Sporterized milsurps

Ky_Collector · November 8, 2014, 08:26 PM

Is it worth trying to restore a sporterized rifle back to it's original configuration? I have an Enfield MK4 No1 and a MK1 No3 that are both sporterized. I was thinking about trying to restore them but wasn't sure if you could even get the original stocks for them. It seems like they come in 4 or 5 pieces. Would it be too expensive to try and do this?

tahunua001 · November 8, 2014, 09:22 PM

not so with enfields. every factory of the dozens spread throughout the world made them a little differently so there is a lot of handfitting and such involved. a couple years back a friend of the family invited us down to the basement where her husband's old gunstore/gunsmith inventory sat. in it there was a single springfield action, a completely stripping P14 action(which I'm still kicking myself for not grabbing) and about a dozen enfield actions 2 number 1s and the rest were all number 4s. there were probably 30 different stocks and 2 very large boxes of handguards to pick from. my little brother attempted to piece together a working enfield from all of the parts. he got a bolt to fit the action but not one of the stock sets fit that particular rifle even though most were for number 4 actions. in the end he had to grab a ramline sporter stock still in the box sitting in a corner. I also attempted to build a number 4. the only bolt left was completely ceased with rust and has a broken extractor. I was able to find a stock to fit but was missing the butt plate and the forend had no stock band to go with it. I never did find a handguard to work with so I sportered the forend and stole the buttplate off a different butt. by contrast when I was working with the springfield action of of the 20-ish stocks she had for that, over half of them fit the action, all of the handguards fit, and none of them needed any special fitting. some guns, like the springfield can be restored if you find a decent deal for an economically reasonable price, others like the enfield can not.

Ky_Collector · November 8, 2014, 09:29 PM

I was afraid of that. I had been looking for stocks on the internet, but could not find any. I want an original MK4 no1. I asked about trading them in on one, but the owner said that he probably would not be able to sell them so he turned me down.

Thanks for the reply.

tahunua001 · November 8, 2014, 11:12 PM

welcome. yeah sporterized enfields are everywhere, I recall seeing magazine advertizements from the not so distant past that charged $11 for an original or $14 for a pre-sporterized version, a lot of guys either went pre sporterized or saved 3 dollars by doing it themselves and getting a cheap hunting rifle out of the deal. nobody really looked at them as collectables until about 10 years ago and by then, most were hacked up.

**44 AMP** · November 9, 2014, 11:22 AM

Too expensive? That depends on your budget more than anything else.

A restored milsurp will have the look of the original, but never the value to a collector. A poor condtion original is worth more to a collector than a "like new" restoration.

Some people restore sporterized milsurps (as much as possible) just to have a gun with the original look and features. This is fine. But some do it and sell them as originals, at collector prices, and this in not fine, or ethical.

Is a restored milsurp worth more than the sporter? That depends on who is buying it.

Ky_Collector · November 10, 2014, 07:41 PM

I was looking at restoring it back to "original" condition knowing that it wouldn't be the original stock that came with it. I never sell any of my firearms (drives my wife nuts), so I wouldn't be trying to sell it as original. I keep documentation on all of them, so later on after I am gone, my kids and grandkids would have everything I recorded about my firearms, including any changes that I had made to them.

chiefr · November 11, 2014, 10:09 AM

I have rescued several 98 Mausers. The ones I rescued had the original action, barrel, and original sights and floorplate. No drilling or tapping on the action, but the original stocks were severely bubba'd.

I was fortunate to pick up several original laminated stocks with bands and all hardware at a gunshow a while back and the 98s look great other than a few mismatched numbers.

mapsjanhere · November 11, 2014, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Some people restore sporterized milsurps (as much as possible) just to have a gun with the original look and features. This is fine. But some do it and sell them as originals, at collector prices, and this in not fine, or ethical.

