Some "noob" ? on the .38 special cartridge - casings & wadcutter

[bedbugbilly]

My background - have shot BP for 50+ years and cast round ball and conicals for same length of time - started shooting cartridge handguns a few years ago - am trying to get set up to hand load 38 specials - target loads.

I've been doing a lot of reading and studying - on the net - various forums as well as some manuals but have some questions that will probably seem stupid?

The handguns I want to load for are - .357 LCR snubbie, .357 Ruger New Vaquero - 5 1/2" barrel, 357 Python - 4", and either a S & W 36 or 80 - 3" barrel. I also have a 1910 vintage Colt AS - 6" and a vintage 1920/s S & W M & P Target - 6". I have no interest in shooting .357 so we'll avoid that topic please.

At this point, I'm looking at getting a Lee 358 - 145 WC mold. Because of the variety of guns I'll be shooting, I'll probably size cast slugs to .357 just to be consistent. Lee says that many their molds allow for loading/shooting "as cast" ut I know how size can vary from molded batch to batch. My questions are -

1. Case Trimming - right now, I've saved all of my brass which is mostly nickel. I know that the case is supposed to be 1.155" - I've read several handloading posts where the poster says they trim theirs to 1.148" and one to 1.149. I figure I can use a digital caliper to check case length. However - how often is it necessary to trim a case? If I'm shooting 38spl in a .357, the case will be shorter than the chamber. I understand that on a crimped case, having all your cases the same length will make all crimps consistent. With the wadcutter I plan on using, how important is it that all the cases be exactly the same? Is a case trimmer a piece of equipment that I should plan on getting from the "get go" as I put together my reloading equipment?

2. Which leads me to the next question - utilizing the 148 grain wadcutter that I am thinking of using, These are usually set so that the nose is even with or just above the rim of the casing. It may be a dumb question, but is it really necessary to put much of crimp on the throat since the entire length of the slug is within the casing? What is normally done? I'm going to be using Lee dies - if no crimp is needed, I'm assuming that once you seat the bullet in to the casing at the correct depth, you just don't use the crimp die? Or is it necessary to put a slight roll crimp on the casing?

I'm planning on getting a Lee turret press (the heavier model) - 4 hole plate. Until I get more used to reloading, I will probaby load in batches and utilize it as a single stage press with the option of hand indexing the plate to the next operation. I'm not looking at loading "hot" cartridges or pushing the envelope. I just want to be able to load a decent target round that will be consistent. I don't shoot competition - I'm a plinker who sometimes punches paper - and a woodchuck or a coon once in a while. I'm just looking to come up with a good all around target round that will work in the various barrel lengths, makes, models of handguns that I have. I have a good overall concept of the reloading process but the further I go, it seems like the more questions I come up with. Appreciate any info/help in regards to my questions above.

[eldermike]

I shoot a bunch of 148 grain HBWC's and I don't crimp them but I have to use the crimp die to take the flare out of the case.
I load them on a dedicated Lee classic press with the powder throw set to something right under 3 grains of bullseye. I don't trim cases or clean them or do anything to cases but: size, flare, stuff and then let the crimp die take out the flare.

[m&p45acp10+1]

Well first I would advise a good reloading manual. Since you are going to be loading for handguns I would suggest the Lyman Pistol & Revolver 4th Edition. It cost less than $20, and is worth every penny. Tons of good useful information for reloading for your handguns.

Next thing is since you want soft shooting rounds, and are using them for plinking I would suggest skipping the full wad cutter, and going with the 158 grain semi wad cutter. I use the tumble lube version, tumble lubed. They work great, and very low recoil. No need to size them at all. Cast, let cool, tumble lube in a bowl, and let them dry for a couple of days. No need to size, just load them, and have fun.

For trimming I would not worry about it. I use the Lee Deluxe 4 die set. Set the seating die to seat, and remove most of the belling from the flaring, then use the Factory Crimp Die to apply the roll crimp. It is very forgiving for case length. In over 20 thousand rounds I have not trimmed a single .38 Special case. I doubt I ever will either.

Powders I have used, and like are in order of my preference.

IMR Trail Boss. It gives lots of case fill, it meters well also. For low recoil rounds it is hard to beat. It burns super clean as well. You will not find another powder that can be used for low pressure, low recoil round that will burn cleaner. (I would not advise use of this powder with full wad cutters. I tried, and had too many squibs with a max load.)

Hodgdon HP38/ Winchester Win 231. (They are interchangeable. Possibly the same.) Great for low recoil target loads. It meters extremely well. A little bit goes a long way as well.

