 239, Sig 226 & Sig X-Five --- and for awhile I even had a Wilson Combat 1911 ( 5" CQB) in .40S&W.../ but I haven't shot more than 20 boxes of .40 S&W a year, for the last 10 yrs, and while I still love the .45 acp...even I've given in to the idea of shot placement - and speed on follow up shots being the key factor / and today my primary carry gun is a Wilson 1911 (5" gun" in 9mm...).... and 10 + 1 rds is plenty...in my view. I no longer carry a .45 acp...( I will occasionally carry it -- or a revolver in .357 Mag )...but my primary carry gun is a 5" 1911 in 9mm...and with the high quality defensive ammo out there today, its plenty.

**44 AMP** · July 3, 2016, 09:51 AM

Quote:

A lot of professional instructors these days believe in shot placement over caliber or bullet weight issues...

Anyone who doesn't think shot placement is THE most important factor should NOT be TEACHING anything about shooting, and possibly not about anything else, either.

Quite simply put, if shot placement (putting the bullet where it needs to go) isn't right, NOTHING else matters very much.

arguments about caliber, energy, penetration, are all moot if the bullet misses the vital spot.

Bill DeShivs · July 3, 2016, 01:18 PM

Agreed!

tipoc · July 3, 2016, 05:04 PM

Just to be contrary and off topic...

Quote:

I agree ....knock down power is just a myth....but we perpetuated it for a long time back in the 60's thru the 90's probably...and we believed it too...

No one that knew anything ever equated "stopping power" or "Knockdown power" with a bullets ability to either physically stop or knockdown a person. It's an internet myth that Elmer Keith, Julian Hatcher, Jeff Cooper, Skeeter Skelton, Charles Askins, Jack O'Conner and many others who spoke of "stopping power" were so inexperienced and ignorant that they believed that the bullet would or could knock a fella off there feet. They clearly knew otherwise. Hatcher was the first to demonstrate it and still used the terms on occasion. The phrase was always a standby for a bullet hitting harder and potentially doing more damage than another. The 357 had more "stopping power" than a 38 Special, the 45acp more "knockdown power" than the 32acp, a LSWC has more "stopping power" than ball ammo, etc. But in the last decade or two some like to believe they learned better than the old timers or discovered something new. That bullets don't knock folks down. But people knew that including those who regularly used the inexact and misleading terms, even though the terms had a particular meaning.

People in bars and gun stores can tell you that a 45 Colt round will knock a horse off it's feet, or the 45 acp tear your arm off. I had a man tell me the other day that the 45 Colt needs to be "lobbed" into a target 25 yards away. This is inexperience and myth speaking. But when O'Conner or Hatcher used the terms knockdown power, they knew. It was an inexact way of referring to the relative power of handgun and rifle rounds and their ability to do damage.

tipoc

Glenn E. Meyer · July 4, 2016, 11:52 AM

I've had two men (both well over 6 ft) tell me that they shot a 1911 and it damn near tore their arm off. No, they didn't shoot themselves in the arm -

.

I'm 5'8" and have easily shot 125 45 ACPs in a morning. Still got my arm. Given Newton's laws - why do I still have my arms?

Oysterboy · July 4, 2016, 12:11 PM

While the knockdown power is myth what about put down power ie stopping the threat?

Don't the heavier caliber have a better chance of putting down a threat? I don't buy my ammo because of the 12" penetration capability, they exceed it to 18" of penetration minimum.

You should know why.

**OldMarksman** · July 4, 2016, 12:24 PM

Patrick Sweeney made the following relevant point: when the US Army demanded the use of a .45 over the .38 ACP and over 9mm of the time some 100+ years ago, they were looking for a cavalry weapon that was effective against horses.

He opines that had the .38 Super been available, it might have been selected.

All of that is yesterday's newspaper. Most of us do not need to stop horses; the premium 9MM defensive ammunition available today is far more effective than that of old; and the need for placement remains, and now we can put more priority on lower recoil to improve control and increase chances for effective placement.

dahermit · July 4, 2016, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Patrick Sweeney made the following relevant point: when the US Army demanded the use of a .45 over the .38 ACP and over 9mm of the time some 100+ years ago, they were looking for a cavalry weapon that was effective against horses.

