ATF Project Gunrunner - Page 80

MTT TL · February 10, 2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:

three other federal agencies knew about the operation and some of their agents tried to stop it, according to the former chief of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration in Tucson

Amazing. Everyone knew except for the AG? Even if I knew nothing else about the case I would fire him on the spot for being that obtuse and in the dark. Clearly none of his subordinates trusted him with that information and he was/ is a completely ineffective leader. It would be a virtual guarantee that he knows absolutely nothing about what is going in his law enforcement agencies.

**Tom Servo** · February 10, 2012, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Perhaps they (Republicans) are interested in stretching out the proceedings somewhat to have more of an election time impact (particularly if heads start rolling).

I've suspected something about the timing was amiss, on both sides, for some time. That said, let's be very careful about wandering into straight politics or general discussion of the election here.

C0untZer0 · February 10, 2012, 10:51 PM

To me the core issues have always been:

1) The use of a federal agency, federal resources and federal funding against the American people.

2) The existance of a federal agency that seems intent on undermining the constitution of the United States.

I think the DEA report is an important piece and it shows that things are coming unraveled for the DOJ.

They've been chanting:

It was a bad tactic started during the Bush administration and we've taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again - it's done, it's over all in the past, nothing more to talk about.

But as more and more people like Tony Coulson come forward, it should be harder and harder for Holder to say "it was just a mistake." With so many field agents and first line supervisors screaming that it was a tremendously bad idea... that it was dangerous, at some point their defense becomes implausable.

It's also going to unravel for them when Issa calls people like Elizabeth Kempshall to testify. How many people are going to tow the party line like Burke, Newell and Lanny Breuer?

alan · February 11, 2012, 12:08 AM

C0untZer0:

You mention Elizabeth Kempshall . at the possible risk of sounding "out of it" or worse, who is she?

Alan

C0untZer0 · February 11, 2012, 12:30 AM

From the Fox News article Dead posted:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...about-furious/

Quote:

Coulson claims he raised objections to then-DEA chief Elizabeth Kempshall, but was told it was taken care of. After attending a meeting with ATF agent in charge Bill Newell, Coulson said that’s when he and other agents “knew (Fast and Furious) was not some sort of benign, pie-in-the-sky publicity stunt. Guns were actually getting in the hands of criminals.”

Also... I'd like to find out who re-assigned Senior Agent Ed Hammel and what their reasoning was...

Quote:

Immigration and Customs Enforcement assigned agent Layne France to work alongside ATF in the operation. Sources say France replaced ICE senior agent Ed Hamel, who objected to the ATF ‘gunwalking’ strategy.

pnac · February 11, 2012, 04:20 PM

Quote:
Perhaps they (Republicans) are interested in stretching out the proceedings somewhat to have more of an election time impact (particularly if heads start rolling).

Quote:

I've suspected something about the timing was amiss, on both sides, for some time. That said, let's be very careful about wandering into straight politics or general discussion of the election here.

This makes about as much sense as the other theories out there, maybe more.

BORDER BATTLELINES
BOEHNER SABOTAGING FAST AND FURIOUS PROBE?
Exclusive: Tom Tancredo declares House speaker needs a backbone transplant
Published: 21 hours ago

http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/boehner-s...furious-probe/

alan · February 11, 2012, 07:26 PM

C0untZer0
Re post 1978, thank you.

Alan

jimpeel · February 12, 2012, 02:53 AM

Media Research Center (MRC) has done an analysis of the non-coverage of holder's testimony before the committee and it ain't pretty.

SOURCE

Quote:

ABC and NBC Anything But Fast and Furious On Gunwalking Scandal

Published: 2/8/2012 9:00 AM ET

By Geoffrey Dickens

Deaths, guns, whistle-blowers and the highest law officer in the land stonewalling a congressional investigation are the juicy ingredients of a story network news reporters would love to cover – if a Republican were in office. However, when Attorney General Eric Holder testified on Thursday (February 2) before a House oversight committee investigating Operation Fast and Furious, the news was completely ignored by NBC and ABC (there was one full story on Friday's CBS This Morning). The virtual blackout of Holder's testimony continues an overall trend of ABC and NBC burying one of the Obama administration's biggest scandals, despite continual coverage by their competitors at CBS, CNN and Fox News. (emphasis mine)

<MORE>

jimpeel · February 12, 2012, 03:31 AM

Apparently, Holder admitted during the course of his testimony that the administration is still working on reinstating the Assault Weapons Ban; but you can bet it will be on steroids.

SOURCE

Quote:

Holder tells Congress the Obama administration wants to ban guns

By Chris Cox Published: 9:29 AM 02/08/2012 | Updated: 9:13 PM 02/09/2012

...