Alliant Bull's Eye works well, meters great. A little bit goes a very long way. Most bangs for the buck from a can. It is a bit dirty, though nothing a cleaning kit will not solve in a just a few minutes.

Alliant Red Dot. When hand weighed it produced the best accuracy. Though I had to hand weigh each charge it meters poorly in low volume. It was a bit dirty, but as I said about the Bull's Eye it was no worse than most factory practice ammo.

The Lee Classic Turret is a great press. I advise to get a pro auto disc measure, and the powder riser. With the indexing rod in place, dies set properly, and the right disc with a good metering powder 200 rounds can be loaded in an hour at a slow pace. No batching needed.

[Unclenick]

Several things:

First, I'll second the recommendation for the tumble lube bullet. I have the Lee 6-Cavity mold for these and in my K-38 they shoot groups literally half the size of any commercial match ammo I've ever put through it. No sizing.

If you do size, you may find you have to do it differently for best results from each gun. I would not size 0.357" as that leaves not extra to seal against the bore when the alloy is too hard to upset enough to obturate it. 0.358" is standard, but many revolvers prefer 0.359".

The Tumble Lube bullet allows you to use any of the Lee Micro-Bands (lube grooves) in it as the crimp groove for a roll crimp. You can, therefore, load them out further to create more powder space to load them to higher pressure as full power loads. As long as the bullet doesn't hang up in the throat, this works. If it does stick in a throat, then size it to fit the throats.

You should not need to trim cases in general, but may want to do it once. The deal is that .38 Special pressures are too low to cause case growth. Indeed, in some oversize chambers they can actually lose a tiny bit of length with each load cycle. That just has to be monitored, but I find it more of an issue with .45 Auto than with .38 Special. That said, if you are going to apply a crimp, you want it to be consistent, so trimming once to a standard length is often done. The actual SAAMI specification for .38 Special case length is 1.115" - 0.020". So anything from 1.095" to 1.115" is in spec.

A special problem with .38 Wadcutters is how small the powder space left under a flush seated bullet is. This leads to primers unseating bullets faster than powder can build pressure, effectively increasing the powder space and lowering peak pressure. If you read Hodgdon's load specs for .38 wadcutters in .38 Special and the same bullet in .357 Magnum cases, fired with 231 or HP38 (same powder, different labeling), you find more powder showing lower peak pressure in the .38 Special, despite the smaller initial powder space. This is because of the primer unseating giving this round the larger powder space when the powder is actually building pressure, due to the unseating. The 0.135" longer .357 case is large enough the unseating doesn't tend to occur; at least, not to as great an extent.

A roll crimp can help fight that early bullet unseating effect and improve velocity consistency in the .38 Special case. A taper crimp works, too, but not as well. On the other hand, taper crimped cases last almost indefinitely, while roll crimped case mouths eventually start to split. I generally use the roll crimp in the .38 Special case with this bullet and a taper crimp in the .357 Mag cases with it, as it doesn't have that tendency for the bullet to jump out ahead of the powder burn.

I always load the wadcutters in .357 cases for .357 chambers. I see no point in letting lead fouling build up in the .135" extra jump to the throat in the lager chamber, where it can interfere with chambering a .357 round or raise pressure when firing one. But that's your choice.

P.S., Clean your brass if it falls to the ground. A sizing die can embed grit in it so it becomes like sandpaper in your chamber. If it goes from the cylinder to your brass container and your brass container is clean, then it's not an issue other than personal preference.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you all - your advice/information is well taken and clears up a lot of the questions I had.

M&P - the Lyman Manual will be part of my order for some of the equipment I'm sending for. It's one manual I haven't seen and I'm anxious to as I've heard it is good.

I think your advice on the 158 gr. SWC in the tumble lube would be the best choice for a "start out" mold. What you fellas are saying all makes sense. Unclenick - what you say on utilizing the lube grooves to crimp in and being able to adjust the depth in the case would certainly seem to make this a good choice.

I appreciate your comments on the different powders as well. I will be looking this next week in my area to see what is available and I'm sure that whatever I start out with will have a lot to do with that. Hopefully there are some powders and primers available.

In regards to sizing - I should probably wait on getting a sizing die until I get further along in getting my equipment. I'm going to get the mold ordered so that I can at least get some slugs molded up. The only sizing I've ever done is on minie balls (.58 cal conicals) for shooting in rifled musket for NSSA - a whole different story. I have read suggestions to load up several "dummy rounds" with "as cast" to see how they chamber before proceeding and I'll do that and check things out before proceeding. It would sure be a lot better if I didn't have to size.