It would have helped if you had actually provided a citation to show that is what the army was interested in (something that would stop horses). As it is now, we just obliged to believe it because you say it is so...just like in a bar.

g.willikers · July 4, 2016, 01:09 PM

Yeah!
I didn't buy no danged handgun to shoot them nice horsies.
Dragons!
That's what my shootin' iron is for.
You betcha.
Don't see none around these parts neither.

**OldMarksman** · July 4, 2016, 01:39 PM

Quote:

It would have helped if you had actually provided a citation to show that is what the army was interested in (something that would stop horses). As it is now, we just obliged to believe it because you say it is so...just like in a bar.

Well, the 1911 source selection preceded the era of motorized cavalry by some years.

Ever wonder why the .44 was called the "Army calibre" and the .36 the "Navy"?

Obviously, the horse was bigger target than the rider.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-...ney/1103443665

Koda94 · July 4, 2016, 01:44 PM

sometimes its just more fun to sit down in the bar and enjoy the conversation like the good old days when the only citation sources were miles away at the closed for the evening library...

part of me wishes the govt would have picked the 38 Super over the 45acp, its truly a more versatile round. But I digress history was written and now it wouldn’t be the same without a 1911 in 45...

jmstr · July 7, 2016, 10:00 PM

Just FYI, GECO ammo [Hungarian] is a more 'mainstream' manufacturer than Buffalo Bore, and their .38Super ammo claims to push a 124gr FMJ at 1411 fps.

It was accepted as the official match ammo of the World Shoot XVI [2013?], where it was accepted as meeting the power factor of 160 for this IPSC-type event.

Tests indicated it was a bit lower [1250fps from some guns], but GECO was going to work on the ammo to introduce changes and bring it up to snuff.

I have a .38Super that I need to get out and shoot. I have a bunch of stuff I need to get out and shoot. Why is it I only have free time after 10pm, when all ranges within 100 miles are closed?

I love the 1911 platform, and look forward to reloading for .38Super some day. I like the 9mm. I like the .45acp. I have moderate-small hands.

If the 1911 didn't feel right, I'd probably not be very interested in the .38 Super- or the .45, or the 10mm. All of them require a different grip size, generally.

I live where 10 rounds is the legal max for a magazine. Thus a standard capacity Glock G17 isn't a possibility- I need a neutered 10 rounder. If I can only have 10 rounds of 9mm, then why worry about 9 rounds of .38 Super?

If I had the ability to carry a G17 with a standard capacity [17 rounds] mag in it, I'd be less interested in a .38 Super for defensive purposes, as the 8 extra rounds of +P+ 9mm would make me more relaxed than 8 fewer rounds that make 100 fps more each.

Now, if I could just afford a semi-auto that could hold/fire 10 rounds of Buffalo Bore's .357Mag Heavy Loads [making around 720 ft/lbs of ME, vs 'normal' target .357mag loads around 500 ft/lbs], I would take that in a heart beat over the others.

July 2, 2016, 09:53 AM	#29
WC145 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Downeast Maine Posts: 1,836	The Super is a great self defense round, always has been, and quality SD ammo is readily available. Yes, the 9mm is far more popular but that doesn't take away from the effectiveness and power of the Super. Sure, you can approach Super velocities with 115gr +P+ 9mm but the pushes 124-135gr bullets to 1250-1350 without resorting to +P+ pressures, and, with the same 115gr projectile the Super is hitting 1450fps. My preferred carry round is Georgia Arms 124gr GDHP at 1350fps, it's accurate, reliable, and hits hard. I prefer 1911s and the Super is terrific out of that platform. Plus, it's easy to set your gun up with a spare 9mm barrel for cheap practice. My Colt Super is set up with 9mm and 9x23 Winchester barrels (125gr bullet @ 1450fps, now your talking about an 11 shot .357mag). If you want a Super, go for it. Ammo is readily available and comparable in price to .45ACP. My Colt Super- __________________ "If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge or jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - LtCol Jeff Cooper

July 2, 2016, 03:35 PM	#37
springer99 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Posts: 355	The 38Super is definitely what I'd call a boutique round, in that, in order to really benefit from it's advantages over 9mm, you need to reload. It's a great cartridge that will handle anything from 90 to 160 pills, at a very respectable velocity and energy. Even more than typical 45ACP in some cases and close to some 357mag. loads. I find that the lighter recoil is more manageable for me than shooting 45ACP and I do like, in a 1911 platform, the advantage of having 10 in the tank compared to 7-8 vs. 45ACP. I like to think of it as "what every 9mm would want to be when it grows up". Last edited by springer99; July 3, 2016 at 02:43 PM.