In a rash attempt to deflect attention away from himself and his own irresponsibility, Holder let Congress know that the Obama administration is still working toward the day when it can reinstate former President Bill Clinton’s so-called “assault weapons” ban. According to Holder:

This administration has consistently favored the reinstitution of the assault weapons ban. It is something that we think was useful in the past with regard to the reduction that we’ve seen in crime, and certainly would have a positive impact on our relationship and the crime situation in Mexico.

<MORE>

alan · February 12, 2012, 11:24 PM

Re jimpeel in post 1981, on ABC and NBC Anything But Fast and Furious On Gunwalking Scandal, as it is descsribed, given the very long lived and well established anti gun attitude of media, is anyone surprised? Nobody is, I expected that that would be the case.

alan · February 13, 2012, 12:31 AM

jimpeel in post 1982 noted from elsewhere,

Apparently, Holder admitted during the course of his testimony that the administration is still working on reinstating the Assault Weapons Ban; but you can bet it will be on steroids.

SOURCE

Quote:
Holder tells Congress the Obama administration wants to ban guns

By Chris Cox Published: 9:29 AM 02/08/2012 | Updated: 9:13 PM 02/09/2012

...

In a rash attempt to deflect attention away from himself and his own irresponsibility, Holder let Congress know that the Obama administration is still working toward the day when it can reinstate former President Bill Clinton’s so-called “assault weapons” ban. According to Holder:

This administration has consistently favored the reinstitution of the assault weapons ban. It is something that we think was useful in the past with regard to the reduction that we’ve seen in crime, and certainly would have a positive impact on our relationship and the crime situation in Mexico.

----------------------------------

Does this come as a surprise to anyone?

jimpeel · February 13, 2012, 12:31 AM

Yyyyeppers!!!

KyJim · February 13, 2012, 07:16 PM

The desire to tighten gun laws was undoubtedly a driving force behind the whole Gunrunner debacle. Holder's statement about pursuing the assault weapons ban was undoubtedly a Freudian slip.

Bartholomew Roberts · February 14, 2012, 11:50 AM

There is a site called gopvalentines.com which has various politically themed Valentine's Day e-cards for people. Not to get political; but one of the Valentines is a picture of Eric Holder from the Fast and Furious testimony with the words "I must have missed your Valentine when it crossed my desk." written on it. Dark humor maybe; but I thought some here might appreciate it

HarrySchell · February 14, 2012, 12:03 PM

^^^Early on in his tenure, Holder was talking about reinstatement, but he got a lot of pushback and retreated. That he still mumbles about bringing it back, after this long, declining crime in the US, etc, is a measure of his bigoted views about armed citizens, and probably that his concern isn't about what an AWB can do to lessen crime rates.

The whole meme (which started up after Holder promoted a new AWB and then retreated) from Obama and Calderon down about how the cartels were arming themselves via US gunshops had only one logical conclusion, a new AWB. Unfortunately. too many facts got out and the meme died.

F+F is a bungled op, but to make "the facts" fit this narrative. It started with the desire to disarm citizens, as Holder discloses again in this quote, which Obama and cadre have had since well before he was elected.

The reappearance of Napolitano's treatise on right-wing threats to the state, after she was forced to withdraw it, is another indication of the popularity of AWB's with some factions in government.

None of this has anything to do with crime suppression, IMO, unless resistance to the expansion of state control is included.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 15, 2012, 11:36 AM

More contempt info:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/72893.html

**Tom Servo** · February 15, 2012, 11:49 AM

The problem with Issa's threat of a contempt charge is that he blinked.

He seems to have made the threat without being willing to carry it through. February 3rd came and went, and the documents still haven't been produced. His response was "we don't have forever," but that isn't the same.

At this point, many people are going to consider his threat hollow. Worse yet, it will reinforce the growing belief that this whole process is a petty partisan attempt on Issa's part to slander the sitting administration.

C0untZer0 · February 15, 2012, 01:12 PM

It wasn't as if the deadline came and went and DOJ ignored it, they asked for an extension, and Issa didn't exactly grant it, but also didn't initiate contempt proceedings. Slight difference.

But maybe it's time to write to our representatives expressing our opinion that Holder should be held in contempt.

csmsss · February 15, 2012, 02:20 PM

And Holder will ignore this latest missive and Issa will squawk again and Holder/Obama will yet again proclaim this is all a political, partisan, election year witch hunt (which in actuality it rather is, given the GOP's disinclination to take this to the mattresses).

C0untZer0 · February 15, 2012, 03:21 PM

Well, I wrote to my representative and Congressman Issa anyway.

Issa has a site where anyone, even people out of his district can write him a form e-mail:

http://issa.house.gov/index.php?opti...=597&Itemid=73

Quote:

Good day Congressman Issa,

You are not my representative, I live in Illinois, but I wanted to thank you for your hard work so far on the Fast & Furious gunwalking operation.