One more question . . . after going back and looking at the Lee molds - the tumble lube 158 gr is available in either the SWC or a round nose. For what I'm looking at shooting, is there much difference between the two profiles? (other than profile of the nose). Would either of them function well or is there an advantage of the 158 TL SWC over the 158 TL round nose?

Many thanks - your explanations have greatly helped!

Edit: I should also add that I am very careful on collecting my brass after shooting - none touches the ground but instead is ejected into a container to keep it clean. While I have a variety of pistols with varying barrel lengths, most of my shooting will be out of my LCR snub (carry piece), my 5 1/2" New Vaquero and I hope, my soon to be acquired SW 36 or 60 with 3" barrel. If I can't locate a good used 36, I'm going to go with the 60.

[m&p45acp10+1]

Bebbugbilly I have been using that mold for 3 years now. It works well enough that it is my only mold for that caliber. If you can afford to do so I would advise getting two of the 6 cavity Lee molds for it. I have the two cavity. I cast lots of them. If I had it to do over again I would have spent the extra coin for two six hole molds, with handles for both. While one is cooling you pour the other.

You can turn out a lot of bullets in a very short time that way. I will be doing that when things die down on the demand side of things for molds. When I see them available online, and still available when I have the funds I will be buying them. Until then I will continue to use the two hole mold that I have. I have not sized a cast bullet ever, and I have cast well over 100 thousand of them in the past 5 years.

[zxcvbob]

Instead of getting 2 identical 6-banger molds, get whatever wadcutter you like plus the Lee 158 grain "RF" bullet. Unlike most flat points, it has a sharp edge around its generous flat nose. It cuts a bigger cleaner hole than a SWC, and it chambers easier than a WC.

[noylj]

For lead bullets, fit is everything. In general, if you don't want to measure your guns, you would be better off with 0.358-0.360" bullets.
For revolvers, ideally you want the bullets to be very tight slip fit in the cylinder's throats (or, if you load the bullet fully in the case, at least 0.001" larger than throat diameter) and you want the bullets to be at least 0.001" larger than groove diameter. You will find that throats and grooves can be all over the place.
Next, you need a slight roll crimp. You can crimp over the bullet's head or into a crimp or lube groove. The best roll crimp die is Redding's Profile Crimp Die.
What bullet works well can be real trial.
You can read some things about loading wadcutters at:
http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/...uttertests.htm
Personally, I gave up sizing my cast bullets about 1976 and never looked back. I found that my H&G 50 .38 wadcutters and H&G #68 .45 200gn L-SWCs all shot much tighter groups as-cast and hand lubed than going through the Lubri-Sizer.
This worked well for PPC and Bullseye.
Finally, an alloy of about 7BHN is all that is needed and pure lead and 1-1.5% tin works quite well; however, such an alloy will cast a smaller diameter bullet as the molds are sized for a harder alloy.

[Unclenick]

Bedbugbilly,

From your first post I thought the wadcutter was your main interest. The use of the TL grooves as crimp grooves matters there because it lets you seat one well out of the case instead of just flush with the case mouth (or nearly so) for light target loads. The 158 grain SWC already has its nose far enough forward that you won't need to use a lower groove for crimping, and if you try to it may stick out so far it comes out of the end of the cylinder, preventing it from rotating. Just depends on the cylinder and brass combination you choose.

In general, the round nose will have the highest ballistic coefficient, so it will fly the farthest. The wadcutter will have the smallest BC and shortest range, but the blunt nose cuts clean holes in paper and, seated out in a warmer load, the blunt nose makes it a very effective short range (50 yards and less) game stopper. The SWC is a compromise between those two extremes, having been designed by Elmer Keith to be a good game bullet shape, but not to have gross loss of range. The round/flat types were originally for ammunition that might be used in tubular magazines. They fed well, yet had enough flat that they wouldn't poke the primer in front of them during recoil. The flat on that Lee bullet, though, is much wider than the 19th century versions, and, as Zxcvbob suggests, looks like it would do what a semi-wadcutter would do on a target. It's just not a Tumble Lube design.

All the information about making the bullets fit the gun is to the point. With revolvers it's often the single most important thing to accuracy after being sure the chamber throats are uniform and not smaller than the groove diameter of the bore.

[mjes92]

I had similar questions when I started casting. The same group of guys gave me advice. Follow it.

158 gr SWC TL @ .358" is a great choice.
Slugging your barrels may confirm what diameter work best. .358" min.
Keep your lead on the soft side. I had more leading with harder bullets.
Roll crimp in the lube works great.
Trim brass the first time you reload. No need after that.
I like Clays from the Hodgdon.com website. Clean and low recoil.
Good luck