July 3, 2016, 01:18 PM	#41
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	Agreed! __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

July 4, 2016, 11:52 AM	#43
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I've had two men (both well over 6 ft) tell me that they shot a 1911 and it damn near tore their arm off. No, they didn't shoot themselves in the arm - . I'm 5'8" and have easily shot 125 45 ACPs in a morning. Still got my arm. Given Newton's laws - why do I still have my arms? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 4, 2016, 01:09 PM	#47
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Yeah! I didn't buy no danged handgun to shoot them nice horsies. Dragons! That's what my shootin' iron is for. You betcha. Don't see none around these parts neither. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 1, 2016, 11:59 PM	#26
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Nothing wrong with .38 super...../ ....but it isn't more popular for defense because of ammo cost....and ammo availability -- and folks don't want to spend the money...in my view. It's a niche caliber ...and as others explained - rules changed a little for competition shooters, so they moved on to other options they liked better. There are a lot of niche calibers out there .... .357 sig, .38 super , .41 mag, 10mm ( maybe even .40 s&w )...nothing wrong with any of them....but they're not going to be more popular than 9mm, .45 acp or .357 mag .... in my view.

July 2, 2016, 11:03 AM	#30
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	^^^ Sweet ^^^

July 2, 2016, 12:38 PM	#33
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	The 38 Super is a very good round for self defense and small game. Here is a link to the best reference site for the 38 Super on the web: http://38super.net/ If you go here... http://www.midwayusa.com/38-super/br?cid=21664 and here... http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index....-38-super-auto you can see some of the commercial ammo available for the 38 Super. If you plan ahead it's not hard to find ammo. It was said earlier that most commercial ammo is downloaded to 9mm velocities for the 38 Super and this is true (about 1100 fps with a 130 gr. pill). Makes for decent practice stuff. It's also true that Wilson Combat, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Cor-Bon and a couple of others load the round closer to it's full potential (they run about 1350 fps with a 125 gr. jhp). 1350 fps from the 5" barrel of a 1911 is about what the 125 gr. .357 magnum gets from a 4" revolver barrel, if it actually gets that. So it ain't a bad round for self defense. On the original question of why it isn't more popular...that's an essay in itself as it takes up the history of handgunning in the U.S. But real briefly... In 1898 Colt wanted a contract with the U.S. military for a semi automatic pistol. So they got Browning to develop one and a round for it. As the Army was using a 38 caliber revolver round at the time JMB developed a 38 acp round for the new gun which was the Model 1900 Military. It was a semi rimmed cartridge. The gun was his first design to use two parallel links to allow the barrel to tilt some. The round fired a 130 gr. jacketed bullet at 1300 fps. It was the most powerful semi automatic pistol in existence by ft. pds of energy. A title it held till the 10mm came along. The round was too powerful for the design and soon battered the slide badly and broke a few parts in the gun. So the round was down loaded to 1100fps. In 1928 Colt chambered the round in the 1911 and boosted the velocity back up to 1300 fps. The gun was called the Colt Super 38. Before long folks took to calling the round 38 Super. Long story short...law enforcement in the U.S. used revolvers back then and the use of the 1911 in 45acp was very limited in law enforcement circles. Less so the 38 Super. The U. S. was a nation of wheelgunners till the 1970s-1980s. Until after WWII no major American manufacturer other than Colt produced a semi pistol in a major service caliber. The 38 Super was used a little by the OSS during WWII in Europe. Thailand, Indonesia and a few other places adopted it as a military round. It was popular in Mexico and Latin America where both the 9mm and 45acp were banned from civilian use as military rounds. Still is legendary in Mexico. There was virtually no jhp ammo made for semi-automatic pistols till the late 1970s in the U.S. so the defensive advantage of ammo was with revolver rounds. The 38 Super led a quiet existence till the 1980s when a pistol shooter brought a 1911 to an IPSC match loaded with 38 Super in a compensated gun. They made major easily and cleaned everyones clock with a gun with so little recoil that recovery time was cut to about nill. The 38Super came to rule in that roost and did so till the mid 1990s or so when they lowered the qualifications of what made major. 38 Super still has a powerful presence in the Bianchi Cup. Anyway 38 Super is a niche round, a legendary niche round for those who know, but niche. You get 38 Super because you like how it does what it does. It doesn't do things other rounds don't. It's how it does it that is interesting. tipoc

July 2, 2016, 01:06 PM	#34
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	The .38 Super does have a much better knock down power factor over the 9mm, but the 9mm holds more rounds in general.