I do have a request however. I would like to see Attorney General Eric Holder held in contempt for the Fast & Furious cover up.

I believe the contempt proceedings should start immediately.

Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was murdered with weapons that were given to the Mexican drug cartels in a scheme hatched by Lanny Breuer, Dennis Burke and Bill Newell.

For Attorney General Eric Holder to be impeding the investigation into this is a travesty and he should be immediately cited for contempt!

Thank you so much,

I don't know what it will accomplish but at least they heard from me about it.

.

csmsss · February 15, 2012, 04:19 PM

CZ, I would love to be wrong on this. But I just don't see it. I think Issa and Grassley would love to take this fight as far as it can go, but they're being held back by their leadership who see anything beyond rhetoric as a losing political calculus. So that leaves us with this unsatisfying Kabuki dance.

alan · February 15, 2012, 05:29 PM

Tom Servo The problem with Issa's threat of a contempt charge is that he blinked.

He seems to have made the threat without being willing to carry it through. February 3rd came and went, and the documents still haven't been produced. His response was "we don't have forever," but that isn't the same.

At this point, many people are going to consider his threat hollow. Worse yet, it will reinforce the growing belief that this whole process is a petty partisan attempt on Issa's part to slander the sitting administration.
--------------------------------

Indeed, where exactly are the contempt citations?

alan · February 15, 2012, 05:55 PM

In my opinion, there is absolutely no question whatever that Holder, Obama too desired, desires a reinstatement of this so-called Assault Weapons Ban, with god knows how many new wrinkles. They will also do most anything they can to cover the screw-up that is Operation Fast and Furious. The claim that "it started in the Bush administration" is beside the point, for it continued in the Obama administration, and if not for the fact that the thing blew up in their faces, would likely still be running

Given that Obama once offered "there is a Second Amendment for Wyoming, and there is a Second Amendment for Chicago, how much more plainly stated could the man's position possibly be? He is anti gun, anti gun rights to the smallest bone in his nobody, and likely always was.

Signs proclaiming WET PAINT, aren’t kidding.

MTT TL · February 15, 2012, 10:16 PM

I think Issa is just as happy to wait until the general election season and then get nasty and start beating them over the head and shoulders with it. No need to press on right now when people might "forget" by election day.

Al Norris · February 15, 2012, 10:38 PM

Doesn't matter.

Congressman Issa directly challenged Holder. Issa blinked.

The letter merely confirms that this is all partisan political pandering.

February 13, 2012, 12:31 AM	#1987
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,530	Yyyyeppers!!! __________________ Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

February 14, 2012, 12:03 PM	#1990
HarrySchell Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2007 Location: South CA Posts: 566	^^^Early on in his tenure, Holder was talking about reinstatement, but he got a lot of pushback and retreated. That he still mumbles about bringing it back, after this long, declining crime in the US, etc, is a measure of his bigoted views about armed citizens, and probably that his concern isn't about what an AWB can do to lessen crime rates. The whole meme (which started up after Holder promoted a new AWB and then retreated) from Obama and Calderon down about how the cartels were arming themselves via US gunshops had only one logical conclusion, a new AWB. Unfortunately. too many facts got out and the meme died. F+F is a bungled op, but to make "the facts" fit this narrative. It started with the desire to disarm citizens, as Holder discloses again in this quote, which Obama and cadre have had since well before he was elected. The reappearance of Napolitano's treatise on right-wing threats to the state, after she was forced to withdraw it, is another indication of the popularity of AWB's with some factions in government. None of this has anything to do with crime suppression, IMO, unless resistance to the expansion of state control is included. __________________ Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will. — Mark Twain

February 15, 2012, 11:36 AM	#1991
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	More contempt info: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/72893.html __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

February 15, 2012, 11:49 AM	#1992
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	The problem with Issa's threat of a contempt charge is that he blinked. He seems to have made the threat without being willing to carry it through. February 3rd came and went, and the documents still haven't been produced. His response was "we don't have forever," but that isn't the same. At this point, many people are going to consider his threat hollow. Worse yet, it will reinforce the growing belief that this whole process is a petty partisan attempt on Issa's part to slander the sitting administration. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

February 15, 2012, 01:12 PM	#1993
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	It wasn't as if the deadline came and went and DOJ ignored it, they asked for an extension, and Issa didn't exactly grant it, but also didn't initiate contempt proceedings. Slight difference. But maybe it's time to write to our representatives expressing our opinion that Holder should be held in contempt. Last edited by C0untZer0; February 15, 2012 at 01:20 PM.

