Help me get tighter groups

[robfromga]

Working on some hand loads, shot from a AR 1x9 twist Carbine. Using 55gn fmjs, H322 and H335, BLC2 also. Now maybe its the gun? At 100yds they are all within a 4" area and a few 3/4" apart. Shot using a 4x optic so its not the easiest to see at 100yds. Shoot from a bag(a towel ) Am I just a horrible shot? I guess I can try to shoot some factory rounds through it to see, havent done that in a while.

The brass is full sized, trimmed and deburred. Brass is within spec, as is the OAL.

Pro's chime in!

[Shoney]

robfromsc
You can have the most accurate load in the world, and it will not overcome an unaccurized weapon or a bad shooter.

Visit with a good gunsmith on what is needed to accurize your weapon as a first step.

When you go shooting, have a friend put the rounds in the chamber. Several dummy cartridges can be used or no round in the chamber at all. The idea is for you not to know when it is live or dry fire. You will see for yourself what bad habbits you have and need to work on, when you pull the trigger on several empty chamber.

Then work up your accuracy load.

[rgitzlaff]

You might want to have a someone else shoot your rifle, preferably someone experienced to see if you can eliminate the shooter. Also, 55gn FMJ bullets are not known for thier accuracy, you might want to upgrade to something a little better, like matchkings or something. My guess is that it is your technique and level of shooting skill. Get someone experienced to help you out and practice a lot. I think you'll see your groups shrink regardless of ammo. Then you can start playing with loads, until then you are chasing your tail.

[robfromga]

thanx shoney!

Im trying to take my reloads out of the equation. And really want it to be me and not a gun problem

[HiBC]

This is all my wild imagination,so none of it may be true.

If I may guess,is this a free floated H-bar or an M-4?

It you look at the M-4 bbl,you will see it is real skinny ahead of the chamber,then thicker for the gas block and has some cuts for a 203 graenade launcher to clamp on.I won't say none of these bbl's are accurate,but perhaps the contour is not the first choice for a tackdriver.It is a battle carbine bbl and maybe the expectation should be less than 3" @ 100 ydsI don't doubt many will do better.

I would expect MOA or less from a quality free float H-bar.


Your optics? 4x is not bad.But,not all optics are equal.4x could be an ACOG,
a Weaver,a Tasco,a Chinese generic?
Not saying anything disrespectful about your scope,but some can add to your group size.A little demon called parallax,which will make your crosshairs move if your eye is in a different spot.

The rolled towel.A makeshift,inconsistent front rest can add some size to your group.A plastic bag of rice in a sock will make a small rest bag.Put it on something stable.add another bag under the butt.squeeze it a bit to fine tunen elevation.

Is the scope on a flat top or a handle? Is your face connected to the rifle or are you bobbleheading around trying to find the scope field?

Do you see the crosshairs on the target as the rifle fires? can you say " I was a touch low and left?

You might find 3/4 inch with match bullets,and 3/4 in in a spotweld on the stock to minimize parallax and 3/4 in in focusing on keeping your eyes on the reticle as the gun fires and 3/4 in in a better rest.Thats 3 in.Maybe?

[SKULLANDCROSSBONES65]

G'day. My solution is to get closer to the target. It usually helps me.

[Dingoboyx]

Might be a bit harsh to 'eliminate the shooter'

From what I have heard he is a nice bloke and he's only asking a question

Gawd I am just Soooo funny (in my mind) :barf:

Muzza

[robfromga]

Wow! I havent been here too long and you guys are already talking about eliminating me



http://www.millettsights.com/control...t09/dms_reddot

HiBC, thats the optic used. Its a M4. I would really like it to be me and not the rifle. And while I dont expect this thing to me a tackdriver..seems maybe it would be a little tighter. One of the things that pops up is the handguard, its not a full floater, its a 2 peice unit and my understanding is that they will alter how the gun shoots? Since its clamped around the barrel and not letting the barrel float.

[rgitzlaff]

Hilarious you guys, you know what I meant. I mean eliminate the shooter from the equation... eliminate from the possibility that the shooter is the one causing the bad groups. Guess I'll have to read my posts a little more carefully now

[Alleykat]

I have to use much stronger optics than 4X to get good groups @ 100 yds. Also use aftermarket match triggers. Shooting off a towel isn't going to do wonders for you, either.