July 2, 2016, 01:44 PM	#36
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	Why I carry my 10mm. post image

July 2, 2016, 06:32 PM	#39
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I agree ....knock down power is just a myth....but we perpetuated it for a long time back in the 60's thru the 90's probably...and we believed it too... A lot of professional instructors these days believe in shot placement over caliber or bullet weight issues... Sure ammo suppliers ( and gun mfg's ) want you to believe you need to buy something new all the time...different ammo, different gun, different caliber...and I admit, I got sucked into the hype of the .40 S&W 15 yrs ago or so...and I've still got 3 guns in .40 S&W ( Sig 239, Sig 226 & Sig X-Five --- and for awhile I even had a Wilson Combat 1911 ( 5" CQB) in .40S&W.../ but I haven't shot more than 20 boxes of .40 S&W a year, for the last 10 yrs, and while I still love the .45 acp...even I've given in to the idea of shot placement - and speed on follow up shots being the key factor / and today my primary carry gun is a Wilson 1911 (5" gun" in 9mm...).... and 10 + 1 rds is plenty...in my view. I no longer carry a .45 acp...( I will occasionally carry it -- or a revolver in .357 Mag )...but my primary carry gun is a 5" 1911 in 9mm...and with the high quality defensive ammo out there today, its plenty.

July 4, 2016, 12:11 PM	#44
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	While the knockdown power is myth what about put down power ie stopping the threat? Don't the heavier caliber have a better chance of putting down a threat? I don't buy my ammo because of the 12" penetration capability, they exceed it to 18" of penetration minimum. You should know why.

July 4, 2016, 12:24 PM	#45
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	Patrick Sweeney made the following relevant point: when the US Army demanded the use of a .45 over the .38 ACP and over 9mm of the time some 100+ years ago, they were looking for a cavalry weapon that was effective against horses. He opines that had the .38 Super been available, it might have been selected. All of that is yesterday's newspaper. Most of us do not need to stop horses; the premium 9MM defensive ammunition available today is far more effective than that of old; and the need for placement remains, and now we can put more priority on lower recoil to improve control and increase chances for effective placement.

July 4, 2016, 01:44 PM	#49
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,295	sometimes its just more fun to sit down in the bar and enjoy the conversation like the good old days when the only citation sources were miles away at the closed for the evening library... part of me wishes the govt would have picked the 38 Super over the 45acp, its truly a more versatile round. But I digress history was written and now it wouldn’t be the same without a 1911 in 45... __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

July 7, 2016, 10:00 PM	#50
jmstr Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2001 Location: San Joaquin Valley, CA Posts: 1,281	Just FYI, GECO ammo [Hungarian] is a more 'mainstream' manufacturer than Buffalo Bore, and their .38Super ammo claims to push a 124gr FMJ at 1411 fps. It was accepted as the official match ammo of the World Shoot XVI [2013?], where it was accepted as meeting the power factor of 160 for this IPSC-type event. Tests indicated it was a bit lower [1250fps from some guns], but GECO was going to work on the ammo to introduce changes and bring it up to snuff. I have a .38Super that I need to get out and shoot. I have a bunch of stuff I need to get out and shoot. Why is it I only have free time after 10pm, when all ranges within 100 miles are closed? I love the 1911 platform, and look forward to reloading for .38Super some day. I like the 9mm. I like the .45acp. I have moderate-small hands. If the 1911 didn't feel right, I'd probably not be very interested in the .38 Super- or the .45, or the 10mm. All of them require a different grip size, generally. I live where 10 rounds is the legal max for a magazine. Thus a standard capacity Glock G17 isn't a possibility- I need a neutered 10 rounder. If I can only have 10 rounds of 9mm, then why worry about 9 rounds of .38 Super? If I had the ability to carry a G17 with a standard capacity [17 rounds] mag in it, I'd be less interested in a .38 Super for defensive purposes, as the 8 extra rounds of +P+ 9mm would make me more relaxed than 8 fewer rounds that make 100 fps more each. Now, if I could just afford a semi-auto that could hold/fire 10 rounds of Buffalo Bore's .357Mag Heavy Loads [making around 720 ft/lbs of ME, vs 'normal' target .357mag loads around 500 ft/lbs], I would take that in a heart beat over the others.