As especially American guns were made from exchangeable, unnumbered parts, how does an ex-sporter put back into a correct stock, handguard and rings differ from a surplus that never got it's stock hacked off but got refurbished twice over the last 100 years? As long as you don't cheat by changing markings or trying to hide incorrect components I don't see any issues with trying to restore a sporter back to the original configuration.

**44 AMP** · November 11, 2014, 11:51 AM

There is no issue with restoring a sporter back to GI configuration. In some cases it can be virtually undetectable.

The issue is originality, and whether or not someone is paying for that. And I don't mean just all originally "correct" parts & markings. A dedicated collector makes a distinction between a piece that is "in original configuration" and one in "original condition".

An example would be a GI 1911, maintained by the Army with 1911A1 parts.
Or a Garand, with a mix of Winchester & other makers parts. Totally authentic, and correct, but not "original", the way they left the factory.

Collectors are funny about some things, to some of them, a gun that while totally correct in parts and appearance can be two different level of desirability. One that has never been changed can be on one level, and one that was changed and restored, on another level. This can make a difference in the price to a collector.

Claiming the gun has never been changed (and priced accordingly) when it has been changed, and restored is fraud. Claiming it has been restored (and putting any price you want, on it) is not.

madmo44mag · November 11, 2014, 12:02 PM

This is a tricky and sticky subject.
A lot has to do with the collector and what his / her definition of restored is.
I am a collector and my definition varies from other collectors but many also agree with my definition.
An all original non refurb is always worth more than a refurb and that is universal. What get tricky and sticky is what is considered a collectable referb.

mapsjanhere · November 11, 2014, 12:04 PM

I still don't see it. Any surcharge for "originality" as compared to "correct" would have to be made using external documentation (like "this is a picture of my grand dad being issued this rifle in 1917, been on our wall ever since"). Adding fake documentation to a gun has nothing to do with whether it once was a sporter or not, it would be just as fraudulent if I'd made that claim for a "correct but no idea of it's history" gun.

**44 AMP** · November 11, 2014, 12:16 PM

And that's why collectors paying for "originality" aren't just going to take your (or my) word for it. Some kind of proof (acceptable to the buyer)is needed to justify paying the premium.

Can this be faked? Sure. Is it fraud if you do so? I think so.

November 8, 2014, 08:26 PM	#1
Ky_Collector Member Join Date: November 3, 2014 Posts: 28	Sporterized milsurps Is it worth trying to restore a sporterized rifle back to it's original configuration? I have an Enfield MK4 No1 and a MK1 No3 that are both sporterized. I was thinking about trying to restore them but wasn't sure if you could even get the original stocks for them. It seems like they come in 4 or 5 pieces. Would it be too expensive to try and do this?

November 8, 2014, 09:22 PM	#2
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	not so with enfields. every factory of the dozens spread throughout the world made them a little differently so there is a lot of handfitting and such involved. a couple years back a friend of the family invited us down to the basement where her husband's old gunstore/gunsmith inventory sat. in it there was a single springfield action, a completely stripping P14 action(which I'm still kicking myself for not grabbing) and about a dozen enfield actions 2 number 1s and the rest were all number 4s. there were probably 30 different stocks and 2 very large boxes of handguards to pick from. my little brother attempted to piece together a working enfield from all of the parts. he got a bolt to fit the action but not one of the stock sets fit that particular rifle even though most were for number 4 actions. in the end he had to grab a ramline sporter stock still in the box sitting in a corner. I also attempted to build a number 4. the only bolt left was completely ceased with rust and has a broken extractor. I was able to find a stock to fit but was missing the butt plate and the forend had no stock band to go with it. I never did find a handguard to work with so I sportered the forend and stole the buttplate off a different butt. by contrast when I was working with the springfield action of of the 20-ish stocks she had for that, over half of them fit the action, all of the handguards fit, and none of them needed any special fitting. some guns, like the springfield can be restored if you find a decent deal for an economically reasonable price, others like the enfield can not. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