[T-Mac]

LOL!
Love those Aussie responses. Heh heh heh.

As for the poster-
I kind of doubt it is your loads.
Try some factory loads just to be sure...but then try a good rest (borrow, buy...whatever).
I know 4X scope isn't a lot... but I also know a whole lot of folks who can shoot better groups than what you got... with open sights....off a good rest.
Maybe the scope is screwed up or the mounts?

[Sport45]

Where are you resting the rifle? Try getting the sand bag as close to the action as you can.

[wzkrbzkt]

This is my first post. Looks like a good group of folks here. Anyway onto robfromsc's issue:

If you think that you are the problem, try some of the following tips.

Shooting for groups is not like plinking. In order to shoot consistent groups, you have to be consistent in every possible way every time you shoot. In other words, perform every single movement the same way every time you squeeze the trigger.

Also, try to control your breathing. Try squeezing the trigger at different times during a breath (i.e. inhale - shoot; exhale - shoot; inhale - then exhale slowly and in the middle of exhaling, hold your breath and shoot). Also try this...

This next one is more pronounced with a stronger optic, but you might be able to notice at 4x... Without firing a shot, sight your target and focus on your breathing. While just breathing in the shooting position you will start to see the scope "jump" every time your heart beats. Notice the rhythm and squeeze off the shot between beats. If you can see the reticle moving when your heart beats, that can easily translate into 1" - 3" at 100 yards.

With your rifle being a 1 in 9, you might also want to try going with something a little heavier than 55 grain. (like 60 - 70 grain bullets: anything heavier that this should be run through a 1 in 7). I recently loaded some 60 gr. V-max with H322 for my 1 in 9 AR, and the groups tightened considerably over the 55gr. rounds I had loaded.

Hopefully, some of this will help.

If I am out of line for a first post please feel free to chastise me.

[robfromga]

wzkrbzkt... good first post! Thanx, not out of line at all!

I have worked alot on my breathing, Ive started to fire at the top of my breath. I have a nice natural pause then. I think your right on the heavier projectiles. Too bad I have a ton of 55gn fmj's

[Sport45]

The 55gr FMJ may not be the best for your 1 in 9 twist barrel, but they should be doing better that 4" at 100 yards. When I shoot the Winchester 55gr FMJ bulk bullets through my 1 in 7 twist barrel I can hold 2" to 2-1/2" at 100 yards with open sights off sand bags. I know shooters who can do the same prone or kneeling.

As others have said, work on your technique. Get a good cheek weld and try to make every shot exactly the same. Try a box of factory 55gr FMJ for comparison. Don't look at the 2 or 3 shots that hit close together. View a 10-rnd group as a whole and only exclude the fliers you can call before looking at the target.

wzkrbzkt - Welcome to The Firing Line! Great first post. I suppose the handle means something, but danged if I can figure it out.

[HiBC]

OK,I looked at the link to your scope.It is a Millet 1 to 4 designated Marksman scope.I cannot say much about the scope as I have no experience with Millet scopes.However,if I had to guess,I would guess the are OK.They are not bottom of the barrel.It might be an excellent scope.

What I will say is it is a very balanced match for an M-4.

Everything is a trade off.You chose the light,handy,portable M-4.That scope is right.

Now,this is all speculation and opinion.I have a 16 in H-bar,free floated.

It shoots very well. It is heavier than an M-4.

I will suggest,for at least the next few thousand rounds,let yours be what it is.Bring yourself up to its potential.

If it has a horrible trigger,you might correct that.There are a number of options,but a Rock River 2 stage National Match trigger is not a bad choice.

There are options with some of the buttstocks and attachments ,along with ring height that will help you establish your consistant face contact,with your eyes finding the scope.That is a setup issue.

And,certainly use ear protection,if you are not.Perhaps someone knows the best books or DVD's on shooting the AR well.

Sometimes,if the flash suppressor has a small,(1/4 in ) hole through,it can be an issue.The ones with ahole closer to 3/8 can group better,sometimes.

I personally would not pursue free-floating an M-4 skinny bbl.I have not tried it.

After you fire a few thousand,maybe you will decide a free float H-bar is what you want,and can expect 1 MOA groups from.You can buy a bbl and forend and convert.You are not stuck.