February 10, 2012, 10:51 PM	#1978
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	To me the core issues have always been: 1) The use of a federal agency, federal resources and federal funding against the American people. 2) The existance of a federal agency that seems intent on undermining the constitution of the United States. I think the DEA report is an important piece and it shows that things are coming unraveled for the DOJ. They've been chanting: It was a bad tactic started during the Bush administration and we've taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again - it's done, it's over all in the past, nothing more to talk about. But as more and more people like Tony Coulson come forward, it should be harder and harder for Holder to say "it was just a mistake." With so many field agents and first line supervisors screaming that it was a tremendously bad idea... that it was dangerous, at some point their defense becomes implausable. It's also going to unravel for them when Issa calls people like Elizabeth Kempshall to testify. How many people are going to tow the party line like Burke, Newell and Lanny Breuer?

February 11, 2012, 12:08 AM	#1979
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	C0untZer0: You mention Elizabeth Kempshall . at the possible risk of sounding "out of it" or worse, who is she? Alan

February 11, 2012, 07:26 PM	#1982
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	C0untZer0 Re post 1978, thank you. Alan

February 12, 2012, 11:24 PM	#1985
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Re jimpeel in post 1981, on ABC and NBC Anything But Fast and Furious On Gunwalking Scandal, as it is descsribed, given the very long lived and well established anti gun attitude of media, is anyone surprised? Nobody is, I expected that that would be the case.

February 13, 2012, 12:31 AM	#1986
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	jimpeel in post 1982 noted from elsewhere, Apparently, Holder admitted during the course of his testimony that the administration is still working on reinstating the Assault Weapons Ban; but you can bet it will be on steroids. SOURCE Quote: Holder tells Congress the Obama administration wants to ban guns By Chris Cox Published: 9:29 AM 02/08/2012 \| Updated: 9:13 PM 02/09/2012 ... In a rash attempt to deflect attention away from himself and his own irresponsibility, Holder let Congress know that the Obama administration is still working toward the day when it can reinstate former President Bill Clinton’s so-called “assault weapons” ban. According to Holder: This administration has consistently favored the reinstitution of the assault weapons ban. It is something that we think was useful in the past with regard to the reduction that we’ve seen in crime, and certainly would have a positive impact on our relationship and the crime situation in Mexico. ---------------------------------- Does this come as a surprise to anyone?

February 13, 2012, 07:16 PM	#1988
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	The desire to tighten gun laws was undoubtedly a driving force behind the whole Gunrunner debacle. Holder's statement about pursuing the assault weapons ban was undoubtedly a Freudian slip.

February 14, 2012, 11:50 AM	#1989
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	There is a site called gopvalentines.com which has various politically themed Valentine's Day e-cards for people. Not to get political; but one of the Valentines is a picture of Eric Holder from the Fast and Furious testimony with the words "I must have missed your Valentine when it crossed my desk." written on it. Dark humor maybe; but I thought some here might appreciate it

February 15, 2012, 02:20 PM	#1994
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	And Holder will ignore this latest missive and Issa will squawk again and Holder/Obama will yet again proclaim this is all a political, partisan, election year witch hunt (which in actuality it rather is, given the GOP's disinclination to take this to the mattresses).

February 15, 2012, 04:19 PM	#1996
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	CZ, I would love to be wrong on this. But I just don't see it. I think Issa and Grassley would love to take this fight as far as it can go, but they're being held back by their leadership who see anything beyond rhetoric as a losing political calculus. So that leaves us with this unsatisfying Kabuki dance.

February 15, 2012, 05:29 PM	#1997
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Tom Servo The problem with Issa's threat of a contempt charge is that he blinked. He seems to have made the threat without being willing to carry it through. February 3rd came and went, and the documents still haven't been produced. His response was "we don't have forever," but that isn't the same. At this point, many people are going to consider his threat hollow. Worse yet, it will reinforce the growing belief that this whole process is a petty partisan attempt on Issa's part to slander the sitting administration. -------------------------------- Indeed, where exactly are the contempt citations?

February 15, 2012, 05:55 PM	#1998
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	In my opinion, there is absolutely no question whatever that Holder, Obama too desired, desires a reinstatement of this so-called Assault Weapons Ban, with god knows how many new wrinkles. They will also do most anything they can to cover the screw-up that is Operation Fast and Furious. The claim that "it started in the Bush administration" is beside the point, for it continued in the Obama administration, and if not for the fact that the thing blew up in their faces, would likely still be running Given that Obama once offered "there is a Second Amendment for Wyoming, and there is a Second Amendment for Chicago, how much more plainly stated could the man's position possibly be? He is anti gun, anti gun rights to the smallest bone in his nobody, and likely always was. Signs proclaiming WET PAINT, aren’t kidding.

February 15, 2012, 10:16 PM	#1999
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	I think Issa is just as happy to wait until the general election season and then get nasty and start beating them over the head and shoulders with it. No need to press on right now when people might "forget" by election day. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

February 15, 2012, 10:38 PM	#2000
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Doesn't matter. Congressman Issa directly challenged Holder. Issa blinked. The letter merely confirms that this is all partisan political pandering.

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