November 8, 2014, 11:12 PM	#4
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	welcome. yeah sporterized enfields are everywhere, I recall seeing magazine advertizements from the not so distant past that charged $11 for an original or $14 for a pre-sporterized version, a lot of guys either went pre sporterized or saved 3 dollars by doing it themselves and getting a cheap hunting rifle out of the deal. nobody really looked at them as collectables until about 10 years ago and by then, most were hacked up. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

November 9, 2014, 11:22 AM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	Too expensive? That depends on your budget more than anything else. A restored milsurp will have the look of the original, but never the value to a collector. A poor condtion original is worth more to a collector than a "like new" restoration. Some people restore sporterized milsurps (as much as possible) just to have a gun with the original look and features. This is fine. But some do it and sell them as originals, at collector prices, and this in not fine, or ethical. Is a restored milsurp worth more than the sporter? That depends on who is buying it. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 11, 2014, 11:51 AM	#9
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	There is no issue with restoring a sporter back to GI configuration. In some cases it can be virtually undetectable. The issue is originality, and whether or not someone is paying for that. And I don't mean just all originally "correct" parts & markings. A dedicated collector makes a distinction between a piece that is "in original configuration" and one in "original condition". An example would be a GI 1911, maintained by the Army with 1911A1 parts. Or a Garand, with a mix of Winchester & other makers parts. Totally authentic, and correct, but not "original", the way they left the factory. Collectors are funny about some things, to some of them, a gun that while totally correct in parts and appearance can be two different level of desirability. One that has never been changed can be on one level, and one that was changed and restored, on another level. This can make a difference in the price to a collector. Claiming the gun has never been changed (and priced accordingly) when it has been changed, and restored is fraud. Claiming it has been restored (and putting any price you want, on it) is not. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 8, 2014, 09:29 PM	#3
Ky_Collector Member Join Date: November 3, 2014 Posts: 28	I was afraid of that. I had been looking for stocks on the internet, but could not find any. I want an original MK4 no1. I asked about trading them in on one, but the owner said that he probably would not be able to sell them so he turned me down. Thanks for the reply.

November 10, 2014, 07:41 PM	#6
Ky_Collector Member Join Date: November 3, 2014 Posts: 28	I was looking at restoring it back to "original" condition knowing that it wouldn't be the original stock that came with it. I never sell any of my firearms (drives my wife nuts), so I wouldn't be trying to sell it as original. I keep documentation on all of them, so later on after I am gone, my kids and grandkids would have everything I recorded about my firearms, including any changes that I had made to them.

November 11, 2014, 10:09 AM	#7
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	I have rescued several 98 Mausers. The ones I rescued had the original action, barrel, and original sights and floorplate. No drilling or tapping on the action, but the original stocks were severely bubba'd. I was fortunate to pick up several original laminated stocks with bands and all hardware at a gunshow a while back and the 98s look great other than a few mismatched numbers.

November 11, 2014, 12:02 PM	#10
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	This is a tricky and sticky subject. A lot has to do with the collector and what his / her definition of restored is. I am a collector and my definition varies from other collectors but many also agree with my definition. An all original non refurb is always worth more than a refurb and that is universal. What get tricky and sticky is what is considered a collectable referb. __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

November 11, 2014, 12:04 PM	#11
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	I still don't see it. Any surcharge for "originality" as compared to "correct" would have to be made using external documentation (like "this is a picture of my grand dad being issued this rifle in 1917, been on our wall ever since"). Adding fake documentation to a gun has nothing to do with whether it once was a sporter or not, it would be just as fraudulent if I'd made that claim for a "correct but no idea of it's history" gun. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

November 11, 2014, 12:16 PM	#12
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	And that's why collectors paying for "originality" aren't just going to take your (or my) word for it. Some kind of proof (acceptable to the buyer)is needed to justify paying the premium. Can this be faked? Sure. Is it fraud if you do so? I think so. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.