Wildly speculating,it would seem like 2 to 2/12 in groups would be in the typical range to hope for.

You have some other things you can work with to get there.

You know,that means the worst shot the rifle delivers would be 1 or 1/1/4 in from point of aim @ 100 yds,but a fair number of shots will be closer.

You aren't going to be bench rest in the field.Likely that rifle will shoot better than you can hold it still.If you call a coyote inside 200 yds he is yours

Try some heavier match or varmint,rather than mil grade bullets,as was mentioned.Good luck

[robfromga]

Thanx HiBC! The optic isnt the best, but like you said, its a trade off. The gun most likely shoots better than I.

My intent of this post was to drum up some advice. If I was jacking up something with my loads? Rifle issue, or if the shooter needs to be elimanted

[wzkrbzkt]

robfromsc -

Just remember, it's pretty difficult for someone to analyze your shooting technique, or your reloading process over the internet.

Try to post some specifics about things such as:
Rifle - Brand, model, is it stock or has it been modified?
Loading - Brand of bullet, OAL, charge weight, etc.

With specifics, more people will be more able to give more worthwhile advice (in theory).

I just pretty much touched on a few of the points that most new shooters and quite a few "experienced" shooters fail to notice.

One more thing I should have mentioned is parallax. Do your best to eliminate parallax in your scope. Get a good cheek weld... then move your eye back from the scope... you will see the "visual opening" start to close up at some point... That dark ring around your field of view should be even all the way around... Now move your eye closer to the scope again watching to be sure that "darkness" around the edge stays even all the way around... when that dark ring just disappears, that is where your eye should be "every" time your put your cheek to the stock.

Sorry if you're already aware of all this, but I don't know your experience level.

[robfromga]

wzkrbzkt---

along time ago i learned that a fool can ask more questions than a wiseman can answer. Thank you.

Heres what i shot the day in question, from my best memory. My load info isnt near me right now..

It was through a delton AR, delton lower, bushmaster upper, RRA trigger. 1x9 5.56 barrel.

The loads were hornady 55gn fmj's in PMC brass that was full sized,swaged and de-burred inside and out. Pushed with H322, my start loads were 21.2gns, moving up in .3gn increments. 22.7gn showed the tightest grouping and that was the top of my load range. My data showed 23gns being the top of the charge. OAL is not known, I did measure out the rounds and they were good, but I dont have that exact data in front of me.

Thanx again!!!

[dc.fireman]

Rob -

From the USMC manual, on rifle marksmanship ( from the '70's, not the one from modern day) - 'BRASS'.

1. Breathe
2. Relax
3. Aim
4. Squeeze
5. Surprise!

a few minor tricks I've learned from a buddy of mine, who has served as a military marksman for the last few years:

1. Consistent cheek weld to the stock, is critical - the cheek and stock should touch each other in the same spot, each time, every time. Go to your local drug store, and buy a small pack of moleskin (in the foot care section).
Have a buddy help you with this - put your face on the stock where it's most comfortable to you -lift your cheek off the stock slightly - have him stick the moleskin to the stock at the point where your cheek bone was just in contact with it - from this point on, every time you slide behind the sights, you should feel that piece of velvety fabric hitting your cheek bone...

2. Relax - You should be in a comfortable shooting position - comfortable enough to fall asleep on the rifle, cheek welded to the stock. I've found that using a removable bi-pod on the front end, and multiple sandbags on the rear end allows me to do just this...

3. Aim at the bottom of the breath - it's where the natural pause is located. The average adult breathes 12-24 times per minute, under normal circumstances. As you shoot, your heart rate starts to increase - allow for this natural increase, and go with it. If you notice you're too excited, after say 10 or so shots, slow down - don't come off the stock, just time it out...breathe a few times in and out before squeezing the trigger again.

4. Squeezing the trigger is just that - a squeeze - slow, and steady constant pressure. Jerking the trigger means you're excited. According to Fred, of Freds M-14 Parts fame, this is the single most detrimental habit some of us have. If it's coupled with an inability to keep your eyes open during firing, it may be a problem - it can be overcome once you're conscious of it. Finger follow through is just as important - keep squeezing the trigger even after the shot has gone off, following through all the way through to the rear, until it stops. Then allow it to reset, and begin again.

5. Surprise! Everyone who has ever taught/coached/advised me on the principles of shooting, has always said the same thing - the shot should come off as somewhat of a surprise - the trigger should break like a glass rod.

Your AR/M16 is capable of much better groups - it was designed for engagements at the 200 meter and under range, and has a kill range of somewhere in the 600 to 800 meter range, depending on the barrel length.
Your load is similar to the standard military load - and while it's not the 'one ragged hole' type of load, it has certainly lived up to the US Military's standards for around the last 20-25 years or so.

The next time you head out to the local gun show, or store, or even looking around on the 'net - see if you can locate the Army Technical manual for the M16A1/A2, M4A3 variants for your rifle - it contains a wealth of information on common sight issues, and you may be able to further pinpoint any issues.

I would come off the scope the next time you go out, and switch back to iron sights - at 100 hundred yards, using a target for 100 yards, you should be able to bring those groups back in tighter - plus, you'll have one less potential problem out of the equation.

Hope this helps - it wasn't meant to be a lecture, or nearly this wordy...I know sometimes when I have an issue, I've forgotten some mundane thing, and reading it again brings it to light...

Good Luck!

-tc

[robfromga]

DC Fireman...nice first post!

Im thinking that I need to get the scope foward 1/2 or so. Im long and lanky and i feel I need a different mount to get a better view. The only issue with only irons at 100yds is that Im blind so its really a pain in the ass to see that far out.

I actually have the USMC manual saved to my desktop Ive been practicing breathing/timing and can see where that would make a huge difference.

Again thanx for all the great posts!

[dc.fireman]

Nice looking rifle!

[hardhit]

Is there any fouling in the barrel copper or powder?

Is every thing tight, screws mounts ect

A lighter trigger would make’s a big difference, something in the ounces and not pounds, heavy triggers can make you pull shot or anticipate the shot.

Shoney has high lighted a good training idea for not anticipate the shot and trigger control.

When you go shooting, have a friend put the rounds in the chamber. Several dummy cartridges can be used or no round in the chamber at all. The idea is for you not to know when it is live or dry fire.

[Unclenick]

Unless the optics are actually faulty, I would not pin the blame on them. I have shot many a sub-moa 10-shot group with iron sights over the years from prone position using a sling, shooting coat and mat, with my body being the only "rest". I admit it was easier when my eyes were younger and my belly smaller.

The old timers used to say they could shoot about as well with iron sights as they could with optical sights when light conditions were good. That's position shooting, of course, including prone with sling. Shooting from the bench benefits from optics, but it isn't a gimmie. Magnification in optics isn't really important, IMHO, until you are shooting below about 3/4 moa. You need to be consistent. That's what matters.

Most fixed-parallax compensation is for 100 yards, though I don't see mention of it in the instructions for your particular scope? You can tell easily. Set the gun on bags or cut a couple of big V's in a stiff cardboard box for a gun cradle so you can set the gun up pointing on target and have it hold still when you let go of it. Once it is so set, look through the scope without touching the gun anywhere. Move your head left or right or up and down just enough so your line of sight comes near the edge of the scope's image and see if the reticule stays on the target as you do this? If so, you have parallax compensation for the range the target is at.

The Hornady FMJ's are probably decent, but they have a slight boattail and a cannelure, not leaving lots of bearing surface in the neck. You might want to try a flat base with no cannelure as a match round? The Sierra 53 grain MatchKing is a good choice for test ammo in that weight range. It's personal prejudice, but some guns are more finicky with ball powders than others, so I would get some H4198 and work up weighed accuracy loads with it and that Sierra bullet. You should land at least one good load in the 20.0 to 21.5 grain range. It depends on the cases, and they do need to be the same. Short light bullets tip easily during loading, so I would fire test loads by loading singly. Leave the action open and let the barrel cool a few minutes between shots.

[HiBC]

hardhit,on one small point,I must disagree.

There are some rifles where a trigger pull in oz's might be appropriate,but an M-4 would not be one of them,imo.

The 3 !/2 lb match grade triggers are about right.

You know,with a very light trigger,the forward inertia of the bolt carrier coming to battery can nudge the rifle forward a bit.The finger is still in contact with the trigger.he result can be unintended discharge,sometimes,more than one.